Ultra Mystery...

[Vinman]

J.P.one of my favorite bands also, you for got Metallica search, seek & destroy lets get back to real issue hybrid corns

 

[cka]

Oh OK lol, Dianne and I OBVIOUSLY missed the sarcasm in your post...my bad, what were we thinking?...I mean, it WAS meant to be funny, right???...you know, like funny ha ha, just lighten the moment a bit....because everything being discussed is serious to those who've spent a lot of time and effort in this project and that ignorant semi-rant you just posted above COULDN'T have been just as serious?...

 

[cka]

ps I'm also done, as this detracts from the original thread topic and my apologies to those involved...

 

[TBurkeIII]

i just wanted to thank everyone who has contributed to this thread in terms of understanding the ultra mystery a little bit better. i am new to the corn snake world, and just recently picked up some corns that were being labeled as T+. upon further investigation i believe them to be ultra hypo's. my understanding of the ultra hypo is the incomplete dominance of the sharing of the same alele. i am trying my best to grasp this whole topic, and the only way i have really learned is from the experts. if there is any info that someone can help me with in terms of my theory on the incomplete dominance i would really appreciate it.

 

[Vinman]

I caught a lot heat a few months back. A lot of people who did not know that were hibrid corns out there, and wonder their animals were pure and not just talking blood reds. I talked about all corns . the reason why I mentioned that 3/4 , 7/8 , 9/10 corns look pure is because Don S. said he has some crosses and they looked different than pure corns this is not always the case . I like how Garenmum quoted a lot things I said buy conventiently left out the part contaminating wild populations . Nobody said to go to anybody house, but do the right thing. Dont breed these animals .Gardenmum it Don S. was the one who said about it being no big deal about if the ultra gene was a cross so you need to reread all the post all over again .

 

[Rich Z]

As far as having money invested in the Ultra/GoldDust/Paramel project, heck I could flush them all down the toilet right now and it wouldn't make a dent in the number of animals I am working with, much less any financial consideration.

Quite frankly, I am not jumping just when anybody posts a rumor somewhere and automatically accepting it as the truth. I consider the credibility of someone who tells me something is NOT a hybrid, so why wouldn't I do the same for someone who makes an unsubstantiated "out of the blue" claim that something IS a hybrid? Especially when this person has for YEARS claimed that it is NOT a hybrid? At which point was this person telling the truth? Or does he even KNOW the truth? I have run the BOI for long enough to know that there are all kinds of motivations for why people do the things they do. Not saying this is the case with Mike Shiver, but I have seen my fill of people who like nothing better then to just cause trouble and conflict. And, in my opinion, right now there is an unknown motivation behind this "revelation" about the Ultras, which makes me skeptical of accepting anything at face value.

What I do about the Ultras/GoldDusts/Paramels will be based on my determination of all of the public facts as well as my own experience based observations of the animals in question. This has served me well in the past, and I am not about to give up on that methodology just based on a single email to someone.

Oh, one last thing. It has been interesting to speculate that this Paramel trait would not have even been noticed if it had not been for the interesting effect it has when combined with the Caramel gene. How many other combined genes will have an interesting effect with this? How many will have an effect that is too subtle to be noticed? How many animals were sold over the years that quite likely are carrying this bloodline? Heck, how long ago did Glen Slemmer do his emoryi/corn snake breedings and how many of those animals were produced and sold all throughout the world? My original Snows came from Tom Crutchfield. My original Amelanistics came from Hank Molt. This was back in the late 70s into the early 80s. What was the source of THOSE animals to those dealers? :shrugs:

When someone says "pure", what exactly are they referring to? Absolute, or best efforts?

 

[Vinman]

Rich I was not talking about you are a pureist like me and you were the one who informend me to the problem many years ago. You got me on the right tract ,thank you .So Rich what do we do ? Do we except the corn as mutt like a canary or what.You were the one who got me started on the purity of ones stock or do we cross other snakes into corns for there desired trates . It's got to be one or the other ? Vinny Ritchie

 

[gardenmum]

Vinman, I did not conveniently leave out the issue of releasing corns or poss. corn crosses back into the wild. I had something I needed to do so tied up my remarks. But I can get more explicit on this issue.

What happnes when someones cross bred corn that the person thinks is pure releases babies in to the wild or one that escapes and contaminat the wild population. We all know what the right answer is search , seek & destroy.

I think we are a bit beyond that at this point. I would say, that I would be 100% sure, that there have been MANY releases in the Corn snake range. To think otherwise would be admiting living in Never Never Land. And, I would bet to say that it has been happening for many years now, by those who don't know what else to do with them and those that think they are "giving back" to nature.

So, the question you have is "what happens"? Well, you tell us. What happens? You say: "Search, seek & destroy". WHAT??? Who, how? Do you propose we all go out in the fields and hack snakes that don't "look" like they belong? Let's get real here. And how about the snakes people own. You going to "search, seek & destroy" what YOU deem as unpure? Door to door, table to table at shows? Really, this is so ubsurd as to be laughable.

If you have an opinion on one side of the other, that's fine, but to come in here slamming people and bragging that you were the "only one that knew & told us so", is perposterous. I don't believe in selling hybrids as anything other than hybrids but I think people have the right to breed them if they so choose, we do live in America. I, myself, am "in holding" on the Ultra's because nothing I have read or seen has proven anything to me. So I wait. But, geesh man, think of what you are implying about other people that you have no idea if you are right about.

 

[Vinman]

I never said I was first or the only person that knows about this I just informed people who did not know and I was trashed for what I said . you are a bitter person and are trying to twist around everthing I say my post speak for themselves. Show me were I said I was the only one that knew of this. You still hold resentment even though you said water is under the bridge.stop personally attacking me. I know what I am talking about and you dont have agree with what I say.

 

[Hurley]

OK, now that the "I told you so's" are out and we can all stroke ourselves about that...

Can we get back to the question at hand?

We've got years of Mike telling a variety of people that the ultra line is "pure" and a recent email claiming they are out of grey rat crossing way back when. Anyone gone back to Mike and asked what's up? Just curious what his slant is on why he's handing out conflicting reports. I thought maybe now that the jig is up, so to speak, he might come out with it. Honestly, I don't think we'll ever really know since the credibility in the story is so trashed. It's going to be up to each individual to try and hash out what they believe and how much they truely care.

 

[Hurley]

One thing we do know is that it seems to be a simple recessive trait codominant to the cornsnake amelanism gene (seems a bit odd for a grey rat to somehow have a recessive gene it never expressed that just happens to be allelic to the corn amel, but maybe I'm just being silly). It's a pretty pronounced genetic effect to have never shown up in grey rats if they supposedly carry the gene. If it was an effect from the grey rat, it seems odd that the effect is simple recessive allelic to amel...but only in corns? What's to say this whole 'oh crap, hybrid, everyone duck and cover, we're gonna die' ultra gene didn't crop up spontaneously in corns and the whole hybrid rumor, whether true or not, isn't a red herring?

I suppose you could just add it to the trial for someone who likes hybrids and has grey rats.

In the meantime, I look forward to hearing about the results from more hypo test crosses.

 

[Kat]

There's also a possibility that no one seems to have mentioned...

What if /some/ of the ultras are hybrids, but not all? If we take Mike Shiver's statement at face value, that he bred grey-rat crosses into his ultra lines, that doesn't mean that every single snake from the ultra line is a grey-rat cross. It's a thought that should be explored as well.

If we /don't/ take the statement at face-value, then we're left with the question of why would someone lie about a new morph being hybrids? The biggest effect this would have would be breeders dumping stock and a substantial drop in value of the morph. While this would allow someone to pick up lots of ultras at low prices, restoring the reputation and value of said animals would be difficult. Even if someone came out with new evidence that they were not infact ever crossed with grey rats, there would still be people who would refuse to get involved with them due to that black mark on their history.

This whole thing has turned into quite a mess... it'll be interesting to see what's left after the dust settles.

-Kat

 

[ecreipeoj]

Since no one has any proof positive yet, anyone can conjecture all they like.

Hi Dianne,
This is not directed at you at all, but I have seen this else where as well.

I am very curious to hear about everybody’s opinions about what would be proof positive in this situation?

We have several different types of Corn Snake Collectors of “pure” Corns.

We have the Locality Hunt Club Okeetee collectors that are emphatic about believing the only Pure Okeetees that can be considered Okeetees are Corn Snakes actually collected on Okeetee Hunt Club property. They cannot be one inch across the property line. To me this is a bit extreme, because when an Okeetee is looking for food or a mate, it may be an Okeetee one minute and not the next as it crosses this boundary set up by the Locality Collectors to define a Pure Okeetee Corn Snake. I believe this to be the most extreme definition of a pure Corn Snake, but we know what the definition is that they have set up. If some people, like the Locality Collectors, only wants a corn snake that falls under that definition of a Pure Corn Snake then they can keep those types of Corn Snakes. They are available. If a Locality Okeetee Collector hears a rumor or gets information at all that a Corn they are considering or has in their possession is not pure, it is no longer in their collection. They are true to their belief.

I am not sure where the next step would be, but we could define a pure Corn Snake as one where its ancestry can be directly linked to wild caught snakes. We could include Okeekee Phase Corns, Miami Phase Corns collected in the wild or any other locality of wild caught Corn. I would consider these types of Corn Snake to be very valuable to add new blood to our existing morphs of Corns. The only problem that I see is that there is no registry and people come and go in this hobby and the linage can only be maintained to a certain point.

The next step is perhaps where most Corn Snake Hobbyists are. They like the Mutant Morphs of Corns Snakes and they want them to be Pure Corns. This is where there are probably as many definitions of pure Corns as there are Morphs of Corns. Everybody would like to think that every Corn that they buy and are told are pure Corns are in fact pure Corns. This would be great if it was possible, but under the current conditions of the Corn World, this cannot be the case. Too many people have come and gone, too many hybrids have been bought and sold that look just like a Pure Corns and too many people have created ¾ hybrids and sold them as pure Corn Snakes intentionally. All of these Hybrids, have been mixed into the general pool of Corns Snakes and it cannot be changed.

I made this statement in a prior response and Rich disagreed with me I see that he just posted something about the same subject and he seems to be agreeing with me at this time. Perhaps it was just his train of thought at the time or perhaps he meant something different entirely.

Joe: “Do you not know that hundreds if not thousands of Ultra decedents and Creamsicle descendants have been sold as Space Garbage through the wholesale market and mixed in with our Corn Snake Mutants?”

Rich:
“Nope. I don't "know" that at all. And neither do you. They certainly have not been mixed into the colonies under my control“.

Rich:
“How many animals were sold over the years that quite likely are carrying this bloodline? Heck, how long ago did Glen Slemmer do his emoryi/corn snake breedings and how many of those animals were produced and sold all throughout the world?”

We seem to be in agreement that many hybrids have been sold into the wholesale market and disturbed in one way or another into the general pool of Corn Snakes. I would go one step further. I have sold a lot of snakes wholesale. I have delivered my corns to wholesalers or just stopped by to say Hi. I have personally seen how many wholesalers keep there stock. They generally keep many of the same type together in one bin. I have seen a wholesaler dump my lot of 100 Amel Corns into his bin of Amel Corns that contained many more hundreds and then dump a lot of Creamsicles into the Amel bin. They do not care if they are het for anything and they do not care if they mix Hybrids with Corns. That is not part of their business. Hybrids have many, many other ways to get into the general pool of Corn Morphs as well. Snake Shows are another big source as Serp pointed out earlier.

The next step is the Pure Morph Corn Collector who also has known Hybrids, but keeps them separate. This can easily be done, just as easily as somebody can sell ¾ hybrids as pure.


Again I would ask somebody, anybody and everybody what would be proof positive in this case?

There have been many statements to the effect that the Ultra line are a result of a hybrid with Grey Rat Snakes long before I posted any emails on this forum. This information came from somewhere and it has consistently been Grey Rat Snakes. Is it just coincidence that these rumors have been Grey Rat Snakes? I would say that they are more than just rumors, because they have been the same kind of statements that you would accept as proof that your Corns Snakes are Pure. These people were told they were a hybrid and passed on the information. Where did it start? I will give you two or three guesses in my opinion. It leaked out in one way or another from one or all of the three involved in the beginning.

Then recently I get an email from Shivers out of the blue about an ad that he saw and wanted me to give the person running the ad a message. Shivers and I began exchanging emails in a very civilized manner and then I get the one that I posted about the Ultra Amber line having Grey Rats in their background. I say this, because we were discussing the Ultra Caramels, which he still calls Ultra “Ambers“. We where not discussing Ultras. I sent the email to a few people and they all thought I should post it here, which I did.

Shivers has said that the Ultra “Ambers” are Pure Corns in the past, this is true. He also told me before someone on this forum chew him a new AH! That he considered them pure Corns because they were 4 to 5 generations removed from the “GreySnows.” It is much more likely for someone to come clean with more accurate information or slip up later, than it is to say that he has an ulterior motive to destroy or whatever the image of this line. To the contrary, he has related to me and on this forum that he is very proud of the Ultra “Ambers”.

The next bit of evidence came from me looking back at some emails that I received from Falcon. At the time, I was trying to find out information about the Ultras for the Hypo Test Breeding project and nothing more. In one of the emails, I found that Falcon stated that he bred the wild caught Corn Snake that carried the Ultra Gene to Normal Corns and to Grey Rat Corn Crosses. The man is the originator of the Ultra Hypo and there is the Gray Rat Hybrid info again. It has been consistently Grey Rat all the way through. Falcon has told many people that the Ultra Hypos are Pure Corn in the past, but what is his ulterior motive in this case? He slipped up or forgot or whatever, but he did say that he bred the original wild caught corn to Hybrids. I was being friendly and not looking him in the face ready to pounce on him if he told me they were hybrids.

Now I can immediately see that we can say that some of the Ultras from the Normals X Ultra carrier are pure corn and the ones from the Ultra carrier X Grey corn cross are hybrids. I am not sure how we could determine this, but Falcon may know. I have a feeling that he would be very reluctant to come forward with any info at this time, because he would most likely be called a liar now or a liar then. Shivers will not talk to me anymore due to his unpleasant encounter with one of our forum members.

I ask again, what would proof positive be in this case? I am actually quite surprised that many of the people that say they want to keep there Corns as pure as possible are the ones trying the hardest to squash this information about the Grey Rat in the background of the Ultras. You would think that if there was the possibility that this was true they would not want them in their collection. I think they may need to re-think their position on what is good enough to be “pure” or what best effort means.

I do not know what the answer in your mind would be for proof positive in this case. It seems to be a great deal more than it takes to be proof positive that the Corns you buy are “pure” Corns, which is very contradictory isn‘t it?

I have really see some tempers flying over this topic. I am actually very neutral about the Goldust Corns. They are very beautiful, and hopefully one day I will own some. I think the best statement that I have seen on the thread to date about this situations came from Don S: “If we know for sure they're not pure corns, we shouldn't call them pure corns, but we're probably in for some shocking revalations if/when we do some DNA testing on some of our traditional corn snake lines.”

I guess many of you are not “sure” or don’t want to believe or what ever in this case. There has been a lot of political spin on this topic if you ask me which will not change the situation of the genetic make up of our Corn Snakes. If you have to have Pure Mutant Corn Morphs, then perhaps you should have DNA tests done on your collection. I think when you get the results back you will have to become a Locality Collector or re-think your position about what is good enough when discussing Mutant Corns.

 

[Serpwidgets]

If we don't do something now the corn snake if its not it already , will be the canary of the snake world in another word a mutt.

I like to know my corns are corns not just a hybrid snake like house cat or a dog. What happnes when someones cross bred corn that the person thinks is pure releases babies in to the wild or one that escapes and contaminat the wild population. We all know what the right answer is search , seek & destroy. Remember this is the native home land of the corn snake once contaminated in the wild, pure corns will be gone for ever so lets protect them. Vinman -Defender Of The faith

Clint, do you really think such a position deserves my respect? I don't.

Vinman, I think this is the part where you're supposed to start doing Seig Heil salutes and screaming "White power! White power!"

Your entire argument is based on your assumption that hybrid = bad, pure = good. There is no such fact. It is your opinion, nothing more. You think your personal tastes dictate an inarguable fact. They don't. Foaming at the mouth doesn't transform your opinion into a fact, it only makes you look like a nazi. Nor does all the name-calling. The only thing that accomplishes is making you look like a first class childish jerk.

If there is any objective argument to be made about which is "better" or "worse" then it is a Darwinian one: the environmental pressures select the fittest specimens, and thus the fittest genetic combinations. In the wild, this is called Natural Selection. If someone releases something, anything, into the wild, then Natural Selection will give us a result from which we can glean an objective measurement:

If it survives and propagates its genes, those genes were BETTER than the current status. Even if you personally don't like it.

If it doesn't, and Natural Selection successfully kills them off, they weren't better. But at the same time, nothing was changed, so what are you freaking out about?

When you breed animals in ANY situation, wild or captive, the result is ALWAYS change. Genetic reproduction introduces "errors" which amount to change. You do not stop it by having an opinion, even a really strong opinion. You are not maintaining "purity" of anything unless you are using a method of 100% perfect cloning. You obviously aren't. What you are doing in reality is exactly what the rest of us are doing. You are selecting for NEW genes and genetic combinations that match your own personal tastes. Even if you don't want to. Even if you never breed any "morphed" corns. And even if you personally can't tell by looking at them, you are still doing it.

Just because your personal tastes happen to match the results of environmental pressures in the wild doesn't make you right and everyone else wrong, nor does it make everyone whose tastes differ from your own a bunch of stupid evil jerks. The wild environment is irrelevant in that equation; we are breeding corns for the purpose of keeping them inside our houses. The selection pressures which control "what genes and genetic combinations are propagated in captivity" are the only empirical yardstick by which we can measure whether or not captive hybrids are "good" or "bad." And since there are plenty of hybrids around, I think you're mistaken in your assertion that hybrids are "bad."

 

[SODERBERGD]

Vinman - - -

Gardenmum it Don S. was the one who said about it being no big deal about if the ultra gene was a cross so you need to reread all the post all over again .

Vinman, where did I say this and in what context?

 

[ecreipeoj]

I know that nothing else can be said about this subject really. Everybody has already made up their minds by now. It doesn’t matter to me one way or another, I am just posting information that I am aware of and stating my opinion about the information.

Tonight I was working out a deal to get a few Ultramels het Lavender and I sent him the emails that I got from Shivers directly. He had been to Shivers house many times and was told a different story than was in the emails. Which story do you think he believes? As I was sending them to him, I thought that I should post the last email with info about the subject that Shiver’s sent to me just for the record.

“No the ultra ambers are about 4 or 5 generation snakes.I just know that the original ultra line came from the greysnow background.Mike and Andy were really good friends back then and i believe they created them together.I hope Rich is not upset with me for mentioning his name,or that he had purchased snakes from Andy at one time or another.Andy used to have snakes from this line that would reproduce every morph in one clutch.I know that i have seen snows,amels,ghost,anery,normal,chocolate and hypos all come from one clutch.I do not know how to get a hold of Andy anymore unless i go over there.Mike falcon used to have Andys cell #.”
Mike

 

[ecreipeoj]

Actually, there was one more. Interpret it any way that you want to.

I think that he is being a little to quick to react on selling those ambers.All i said is that the original ultra gene came from that breeding.Those snakes are coming out 15 years after that gene was created.They have been bred by pure corns and corns carrying ultra hypo.There has been so much out crossing with that gene theres no telling how many corns out there have been created using that gene.I will not say anything furture on the subject.All i did was bred the ultra gene into the carmel gene to reproduce these snakes.I dont really think that was a crime and never once misrepresented them.

Mike

 

[Serpwidgets]

I just know that the original ultra line came from the greysnow background.

I would want to know what that means. I've heard many people talk as if they believe any snake bred to another type of snake is "contaminated" and all of its past, present, and future offspring magically become hybrids. For example, if I were to breed a yellow ratsnake to my bloodred female next year, all of her offspring would be "from yellow ratsnake background," including the 2002 normals, anerys, amels, and snows I have from her. It may not make any sense to you, but it apparently makes sense to quite a few people. :shrugs: Is Shivers one of those people? I don't know. I've never met him and never had a conversation with him. I have no idea how much or how little he knows about genetics, or this morph.

However, in all the things I've heard Shivers say about the Ultra trait, I haven't seen a single shred of evidence that he even knows what the Ultra trait is, how or whether it is or isn't related to standard hypomelanism and/or amelanism, or how it is even inherited, so I'd have a hard time believing that he'd be a credible expert on its origins in the first place. It doesn't take a geneticist to discover a trait, just the ability to inbreed snakes and notice that something "different" popped out.

I still don't see what conclusions are being drawn for what reasons as to why anyone thinks it did or did not come from the gray ratsnake cross in the first place. If this was a "greysnow" it seems to me that it'd be het or homo for snow. If it was homo for snow, then short of a spontaneous mutation there's no way this trait came from that snake and the whole "hybrid" story is a huge steaming pile. If it was het for snow, half of its offspring would be het for anery. Why did NO anerys ever pop up spontaneously in the Ultra lines when they'd been intensively inbred for like 4 or 5 generations?

 

[Vinman]

Don read your post 308 you clame to tell us that you can spot a hybird , some with sevral gen later also the refance to milk in a pool of water its not hard to understand what you are saying. Serpwidgets what is this about white power, naize crap. I 'm mediterranean by blood I do not call myself white . Just because I want to make sure wild populations of corns dont get screwed up? Where does cal. kings , gopher,central american milks .natural range overlap with the range of the corn snake but these snakes have been crossed with corns I do not want this in wild corns. How many of you people who keep corns have ever went hunting for corns in the wild to collect or just look. I do conservation work in my local park restoring natural herps. We just dont let any animal go we have to make sure it does'nt come from to far away so the genitc makeup is close to the native population. Ho many of you donate ther time and money to help nature. Sure it is easy to sit on your buts and cut check how many of you do the field work.I also did volunteer at the bronx zoo I learnd a lot about not tampering with nature. Darwin said survival of the fittest, natural selection. the word is natural not let a hybird go into wild and and change the gene pool . that would mean corns all over their range would not be the same snake anymore the genes would be different from one population to the next I'm not against hybrids I's that people are not doing the right thing with them. We should not keep them were they could breed with something in the wild .P.S. Where did I call anybody a name serpwidgetes you are the one talking trash. Respect? I don't care what you think or who you are, you are the one that is making no sense.

 

[Vinman]

To all out there I spoken to Joe E Pierce a few times many years ago. I asked for a price list. Got a price list every year for a few years in a row. I never a bought a thing but he took the time to talk to me anyway. He was always nice I don't know if he remembers me or not? I can't remember who it was or what it was all about, it was so long ago. Someone had a problem with Joe here in N.Y. and Joe did the right thing by them. This is what counts A person that stands behind their word. I don't care what anybody thinks I trust Joe, he has no reason to lie, he has nothing to gaine.So what if one of the 5 or 6 or more hypo genes gets bumped off, this is not going to make Joe rich. In my opinion Joe is honest guy a man of his word.I belive what Joe is saying about the Ultra gene. Vinny Ritchie