Ultra Mystery...

[Rich Z]

The subject at hand are the Ultra Hypos and Goldust Corns. I have heard these Grey Rat Snake rumors for a very long time as many others have. I know for a fact that I have seen it in writing when we first started the Hypo Test Breeding Project. It was discussed and there was no real proof, or it was a naturally occurring hybrid, or I don’t see it at all in the Ultras that I have and on and on. “If I don’t know then they are pure“. What do you think now?

Same thing I thought yesterday, last week, and last month.

Are they any different today than they were a year ago?

Nope. Nothing changed as far as those snakes are concerned.

Do you not know that hundreds if not thousands of Ultra decedents and Creamsicle descendants have been sold as Space Garbage through the wholesale market and mixed in with our Corn Snake Mutants?

Nope. I don't "know" that at all. And neither do you. They certainly have not been mixed into the colonies under my control.

How can anybody say they still don’t know, so therefore they are pure? That is the only absurd thing that I keep hearing.

Is this more, or less absurd, then someone saying "I don't know, so they MUST be hybrids"?

Many of us have been caught up in the Hypo Tests, the Ultra Mystery with Amel and the beauty of the Goldust Corns, and now we act like we get hit in the face by a sledgehammer. Everybody will have a little different opinion on the subject and we will all decide which information we want to use or discard so we will feel comfortable in justifying what we are doing. I am not one to rely on ignorance to come to any conclusion, which in my opinion is what “If I don’t know” equates to. A little common sense and deductive reasoning of the entire situation gives me no other position to take, except that our Corn Snake Mutants are not pure corns by my definition. So what right! Will any of us get a reality check? I seriously doubt it. We will continue down the same road as before. There will be Pure Okeetee Hunt Club Corns, Pure “If I don’t know” Corns, Creamsicles and now Goldust and/or Ultra Hypo Corns. I see Corn X “just about everything” hybrids as well. I am sure that none of them become space garbage and get bred to our Pure Mutant Corns either.

Kind of over-reacting a bit, aren't you Joe? Sledgehammer? Not from what I have read. I have seen no common sense applied, nor any deductive reasoning that can be used to reach any conclusion at this point. You are basing everything on a single email from Mike Shiver? That is reasonable, common sense, and an application of deductive reasoning? I thought "facts" were a prerequisite for such terms. What are your FACTS, at this point? What is it that you KNOW, beyond a shadow of a doubt, to be true? Then start from there to come up with a conclusion based on common sense and deductive reasoning. Not a conclusion based on suppositions, inductively creative reasoning, and rumors.

 

[ecreipeoj]

I found this email that will not answer any more of the questions we have about each individual Ultra Hypo, but I think it answers some of the questions that we have that relates to the topic at hand. This was one of those emails that had went back and forth and I ask some questions in color within his email, so I could clarify some of the info Falcon was providing. I put a P: in front of the question and I put a F: in front of Falcons responses so it will be easier to read. I will post it as it was, in my next response but copies do not always transfer to this forum like you have it written on a word processor or from an email.

Hi Mike,

Hey Joe
I will attempt to breed my male hypo het for amber to a nice female amber this spring so I should have both ambers and hypo for sale...P: I can't wait.
F: keep in touch
The story on the MM hypo gene is a wild caught female from the tampa area is were it originated. P: Where did you get it?
F: Wild caught...
I had the original animal but that was many years ago. P: Did she die or did you sell her? If yo sold her, who did you sell her to?
F: Don't remember who bought her,
P: What did you breed to the original Ultra female?
F: Normal corns and Grey rat/corn crosses...
I have never breed the hypo to any of the other hypos. P:How about Homo hypos like, a ghost?
F: Never...
Mike did use some animals from Rich to get the ambers. Shoot him an email and he will be able to tell you more about the ambers. P: Thanks, Mike was very helpful.
Mike said that he got his from Andy Barr. Do you know Andy's email address. Who else did you sell offspring from the original Ultra to?

F: Andy got his from me...No email

P: I really appreciate your responses. I will keep in touch to see what you get this spring from your Ambers.
Joe

 

[ecreipeoj]

fyi...



----- Original Message -----
From: Joe Pierce
To: Mike Falcon
Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2004 2:54 PM
Subject: Re: Message about: 1.1 Gray Banded Kingsnakes Alterna Phase >2003<


Hi Mike,

Hey Joe
I will attempt to breed my male hypo het for amber to a nice female amber this spring so I should have both ambers and hypo for sale...I can't wait. keep in touch

The story on the MM hypo gene is a wild caught female from the tampa area is were it originated. Where did you get it? Wild caught...

I had the original animal but that was many years ago. Did she die or did you sell her? If yo sold her, who did you sell her to? Don't remember who bought her,

What did you breed to the original Ultra female? Normal corns and Grey rat/corn crosses...

I have never breed the hypo to any of the other hypos. How about Homo hypos like, a ghost? Never...

Mike did use some animals from Rich to get the ambers. Shoot him an email and he will be able to tell you more about the ambers.Thanks, Mike was very helpful.

Mike said that he got his from Andy Barr. Do you know Andy's email address. Who else did you sell offspring from the original Ultra to?
Andy got his from me...No email

I really appreciate your responses. I will keep in touch to see what you get this spring from your Ambers.

Joe

 

[ecreipeoj]

The original one look like a cross between a red and a yellow rat snake a was caught in Hillsborough county (Tampa). It had very little black and was very yellow.I might have a picture somewhere in the archives. Sometime in the early 90's is my best guess. The one thing I do recall is the males are always nicer and more brightly colored than the females.
Hope this helps....


----- Original Message -----
From: Joe Pierce
To: Mike Falcon
Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2004 3:17 PM
Subject: Utlra or M & M Hypo


Hi Mike,
Someone ask me when the Ultras were discovered and by who. I knew the who part but not the when. When did you have the original wild caught female approximately? Was she a hypo or Het Hypo?

Joe
The story on the MM hypo gene is a wild caught female from the tampa area is were it originated. I had the original animal but that was many years ago.Mike

 

[Jimmy Johnson]

this goes back to my earlier question

how "pure" is pure.

I had the original animal but that was many years ago. P: Did she die or did you sell her? If yo sold her, who did you sell her to?
F: Don't remember who bought her,
P: What did you breed to the original Ultra female?
F: Normal corns and Grey rat/corn crosses...

This says that the original female was bred to a grey rat/corn cross.
That would be a 50/50 to the original Ultra female making the original F1's from that female 75/25 corn.
This was supposedly the early '90's right?
So, if each subsequant generation was bred to "pure" corns that would mean that by now these snakes would be at a minimum of 98 % corn snake. And more likely to be 99% Corn.
that is 98 to 99 % pure corn.
is 100% the only allowable percentage. Do we know this exists?
What would DNA tests of these 98 to 99 % "corns" show them to be? My guess would be corn snakes.
Are there tests to determine if they are pure corn snake?
If so, why don't some of you breeding these snakes pitch in and have some of them tested?
Seems like that would clear things up.
To some of you this may sound like bull $#!+ but I am not a biologist, scientist, taxonomist or formally educated herpetologist so to me these seem like legitimate questions.

 

[cornsnake00]

Without accurate record keeping you will never know the family tree of the animals in question! So unless you want to start the AKC of corn snakes, it will be word of mouth. You look at the snake and determine to the best of your ability if you want to continue the breeding of said snakes. It will always be a big question mark now! Have fun in the process if that is possible. I know I'am.

 

[Clint Boyer]

Yes that would 'seem' to be right, IF we knew for sure that they were only bred to other snakes that didn't carry any grey rat genes.

I think Rich hit the nail on the head by asking for facts. We could hypothisize all day long but that proves nothing.

 

[SODERBERGD]

My ultra motleys. . .

I've read some of the information about the ultras on this thread and I have some ideas and evidence to share.

I know nothing of the origins of this line. It sounds to me like the ultra hypo gene and the so-called "ultra ambers" might not necessarily be the same thing. I don't know for sure, but I have to say that I see NO traces of other snakes in mine. I have five adult ultra motleys and produced just one that was amberish in color. Since most of these originated from 'Shiver', I suspect there could be that amber thing going on somewhere in the genes of mine.

As you all know, I have been breeding frosteds and creamsicles for a long time. In addition, I have seen many jungles and other snake hybrids. The one thing thing they all had in common was their generally larger size. Even breeding them for many generations, they laid fewer eggs and the hatchlings were huge. Same with the adults. Larger than pure corns.

I got one pair of ultra motleys last winter and bred them this spring. The babies were "squatty" looking. The adults were/are a little too heavy for their length, but both were around 30 inches long. I thought long and hard before breeding them at this size and did it anyway. I've had them for about eight months or so now and I don't think either that male or female have grown more than one inch. They eat and eat, but are not growing. I wouldn't have thought much of this if not for getting another trio a few months ago. Literally, all of this trio are the same size as the first ones and don't appear to be growing. I wouldn't dare feed them anything larger than a freshly weaned mouse. They have not refused food nor puked, but they just aren't large enough to safely eat adult mice. The guy I got the trio from got 33 eggs out of the two females. He said they were very small eggs and the two of them that hatched were very small snakes. Even smaller than the four I hatched from my ultra motleys that were very small for corns.

I guess my initial observation from this line besides seeing no markings that hint they have anything but corn in them, is that they are the inverse of what I usually see from hybrid colubrids. These are small snakes and at this time show no promise of getting much larger. None of mine have any frosted look to them at all. None. I'm not saying these are or aren't pure corns, but I've had lots of hybrid colubrids and these don't show a single trait of the others I've had. 33 eggs between these last two females is alot for snakes their size. Both females are just over 30 inches long. Yes, they were bred small, but I'm not sure they're gonna get much larger even if they'd not been bred this soon. They just have substandard anatomical proportions for a corn and are very small if they are indeed hybrids.

Like Rich, I've had and seen all manner of head and body shape and size. While these are smaller and built slightly different from my other types of corns, they do lack the abnormally large size of all the other hybrid colubrid races I've kept and bred. The trait that most tells me these might not be anything other than pure corns is the facts that they have no other colors or markings typical of hybrids or other races of rat snakes AND the babies are all alike in one clutch. I see many varying degrees of color and pattern in my clutches of hybrids. Even F-3 are highly variable within a clutch. Some lots of white. Some little. Some strang head patterns and some not. In the ultra motleys I have, they're all the same appearance.

Ultras? The ultra "hypos" I've produced this year from several clutches are virtually identical to any corn snake I hatch. No mismarks. No extra white or black stippling. No unusual head patterns. Even in third generation frosted corns, I see very non-corn head markings. Same with belly markings. These ultras I produced this year have totally typical corn snake belly markings.

Just letting you know about my experiences and observations with the ultra motleys I have and the ultra babies they produced. Except for that "look" the ultra babies have this year from the ultra motleys bred to non ultras, they appear in every other way to be pure corns. Any breeder that has produced hybrid rat snakes will tell you they can spot one from across the room at a reptile show. I know I can. I'm excluding the creamsicles here even though they hatch out generally twice the size of my pure corns. I can spot a line-bred third generation frosted corn a mile away. Those are definitely NOT pure corns and they show it every generation in my experiences.

I'm definitely not supporting the notion that we ignore any proof that they're not pure corns. I just want to keep things straight. It sounds to me that even if Shiver was a credible resource, the family tree seems to have branched AFTER the ultra motleys were discovered. Perhaps, the base genetics of this line are pure corns and were splintered off after that. Shrug? I think it would take many more successive, line-bred generations of these to see what I see today. Perfectly marked corns. As Rich pointed out, Kathy Love is the most honest person in this business and if anyone but her had introduced the sunkissed corns, I'd call them hybrids. Not only are most of mine meaner than rattlers, but I don't have a single one that has typical corn markings.

We all know what the answer to all this is, but it could get ugly if we dabble in it. DNA testing. We just might find out that many of the "corns" we have are not so pure. The first bloodreds I saw and some I have now have dorso-lateral stripes. Kinda reminds me of yellow rats. Losing their juvinile blotches in favor of stripes. Excepting this SHIVER situation where there is eveidence of hybridization, we'd be forced to face another way of looking at corns. Either we freeze all snakes (or their decendants) found not to be pure corns OR we accept the fact that they're pure enough for what we're doing. Paraphrasing Chuck, "do we call collies 'wolves' because we know it's in their lineage hundreds of generations ago?". If you pour a tablespoon of milk in a swimming pool, do we say it's a milk pool? The milk is there, but the water looks like that of other swimming pools. And right you are, Clint. If we know for sure they're not pure corns, we shouldn't call them pure corns, but we're probably in for some shocking revalations if/when we do some DNA testing on some of our traditional corn snake lines.

 

[ecreipeoj]

All I can say at this point is thank god this is a free country and we are all initial to our own opinions.

My involvement in the Hypo Test Breeding Project that a few of us started last year has caused me to try to find answers to many of the unanswered questions that we all had not much more than a year ago about the various Common Named Hypos. It seemed to me, that many of the questions that we had should have had answers to them, but for some reason no one did. Many people thought that the answers could not be found, but I believed as many other people believed that they were wrong.

Many of us began asking questions and started investigating any lead that we could come up with to try to get some answers to questions that each of us had. This forum has been an excellent place for us to discuss the issues and exchange information. We arranged some Test Breeding for the following season, to test the compatibility of some of the hypos that had never been tested or we had no knowledge that they had been tested.

Obviously, we have obtained different information from the same people and many of the statements are not consistent. A great deal of the problem is the position the person is in when the question is ask and their perceived expectation of how that information will be used and received. Many people are dead set against hybrids or any amount of hybrid blood in their Corns, which I completely understand. My Corn Snake colony is as pure as the next. If Falcon or Shivers were placed in a situation where they knew they would get pounded for selling a Corn that had hybrid blood in them, but did not tell someone, it is very possible that they went into a defensive mode and did not tell the complete truth. Once they trapped themselves into this incomplete truth or lie, it gets harder and harder to change your position on the subject.

Sometimes when questions are ask in the right way, in a very non offensive way, and it comes from an anonymous person, the answers you get may not be the same as when someone is staring you in the face ready to pounce on you or if that someone has already been told a different story.

I have no underlying goal when I post on this forum, except as most of us do, we see something that we want to express an opinion about or we disagree with something that has been said, or we have information that is contrary to what has been posted. I know I have been spending way too much time typing when I should be feeding snakes.

I have all of the genetic known hypos, including Ultras. I have two female Butter Motleys out on breeding loan to have them bred to an Ultramel Motley het Caramel which should produce some Goldust, hets or something similar. I have an Ultramel het Lavender that I plan on breeding to an Opal. I am not going to change my plans with the Ultras at this time. I really don’t know what I will do, but I do know when I have babies for sale that I will somehow let people know what I know about them. The Goldust are very beautiful Corn Snakes, people can buy them for what they are or pass on them, just like everything else.

 

[Serpwidgets]

So, after sorting through that retoric, I find that you won't lie about a hybrid you're selling but you won't tell unless they ask?

The question is moot because I don't sell hybrids.

Anyway, if I were to purposely hybridize my snakes it would be because I want to create something that nobody else has. There's no good reason for me to sell any of the offspring to someone else because they won't see the same value in it that I do (otherwise why are they not doing that cross themselves) and I don't want to have someone else beating me to the finish line on my own projects. It's not worth the measly 20 or so dollars that most people are willing to pay.

Today I was at Tinley Park. I saw, among other things, creamsicles and "Frosted snow" which were both "hybrids" and neither of which were labeled as "corns" or "non-corns." But it was obvious, since they were among all the other cornsnakes, that they were being presented as cornsnakes.

It is not a matter of what I would or would not do. It is a matter of what happens constantly.

Not many people who are small-time breeders come onto the forums to find out the exacting "taxonomy" of their snakes. I meet a lot of people at shows who don't read or post on forums, or even use email. Go around the shows asking everyone who has hypos which type of hypos they are. Most people don't even know which ones they have, and many are still surprised to hear that there is more than one type of hypo (or they think you're an idiot to believe such a thing.) As far as a lot of people are concerned, they bought cornsnakes, they are breeding cornsnakes, and all of their offspring are cornsnakes. They just breed them and sell them at small shows, give them to friends, or wholesale to resellers or local pet shops. It HAS to be that at least some of those corns work their way back into the general population. I think it's ridiculous to assume that doesn't happen.

It doesn't make a difference what I think or what I say I would do in a hypothetical situation because I'm not producing hybrids, nor am I selling them. But a lot of other people are. Whether or not you want them to or whether or not you like it or I like it or I don't care, it happens. Does it "ruin" corns? I dunno, if you look at a snake on a table and think it has the attributes you want to propagate in a line of snakes, then it obviously has value to you. What's the problem? Oh yeah, it's got some stigmatized label on it. It has "cooties" or whatever.

I don't think wanting to keep corn lines pure is absurd.

Like I said before, to me the reaction of suddenly being turned off by what was otherwise a very beautiful and desireable line of snakes, just because someone attached the label "hybrid" to them, is the same as suddenly falling out of love with someone because you found out something about the race of one of their ancestors. I think that IS absurd.

I also think that expecting corns to be "pure" is absurd.

I don't think that you really disrespect the people using the word pure.

I don't disrespect people just for disagreeing with me, but there are many ideas that I definitely do not respect. The whole "pure" thing is one of them.

 

[Rich Z]

Whoa, dude!

I think I understand Carlos' reaction to the information from Don.

Years ago the original Calico line was reported to be caused by a genetically defective skin disease of the animals displaying that trait. These animals would look like normal corn snakes until about 3 years of age, then would break out into blisters that left white colored scar tissue. Poor health and then death accompanied this outbreak of discoloration. There is a thread somewhere else on this site, so please do a keyword search on "Calico" to find it and read further details.

So, with that information in mind, I do not believe Carlos froze that snake because he thought it was a hybrid. I believe he froze it because he felt it was a carrier of a genetically transmitted skin disease that he did not want to be further propagated.

My opinion, of course, since I don't know Carlos' mind, but knowing the details of the animal and what Don probably told him, it is pretty easy to make an educated guess at what went through his mind.

Carlos, if I am wrong, tell me and I will just remove this post with an apology.

 

[snakepimp]

Oh, thanks Rich, I don't mean to get so hot.
I hope you are right.
If so, my apologies are extended humbly, and I would request my post removed as well...but why would he bring up the "calico" disease in this thread? he referred to it in the same breath as the ultras, it seemed to me.

 

[cka]

Jeremy, I'll quote the famous Mexican philosopher, Cheech Marin..."Responsibility is a heavy responsibility"

What Carlos did, either due to the blister skin condition or the fact the snake was a hybrid, was called culling...Breeders of all animals do it; you remove the undesirables from a given gene pool...It is most likely a topic for another thread also so I'll leave it at that, except to say that in no way am i trying to disrespect your post above, in the respect you have for the animal Carlos put down..Sure, he could have given the snake away, but who is to say that the family doesnt give it to joe, who gives it to sally, who gives it to matt, the newbie enthusiastic corn snake breeder...It was his responsibility, however harsh it sounds

 

[Carlos]

Rich. You know that you are so right with that post, you know me for several years now. Thank you for the clarification I'm really appreciated that.

Jeremy. I don't think that is correct that you coming to this forums and try to batch any people without make sure that you know what you are talking about,
You say that my main concern is the MONEY, you are so wrong, If that was or is my main concern I will be breed that female and try to compensate the money that I waste on her. I take the decision of froze her because I felt that she was a carrier of a genetically transmitted skin disease that I don't want to be further propagated,
So please next time read and inform you better before you make any other statement about the integrity of any other people. Don't use this forums to try to get attention batching some one, Grow up and pull your pampers out.

Jeremy. I'm only bring the calico motley to this thread because is one of the lines that Mike Shivers was seling without telling any one that some of his motleys are carrirers of that genes. THAT WAS MY ONLY INTENCION.

Carlos Lahitte

 

[snakepimp]

I pulled my post

Sorry to misinterpret you, I thought it only looked like a calico, but was part of the ultra line. My humblest apologies are yours. If you would return the favor and pull your angry post, it would be appreciated.
Again, I am very humbled and sorry for this misunderstanding

I do understand culling, I just didn't understand that this animal was diseased.
I apologize Carlos.
I guess I am proof of my signature quote in this case. :sidestep:

 

[Kat]

This is an email I got from one of the persons I sold ultramel offspring to (the offspring sold were normal phenotype)... it was in response to my offer to reverse things in light of the possibility of non-corn ancestors... (the other parent was a lavender directly from Don S.):

Things have been really busy around here and unfortunately, I haven't been able to keep up with any of the "deep" subjects, which is a shame because those are the only ones that really interest me. To tell you the truth, I suspected they were hybrids since the moment they got here. There are just enough differences to cause doubts in my mind. I thought about emailing you about them, but it was just my opinion and I didn't want to risk offending you if I was wrong. I had decided that I had at least 2 years to come to a conclusion on them and left it at that. Obviously, I don't have a problem with hybrids, I even own a pair of hypo F2's from a Hypo Corn X Grey Rat pairing. Funny enough, these ones look more like corns than the two I got from you. I have no problem with them, and I do feel kind of bad about NOT saying something to you, I was really torn about what the right thing to do was since I wasn't sure if my opinion was correct. No need to apoligize, I am happy with them and can't wait to see what they can make. We are all on a learning curve here. ;-)

 

[Kat]

I don't like crossposting, but duplicating posts is kind of a waste of data-space... Anyway, here's a link to what JY had to say:

http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=595114,595308

-Kat

 

[Vinman]

So now we know what and why Carlos did what he did lets get back to the main topic of this thred. Well , well , well so what do we have here does any rember me Vinman.I warned everbody out there a few months ago about corns being contaminated with other snakes genes. I have seen 3/4 corns that look like pure corns so what about 7/8 & 9/10 ect. So he who laughs last laughs the loudest. So now that all these big breeders got a lot time & money invested in the ultra morph it's ok now that it's a cross. Does that mean it's now ok to cross a everglads rat to a corn so you can get rid of all the black in a blood red or a sunglow. How about we take gray rats cross them to Miami & candycanes or yellowrats to caramels & ambers? I can go on for days. If we don't do something now the corn snake if its not it already , will be the canary of the snake world in another word a mutt.This is why I stayed with my old stock or bought new corns from rich, I just wont put any new genes or new color morph in my stock without doing my home work first. I almost bought the ultra good thing I did not. By the way I have pure Amber motleys with the first hypo gene. No ultra blood!!! I like to know my corns are corns not just a hybrid snake like house cat or a dog. What happnes when someones cross bred corn that the person thinks is pure releases babies in to the wild or one that escapes and contaminat the wild population. We all know what the right answer is search , seek & destroy. Remember this is the native home land of the corn snake once contaminated in the wild, pure corns will be gone for ever so lets protect them. Vinman -Defender Of The faith

 

[cka]

uhhh I don't rember you, but it is something that has been discussed for years...DOTF...lil too much Judas Priest back in the day, huh, bunky???

 

[gardenmum]

I warned everbody out there a few months ago about corns being contaminated with other snakes genes. I have seen 3/4 corns that look like pure corns so what about 7/8 & 9/10 ect.

Like this is new knowledge, gleened from you? I would think that most of us have figured this out long ago and know that it is a problem that everyone needs to be aware of. I didn't know we were all ignorant of it till you posted?

So he who laughs last laughs the loudest.

I didn't know this was a laughing matter.

So now that all these big breeders got a lot time & money invested in the ultra morph it's ok now that it's a cross. Does that mean it's now ok to cross a everglads rat to a corn so you can get rid of all the black in a blood red or a sunglow. How about we take gray rats cross them to Miami & candycanes or yellowrats to caramels & ambers? I can go on for days.

Who said, anywhere on this thread, that anyone, including the "big breeders" was going to just say it's ok because they have invested time and money into it? I don't remember seeing that anywhere and I have been following this thread for some time now. If you take some time and if you can read English well enough, you will find that the discussion is on what is to be believed as the truth. Since no one has any proof positive yet, anyone can conjecture all they like.

If we don't do something now the corn snake if its not it already , will be the canary of the snake world in another word a mutt.

As you already said, you have seen a lot of 3/4, 7/8 ect. cross corns. So, what do you propose to do about it, Oh Defender of the Faith, go door to door and kill anyone who has hybrids????

This is why I stayed with my old stock or bought new corns from rich, I just wont put any new genes or new color morph in my stock without doing my home work first. I almost bought the ultra good thing I did not. By the way I have pure Amber motleys with the first hypo gene. No ultra blood!!! I like to know my corns are corns not just a hybrid snake like house cat or a dog.

Well, I happen to like house cats and dogs, and I happen to like the Ultra gened corn and I also happen to like the Okeetee Locale corn. If you want to keep your stock within its own sphere, that is your decision to make, and if someone else doesn't, that is their decision to make. But jumping in here as the "defender of the corn" and saying "I told you so" seems strange. We all have known this for a long time.