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Ultra Mystery...

Well, I hope everybody believes me, but they sure don’t have to agree with my conclusion about what it all means. I got drug into this by getting the emails that I have posted. I don’t think anybody would say that I should not have posted them. I was involved prior to getting the emails because of the Hypo Test Breeding Project. In a way, I was drug into that at well. I ran an ad for Blue Ice/Transparent Hypos somewhere and here I am.

The Ultra Hypo gene exists and it is an allele with amel. which is very exciting. What ever its background is or was, it will still be a very interesting gene to work with. We really do not have very many incompatible Mutant Genes that have been discovered in Corns and I do believe that the Ultra Hypo is one of them.

Since I am one to try to find answers and can be of the investigating type, I returned the email that I got from Falcon and I ask many more questions about the beginning of the Ultra. Questions like where did the offspring go from the Ultra X Normal and Ultra X Grey/Corn Cross. I also sent him Shivers emails to me and the link to this thread. Why am I the only one doing this is the question. It seems as if Barr is still around and perhaps is living in the same house that he was and is still into snakes. Why doesn’t somebody go knock on his door and talk to him, but you have to be nice! Somebody could go talk to Falcon as well, but you would have to be nice! I am on the other side of the country.

Last night Carlos told me that he talked to Falcon and he said the Ultra Hypos are pure like he has said before. The only problem I see is that people will defend themselves when they perceive that the person asking the question thinks they may have done something wrong. I can certainly see that Shivers goes into a defensive mode when he is approached in that way and most people do. If we ever get to talk to Andy Barr, we may get the story about what he did, because he bred corn crosses and perhaps does not think he did anything wrong which I would agree with. The problem in this case is that people are ready to attack Falcon and Shivers and slam-dunk them because of our preconceived idea that our Mutant Corns are pure and they would be partly responsible for destroying that purity. I totally understand the desire to have a Lavender Corn as pure as it can be, but it will never be a direct descendant to wild caught corns. You must be able to see that.

If you seriously only want Pure Corns then you must change to Locality Corns of one type or another. Some of the Gray Band People have done that and it is good. If you like the Mutant Type Corns and do not want to give them up then you need to except them for what they are Mutants. They are Corn Snakes, but like the tablespoon of milk in the Corn Snake swimming pool example, there is other blood in them. I don’t have to repeat the reason why. The reasons exist and it has been done.

Vinmans reaction of seek and destroy may seem like a complete over reaction, but it may be just how some people are feeling about this. I don’t know how they have came to the conclusion that there Lavender, Butter, Striped or what ever is a Locality Corn and will defend that like our flag, but you are defending something that does not exist. We can put in a best effort, but that is all we can do. Nobody can tell that a corn has other blood in them after several generations of crossing them back into Corns or Mutants.

I understand Serps logic about the Anery A gene in the Greysnows and what that would all mean when mixed with the Ultra. I do think that Corn/Grey Rat Cross where bred to the Ultra line, but we have no details on how or when that was done or what happen to the offspring. All we can do is speculate. It does seem that the wild caught corn that contained this gene was het and not homo. If Falcon bred her to a Greysnow then he would have seen some pretty odd breeding results right from the start which he has not spoken of.

And in conclusion, let’s all be friends and have fun with our Mutants. Hopefully Falcon will respond in some way. Perhaps I can call him to get better details, but he may feel like a drug dealer being called by the Narcotics Squad at this point in time. Can you people see that when a person feels this way, he is not going to be forthcoming with the complete truth? Hopefully, we can get some information from Barr to help really confuse the hell out of everybody.
 
ecreipeoj said:
I totally understand the desire to have a Lavender Corn as pure as it can be, but it will never be a direct descendant to wild caught corns. You must be able to see that.

If you seriously only want Pure Corns then you must change to Locality Corns of one type or another. Some of the Gray Band People have done that and it is good. If you like the Mutant Type Corns and do not want to give them up then you need to except them for what they are Mutants. They are Corn Snakes, but like the tablespoon of milk in the Corn Snake swimming pool example, there is other blood in them. I don’t have to repeat the reason why. The reasons exist and it has been done.

I guess I am curious how you came to that conclusion, Joe. The Lavender gene originated from a wild caught corn that I caught myself near Murdock, Florida. As for the Caramel gene, that came from what was claimed by the owner of the pet shop as a wild caught corn near the Cape Coral, Florida area. Type 'A' Anerythistics literally ABOUND in certain areas in the wild. Blood Reds were developed from wild caught stock from the Hastings and St. Augustine, Florida area. So how in the world can you say that the Lavender corn (and by inference ALL mutations) "will never be a direct descendant to wild caught corns"? And no, although you say I "must be able to see that", I do not.
 
Ok, I'm being nitpicky, but unless a snake being sold as a corn is 100% NOT corn, it has to be decended from wildcaught cornsnakes /somewhere/... What you should be saying is that it's pretty darn hard to tell (and in some cases impossible) if a given cornsnake is decended SOLEY from wildcaught cornsnakes, as opposed to the occasional something-else... :).

Nitpicky filter off now...

-Kat
 
OK, OK, perhaps I did not express myself exactly correct. Rich you are 100% right. The Lavender Corn is a descendent of a wild caught corn and so are the other Mutants genes.

You may have the records to show that some of your Lavender Corns can be linked back to wild caught Corns without any source of unknown Corn Snake Blood in them. If you do, I want some and will breed them to wild caught corns and have Lavender Corns that have their complete lineage back to wild caught corns. I would love to be able to offer “Pure”(My definition) Lavender Corn Snakes to my customers. Pure Ice Lavenders, now that is an idea!, but I would need your help.

I have no idea what the status of your lineage or ancestry is of your corns. For example, I can provide the complete ancestry of my Lava Okeetees and Locality Okeetees back to wild caught, but I cannot with my Lava Corns. I cannot provide all of the ancestors of any of the other corns that I sell, because that information was not given to me and is lost. I can tell you who I bought most of them from, but this does not provide any ancestry information. OK, perhaps some, but very little.

I know I bought Lavender Corns, Lavender Corns het Amel from you and an Opal Corn as well. I also bought Butter Motley Corns, Crimsons, Miami het Crimson and Hypo Lavs from you. I completely understand what you are saying that somewhere in their background, is a wild caught Corn Snake. A wild caught corn snake in the beginning and perhaps more were introduced later on, but these Mutant Morphs that I bought from you have many branches. Amel branches, Motley branches, Caramel branches, Hypo branches and Miami Phase branches. All of the Lavender Corns that I bought from you have Anery A branches as well, except for perhaps the Hypo Lav. I may find other hidden mutant branches contained within them, if I breed them to the right mate. There are also a lot of Corn Snake Breeder off shoot branches as well. If you have all of the ancestors of my Corns based upon their ID numbers that can trace them back to wild caught corns, I would love to have that information. Now unless you inbreed every thing that you have over and over, or only outcross to wild corns or descendants from wild corns, then when you outcross more branches are introduced into the mix as well.

You sold these snakes to me and gave me an ID# which I still have. If this number can be used as some type of registration number and I can get all of the info that you have on all of the snakes I bought from you then that would be great. I do not expect you to provide me with that information. Nobody else does either. We do not have a registry. We have no way to find out all of the ancestry the Lavender Corns that you sent me, or do I?

Likewise, I cannot provide any ancestry on the Corn Snakes that I got from you to the next generation of buyers, because you did not provide it to me. Now when I breed your Lavender Corns to Lavender Corns from that other guy (TR), which is a good outcross, that introduces even more branches into the offspring. Branches that cannot be traced. If there was anyway that we could trace an Amel Corns complete ancestry that is sold at a Snake Show, it would have many branches. 50 years of Corn Snake branches and Breeder branches. Somewhere in the branches would be wild caught corns. How many people buy Snakes at a Snake Show and use them as breeders? I know I have many times. It is almost impossible to resist buying something at a snake show.

So is there a wild caught Corn Snake in the ancestry of each and every one of my Corns Snakes? Rich you are 100% correct. There is and there is in their beginning as well.

I am sure that we can establish Anery A Corns that are direct descendants to wild caught corns. Who has some? I want some. If anybody like yourself Rich can provide Locality type information or even just direct descendants to wild caught corns on a mutant gene, then I want some. This could be a very good thing to begin doing. Why aren’t people offering such things, except Locality Okeetee Collectors? Would everybody be willing to pay more for these Mutants that can be traced back to wild caught Corns and be wild caught locality mutants? Perhaps some people, but not too many. I think most people just like the idea that they are pure, but don’t really need it or want to keep that good of records. It would be cool to have such a snake, but then what? You couldn’t make a Hypo “Anery A“, Bloodred out of them or we would be right back where we are now, Corn Snake Pool Mutants, with a tablespoon or two of who knows what in the mix.

I like all of my Corn Snake Pool Mutants. We all want Pure Corns right? The Okeetee Locality Collectors are not sold out. I still have Lava Okeetees. If I made Ice Ghost from a wild caught Anery A and Lava Okeetee, would they be automatically sky rocketed into the price range of Lavender Bloodreds? No way! as long as there is a Corn Pool Ghost available for $30. It is not really that important to people as they think it is. Perhaps my perspective and many people’s perspectives of the Corn Snake Pool are different, so I agree to disagree.
 
OK, back to the subject at hand

Identify these Corn Snakes. Except for the person who owns them.
 

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They look corn to me Joe, but I am guessing the one is a Hypo and the other a Ultra Caramel?
the word is natural not let a hybrid go into wild
Do we actually have any proof of this, I have been reading this thread since it began and I see this brought up a few times, I personally never found or heard of any 'released hybrids' or the releasing of them. Please educate me if you have data supporting otherwise.
 
I been breeding african cichlids since 1980 I can get fish cheap at the wholesaler but they are hybirds. Lets say yellow lab. 2 "- 2 1/2" for about 3.50 ea. I bought wild yellow Lab 2pair at 115. a pairand they were about 2 1/4 to 2 3/4 . I buy all my african cichlids wild caught and pay a lot more pure wild fish . I would pay more for for the true stuff .
 
I find that a bit extreme, there are some lines I would trust in buying, of cichlids that is. I to keep them, but for only 4 years so I am still a novice with them, but I honestly think I would be able to trust some of them breeders out there. I think of people who only buy wild caughts animals as having some self/trust issues and are a bit extreme, but that MY opinion.
 
the amber has a narow long head is that the photo or is that the way the head looks in person . If that is the shape of the head then I say it's head looks like a rat snake .
 
As far as fish go I seen breeders use a wild male to pond raised stock aka crossbreed if you want to talk fish Email me your phone # and I will call you back. I started with africans in 1979 I was born in 63 . I have fish with data local.populations . Minos reef ,mapanga ect.
[email protected]

phone 7181922593
 
I actually found this photo by doing some searches on this forum, Rich's other forum and that $@# forum. I know what type of Corn Snake these were labeled as. I sent the owner an email and I am sure that they will provide more information about them very soon, because of who they are. I was surprised that I was able to find related topics to this one as many as three years ago. Some that I could directly relate to this topic. I am not going to say what they actually are for a while. It is just a “Please identify these Corns” thread within a thread.

I don’t know about you guys, but I really don’t know that much about Gray Rat Snakes so I did a little searching this morning and looked at a lot of photos to see what we are talking about, such as the way they look, pattern and body type.

I also have noticed that I have a serious lack of photos of Ultra Corns in my computer and they are very difficult to find. I have this one that Stephen Roylance owns, but the only others I have are of Ultra/Ultramel Motleys. It seems odd to me that there seems to be more Motleys from this line than Normal Pattern. It should be the complete reverse

Do any of you have some Ultra Hypo photos that you can post? I know Rich has a couple or three Ultras that would be nice to see photos of. I believe he said that they liked to eat the camera, so he had not taken any, but that was quite a while ago. Anybody else have any. I will put a couple of Kat’s up here too.

Kat’s came from Shivers and is from the Goldust line. He is most likely an Ultramel Motley het for Caramel. Roylance’s came from Falcon I believe, but I am not sure. I believe he told me that it is het or Homo for Standard Hypo as well, but we discussed it by telephone about a year ago and my memory is not perfect. That is why I like emails!
 

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Crazycorn Rich let go tons of baby corns that don't feed for him at his place. All differnt morprs .He freely admits it . Suppose some them was from a hybird? Do you think Rich is the only one who does? I know 2 other breeders that do the same.What about all the wholesalers in Fa. , you dont think anything escapes ?
 
An after thought.

Creamsicles and Amel King Corns and other corn hybrids are descendants from wild caught corns too, but they are not pure corns. They do show the mutant genes discovered in wild caught corns however.
 
Im I the only one that sees a abnormal head shape or I'm I seeing things? Reply 345 & 351 see pics. please leet me know vinman P.S. every C.B. animal are desendants from wild animals .
 
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Unfortunately, I have only had a few Black Rats and Trans Pecos Rats many years ago so I don’t have much experience in that area at all. I do remember that the Black Rats that I had were big, and did not like me!

When I was looking around at photos this morning of Rat Snakes, my impression was that they kind of had a head and/or body type that reminded me of a Gopher Snake in some way. I guess their head and neck appear to be longer than a Corns.

I found this photo and I can certainly see how the Gray Rat/Corn Frosted hybrids could have came from them. From what I gathered, there are Pure Frosted Corns lines as well. I really don’t know much about the Frosteds, except a little that I found while searching and some info that was posted on this thread.
 

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ecreipeoj said:
Identify these Corn Snakes. Except for the person who owns them.
Come on only one guess. How about if I tell you that one is Homo Caramel and they are both a type of hypo and give you two choices.

Well, I just talked to the owner and I now have some adult photos. They are not sure if the yellow one is Caramel. I assumed it was by the way it looked in the photo. It is an extremely yellow adult. They are both a type of hypo however.

A: Corn

B: Hybrid
 
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Crazycorn Rich let go tons of baby corns that don't feed for him at his place. All different Morphs .He freely admits it . Suppose some them was from a hybrid? Do you think Rich is the only one who does? I know 2 other breeders that do the same.What about all the wholesalers in Fa. , you don't think anything escapes ?
I have also heard of him letting them go among a few others, but I have not heard of any hybrids being let go OR found, I have seen and heard of local integration but no hybrids, until I have proof of this I will not be able to accept the talk of 'wild' hybrids, or hybrids getting loose and messing up the gene pool ATM. Also most hybrids would not survive being in the wild, most are very colorful such as albinos and there are very few that would make much less breed with the present population, IMO once again. Please educate me otherwise if this is not true. Also whatever happened to the non 'cross' snakes? were they being sold along with the crosses, who has these non-cross corns right now? Were they kept 'pure' or were they to later on crossed with Grey Rats? Were the crosses ever sold? Do we know that for a fact? Sorry if I missed some of these questions being answered at an earlier post but I have been very busy with finally going back to school after the hurricanes here in FL.
 
Crazy corn you just don't understand . When people let go corns in the wild they dont know what the back round history of the snake is . Some of these snakes ansistery goes back before you were born and probley before I was born as well, I'm 41. Some of these snakes have tanted blood and the person does not know it, this is the problem. Hurricanes, there is a guy in Fa. that had 50 corns that got loose . How many creamsicle or other hybrids that get loose from Fa. wholesalers? You have to be foolish to belive that nothing escapes from them . A friend found some type of hybrid in the wild here in up state N,Y. It is some type of corn cross. Every body who seen the snake says that snake looks like a corn crossed to somthing . This snake was found inbetween 2 guys that have all lot of hybrids . they live about 2 - 3 miles away from each other.
 
(I have seen and heard of local integration but no hybrids,) what are you talking about what type of local integration have you seen ? So CrazyCorn I would like to know the answer,
 
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