stupid breeders why cant you just leave things be

[Carpe Serpentis]

The snake in question was quarantined for three months. In fact, he did not show any signs of illness until TEN MONTHS after purchase. Until then, he was eatingm shedding, pooping, growing, THRIVING.

Even excellent quarantine practices are not foolproof when we're talking about a pathogen that can be present for a snake"s entire life without seeing clinical signs, while the snake sheds pathogens.

You hit the nail on the head my friend. Many pathogens are silent killers. Many can be tested for via a simple gram stain, making a culture slant, etc. You also run the continued risk of introducing pathogens from food sources which can be as varied as the places that you get your food for your snake. Some, might wish to use a regiment of prophylactic treatment for parasites and such.... this is also debatable as prophylactic treatments can lead to more resistant strains over time. Think MRSA, VRSA, etc.

 

[Shiari]

You don't understand the term "Typhoid Mary" do you, Carpe?

That is a person or in this case animal that is, themselves, perfectly healthy and never showing signs of illness, but who is a *carrier* of the disease causing organism. They can spread disease while they themselves NEVER show signs of illness.

So stop carping on proper quarantine. I DID proper quarantine. He was healthy, and growing like a weed until his ONE and ONLY regurge!

 

[Carpe Serpentis]

I have worked in every department of human pathology in the military... histology, laboratory, morgue, etc.... I have even worked a bit making slides for animals. So, yes... I understand a little bit about microorganisms.

 

[Carpe Serpentis]

While your asking, I also have experience in radiology so I can x-ray snakes, etc. to check for skeletal deformities, etc. if need be.

You don't understand the term "Typhoid Mary" do you, Carpe?

That is a person or in this case animal that is, themselves, perfectly healthy and never showing signs of illness, but who is a *carrier* of the disease causing organism. They can spread disease while they themselves NEVER show signs of illness.

So stop carping on proper quarantine. I DID proper quarantine. He was healthy, and growing like a weed until his ONE and ONLY regurge!

 

[Shiari]

Then you should understand why what you are stating is wrong. Everything is covered in potential pathogens, most purely opportunistic. To say that what happened could be prevented with a proper quarantine procedure is entirely wrong in the case of something like Cryptosporidium which can be subclinical for decades... or show clinical signs within a month of infection.

 

[Carpe Serpentis]

Cryptosporidial oocysts (about 6 µm diameter) can be detected in feces. Modified acid fast staining helps to detect them. Due to inconsistent shedding, four consecutive negative faecal tests are necessary to establish a Cryptosporidium-free snake.

 

[Shiari]

Cryptosporidial oocysts (about 6 µm diameter) can be detected in feces. Modified acid fast staining helps to detect them. Due to inconsistent shedding, four consecutive negative faecal tests are necessary to establish a Cryptosporidium-free snake.

Failing to take into account that snakes can show false positives from fecals due the acid-fast method, and most PCRs not differentiating species, thereby counting Cryptosporidium parvum which is a non-infective to reptiles but is found in rodents.

Also, due to inconsistent shedding... even 4 consecutive negative fecals would likely fail to prove non-presence, especially in sub-clinical individuals.

 

[Carpe Serpentis]

Antibody tests are also valuable detection tools if you wish to go that route.

 

[Carpe Serpentis]

:eatsmileyYes, I am well aware of false positives. Titers, etc. Now, how about them hybrids?:cheers:

 

[Carpe Serpentis]

3 basic crosses are done by a hybridizer. Your initial outcross. Sibling crosses which can be largely a gamble. Backcrossing to parents to test for traits and to help stabilize traits. These 3 basic crosses are done over and over until the desired phenotype has set itself into your lines. This is why hybridizing rocks to me. It requires real work, dedication to ones lines over time, and goals that may be visually seen and or seen in the temperament of a breed one is working towards. Some traits can be selected for right away and others will not be able to be seen quite so readily.

 

[Shiari]

And those are currently commercially unavailable and phone calls to UC Davis, Texas' A & M universitry and Purdue resulted in no one being able to find any companies in the USA that still have the serum ELISA testing.

I've been researching crypto to hell and back for the last 3 weeks attempting to find treatment/testing options. Don't treat me like I've not looked into this thoroughly. My hatchlings and juveniles are on route to UC Davis as we speak, where they will be examined for the organism and their research facility will begin work on a serpentis-specific PCR if they find any of those animals are infected. I am also going to be discussing with the ultrasonographers that come to the veterinary clinic where I work about their thoughts on being able to identify as yet sub-clinical crypto cases in adult snakes via ultrasounds.

 

[Carpe Serpentis]

Its not the easy crosses that get me truly stoked though, its the crosses that involve a species that may produce progeny with limited fertility or even those that may involve a possible bridge species to bring in outside genes into a hybrid that would not be possible otherwise. Yea, 3 way hybrids are what I truly enjoy dreaming about.:bounce:

 

[Carpe Serpentis]

Who is treating who like they don't know anything? Respectfully, I'm done with this portion of the discussion with you. I respect that you may have knowledge about a specific organism. This still does not change the fact that there are universal precautions and methods for trying to keep populations free of pathogens in a controlled environment. No one ever said they were 100% fool proof or that anyones methods were 100% fool proof. As you pointed out, even lab tests are not 100% fool proof. There are false positives. I know this as well as I've studied parasitology, etc. I've seen cases of malaria missed where I have gone back to review the slide someone else reviewed and found malaria that they miss. I get all of that.

You don't understand the term "Typhoid Mary" do you, Carpe?

That is a person or in this case animal that is, themselves, perfectly healthy and never showing signs of illness, but who is a *carrier* of the disease causing organism. They can spread disease while they themselves NEVER show signs of illness.

So stop carping on proper quarantine. I DID proper quarantine. He was healthy, and growing like a weed until his ONE and ONLY regurge!

 

[Carpe Serpentis]

For what its worth, I sincerely appreciate the work you are doing regarding crypto. I love the fact that you are helping to further more specific testing for this organism as well. There is a gap between your expertise and mine and I respect that gap. There is also much I could probably learn from you if given the time. :cheers:

And those are currently commercially unavailable and phone calls to UC Davis, Texas' A & M universitry and Purdue resulted in no one being able to find any companies in the USA that still have the serum ELISA testing.

I've been researching crypto to hell and back for the last 3 weeks attempting to find treatment/testing options. Don't treat me like I've not looked into this thoroughly. My hatchlings and juveniles are on route to UC Davis as we speak, where they will be examined for the organism and their research facility will begin work on a serpentis-specific PCR if they find any of those animals are infected. I am also going to be discussing with the ultrasonographers that come to the veterinary clinic where I work about their thoughts on being able to identify as yet sub-clinical crypto cases in adult snakes via ultrasounds.

 

[Shiari]

Who is treating who like they don't know anything?

Let's see...

How about all your (regurgitated verbatim from vet-wiki) suggestions for testing options that are not helpful for C. serpentis?

How about your "quarantine! OMG fixes everything" attitude a couple pages back?

Again, if you don't introduce a pathogen there won't be any. There are standard precautions to ensure that pathogens are not introduced into a community. One of these precautions include isolating new arrivals for a given period of time before introducing into the general population.

Yeah, that doesn't *work* and now you are backpedaling on this statement.

How about trying (and failing) to impress me with all you've done, medically? I'm an RVT. You making slides does not indicate knowledge of different types of testing procedures, their limitations, nor the pathology of a condition nor the epidemiology.

Done with this as well. I've had a thoroughly crappy month and you trying to say that if I had just quarantined better it would have been a-okay is too aggravating.

 

[Carpe Serpentis]

I'm sorry you feel as you do. Yes, quarantining and testing for organisms does work. Does it work 100% of the time.... tell me something that does. As for backpedaling, I am doing no such thing. I explained, my experience is largely human pathology, parasitology, etc. The tone of my message was supposed to be one of a jovial nature. It was not interpreted that way by you. I get that. I understand your feelings concerning your snakes and your losses as well. I get all of that feeding into this as well no doubt. And yes, I still stand by my statement that if a foreign microorganism, parasite, etc. is not introduced then there will not be one in that population. You have obviously found that to be true yourself. 10 months you had your snake and then it died. Obviously, a quarantine longer than 10 months would have saved your snakes. My logic still stands.

 

[Shiari]

Tell me, how long do *you* quarantine your snakes?

We're talking about an organism that can lie dormant for DECADES. How the hell long am I supposed to quarantine new arrivals? Forever?

 

[Carpe Serpentis]

Yes, you have me laughing with the below question and your point is very well taken. Please understand, I feel your pain and I genuinely admire what you are trying to do. I sincerely feel that if you heard my comment as it was meant to sound and did not read it that you would feel different right now. I feel a bit of anger and or hurt in your message directed at me and I can understand why. So, can we shake hands? Or are we going to sit here and uke01: over what could otherwise be a beginning of a new friendship.

Tell me, how long do *you* quarantine your snakes?

We're talking about an organism that can lie dormant for DECADES. How the hell long am I supposed to quarantine new arrivals? Forever?

 

[SnakeAround]

So, how do these people prevent outbreaks of crypto running through their entire collection if they cohab?

I do think in general we are less strict with stuff over here, I'm pretty sure many people do wash water bowls with the same sponge all the time and many do not wash or disinfect in between every single snake handling. We do not all use separate feeding tubs for each snake either. Still I know about just one crypto outbreak in a bull snake collection over the past 7 years that I've been active in the Dutch snake world. But maybe I missed some or people keep them secret, I don't know.

For me it is common sense to separate an animal that seems not ok and that is co-habbed. If the ill one needs treatment, I treat the room mates too if the vet says it does no harm. If the vet says it is better to wait for symptoms in room mates, I wait for symptoms.

I myself did have a outbreak of another bacteria, but most of the victims were in a large rack with individual housed parents. I did keep juvies together with 2 or 3 at the time but none got infected.

Yet thinking back about snakes in my collection which got ill, in the period after the large outbreak I mentioned till now, I have to conclude that I had two cases of flagellata and one of upper respiratory infection (gopher snake). All three animals where housed separately (one was co-habbed a few months before the flagellata infection, both the other cornsnake and the gopher were never co-habbed).

I do keep a new snake alone for a few months first if it is intended to be co-habbed. I think any more serious breeder/keeper does that over here.

I do understand that not co-habbing and being very strict with hygiene is optimal for preventing outbreaks of infections. An any outbreak that can be prevented is important, but to me it does not look like being less strict and co-habbing increases the amount of cases significantly. I think that if outbreaks would have raged through Dutch collections, we would have changed our minds about co-habbing meanwhile.

 

[Carpe Serpentis]

This cohab issue seems to be almost as heated as they hybridizing issue, but to marry the two.... you can not breed for snake temperaments that can cohab unless you actually cohab those snakes.
Again, and someone correct me if I am wrong, but the noncohabing snakes... those that eat each other are largely hybrid induced... meaning pure corns are generally able to be cohabed. At least, this is the way it was explained to me. With that said, I believe that you can select for cohab temperaments regardless of whether the snake is a hybrid or not. Transmission of disease... yes, it will always be more of an issue with cohabit snakes regardless of ones precautions. For my personal goals, I would love to hybridize for cohabitant hybrid snakes that clearly showed a new phenotype that also bred true.

BloodyBaroness, see above. Since we were talking about co-habbing and cannibalism, I took this as a suggestion that co-habbers won't tell if cannibalism happens in their collection but say it works just fine. I did however reread it and now I understand that he thinks that maybe co-habbing causes things to happen or change they do not notice. However, that goes for any snake keeper. Who knows what is going on unseen to non-co-habbers in their vivs? They can only watch and check their snakes to see if they are healthy/thriving, just like co-habbers can. Who knows what living in a plastic tub does to a snake unseen by its keeper? If non-co-habbers are assumed to be able to know when their snakes are thriving, why would co-habbers not?