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WOW, Petco needs some help!

I have over 50 tanks with UT heaters and the only thermostats I have are on my racks. As I understand it other snake breeds: will actually burn themselves but corns move to their own comfort zone in the tank. I check temps often and have never seen a problem. Maybe I have just been lucky.:shrugs:

I think you have just been lucky. I used to think you didn't need to regulate UTH heat pads once too before I found this forum or knew any better. One of my snakes suffered the consequences. So I have seen first hand the blisters on a corn snakes belly that got burned from an unregulated heat pad... It wasn't pretty. Luckily it wasn't too bad and I was able to treat it with neosporin. So why didn't my snake move when it got too hot? I really don't know, maybe it is kind of like frogs, if you put a frog in hot water it jumps out, but if you put it in cold water and then heat the water it will sit there until you boil it to death. You don't have to get a fancy thermostat, a dimmer from walmart that is made to plug a lamp into will do the trick. (Or better yet a dimmer from your local store if walmart has not put it out of business..)
 
I quote ( with Don's permission) from his book
"The snake will know when it needs heat and when it should be away from the heat, but it's very important to offer both zones. Therefore, be sure heating devices are associated with only one end of the cage. "
In talking with Don he tells me that "the thickness of the aspen bedding above the UT heater is the insulation and heat regulation from the UT Heater" and calls the thermostat "optional" and " the cost of the thermostat shouldn't make the difference between a person being able to afford their first snake." Thermostats can go out also unless you spent quite a bit of money for a good one. He goes on to say that "rheostats don't adjust if there are changes in room temperatures".

I see what everyone is saying and thats why this forum is so good cause you can express your option and read everyone's option and make up your own mind.
 
Eh. No matter how much aspen I put in there my snakes always seem to find their way to the bottom. I don't want to argue, they are your snakes. I just know what I have experienced first hand for myself and will trust in this more than any book no matter who wrote it.
And yes, with the dimmers I described you have to check temps often and make adjustments... but it is better than not using anything at all to regulate the heat pads. I felt horrible and so guilty when my snake was burned and it is hard to publicly admit that I made a mistake like this, I only did so hoping it will help others not to make the same mistake.
 
I've been flip-flopping on thermostats myself... I've just got some recently, and they seem like a good safe-guard... BUT I did not have problems before I used them, although I also put a pretty thick amount of bedding in.

Now the "Under tank heaters" I buy seem to say I ought to be putting the heater on the *side* of the tank; this seems even less likely to burn a snake, even unregulated... I only just set one up that way; still seeing if it can get the temps right
 
I've been flip-flopping on thermostats myself... I've just got some recently, and they seem like a good safe-guard... BUT I did not have problems before I used them, although I also put a pretty thick amount of bedding in.

Now the "Under tank heaters" I buy seem to say I ought to be putting the heater on the *side* of the tank; this seems even less likely to burn a snake, even unregulated... I only just set one up that way; still seeing if it can get the temps right


Silvergrin,

The reason for the UT is for belly heat... would be hard for the corn to get belly heat for digestion if the UT was on the side of the tank :)

I'm curious if Zorro has ever touched the glass under his UT, perhaps that might change his mind about how safe it is to go without a thermostat.
 
I quote ( with Don's permission) from his book
"The snake will know when it needs heat and when it should be away from the heat, but it's very important to offer both zones. Therefore, be sure heating devices are associated with only one end of the cage. "
In talking with Don he tells me that "the thickness of the aspen bedding above the UT heater is the insulation and heat regulation from the UT Heater" and calls the thermostat "optional" and " the cost of the thermostat shouldn't make the difference between a person being able to afford their first snake." Thermostats can go out also unless you spent quite a bit of money for a good one. He goes on to say that "rheostats don't adjust if there are changes in room temperatures".

I see what everyone is saying and thats why this forum is so good cause you can express your option and read everyone's option and make up your own mind.

These are animals that are essentially plucked into a tank, viv, whatever you want to call it. A corn living in the wild is alot different from a corn living in a 36 inch long glass tank. As an owner I believe you have to do everything possible to make that snake as comfortable as you can. And that includes mimicking optimum temps because your keeping the snake in an enclosure he cant get out of.

IMO Rheostats are a joke.

All of my vivs are plugged into a thermostat. Why?

Well one day the cat knocked the thermostat off the table and when it fell, the plug came out. That heatmat within a half hour went to 120 degrees. And Ms snakey was in her water.

Thats not a very nice place for her to spend her days, and I use plenty of aspen. Unless you have a huge enclosure, when that heatmat skyrockers, the average temp is the entire tank will go up.


So I use a thermostat. Ive had it over a year and the thing cost me 20 bucks. And my Amel doesnt spend her time in her water bowl anymore, nor would she have been in it that day had the plug not come out.

I think when keeping snakes in captivity you have a responsibility to stimulate an environment that their mos comfortable in, how can you do that with thick aspen when corns are burrowers?


They like to burrow. It makes them feel safe, especially when their hatchlings, so its not fair that the glass underneath there is 100 degrees.


And my first corn I bought from Don, I had a convo with him about heat, and he told me to monitor with the probe, the hottest point that the snake can come into contact with. Isnt that the glass? I took it as being the glass. Put aspen there, they will burrow, put paper towel there, they will go underneath it. Theres no way around that.
 
Silvergrin,

The reason for the UT is for belly heat... would be hard for the corn to get belly heat for digestion if the UT was on the side of the tank :)

I'm curious if Zorro has ever touched the glass under his UT, perhaps that might change his mind about how safe it is to go without a thermostat.
My UT heaters are under the glass so there is no glass under my UT but I have shot the temp on the glass above the UT (inside the tank) and checking a few the temp ranged from 86 -92 and the temp on top of the aspen bedding ranges from 78-82. I love my snakes and have alot invested in them and if I thought it was dangerous I know I wouldn't use a UT without a thermostat. But from what you guys are saying people have had problems. I would like to hear more?

Thanks
 
I can't tell you any more than what I already have, I stupidly didn't use anything to regulate a UTH and my snake was burned and had blisters on the belly from the UTH getting too hot. I guess if ten more people come on here and admit this had happened to them too it might hold more water.
 
My UT heaters are under the glass so there is no glass under my UT but I have shot the temp on the glass above the UT (inside the tank) and checking a few the temp ranged from 86 -92 and the temp on top of the aspen bedding ranges from 78-82. I love my snakes and have alot invested in them and if I thought it was dangerous I know I wouldn't use a UT without a thermostat. But from what you guys are saying people have had problems. I would like to hear more?

Thanks

How is it you dont use a thermostat but your hottest temp is 92? If my probe so much as moves my temps will get hotter then that.
 
He replies, "Oh, of course we do!" and walks me over to the thermoMETERS... being somewhat polite I said, "Oh, no. Not thermometers, I need a thermoSTAT to control the heat of this heating pad."

OMG MAN!!! I went to pet supermaket and happened EXACTLY the same! I went and told ther girl: excuse me I'm looking for a rheostat. so she goes and shows me the thermometers and then I tell her: hmmm I don't need a thermometer... see you have a heat pad ok? -ok so I need something to regulate the temperature.... so she stays like: :eek1: and then she shoes me other thermometers! she really had not a single idea of what I was looking for so I told her: don't worry I'll find it thank you hahaha they really have to hire people who know something.... here in mexico they feed them crickets too!
 
Silvergrin,

The reason for the UT is for belly heat... would be hard for the corn to get belly heat for digestion if the UT was on the side of the tank :)

I'm curious if Zorro has ever touched the glass under his UT, perhaps that might change his mind about how safe it is to go without a thermostat.

My understanding thus far is that snakes do not need *bellyheat* specifically, like, *on their tummy*, so much as access temps that will get their core to the proper temperature for digestion; be it from the bottom, top (basking), or ambient air...? Admittedly, the first thought is a heater on the side of a tank will only provide a slim gradient of the proper temperature, but I thought I'd try it for a little bit since the product recommended it be used that way....
 
I believe that thermostats are practically compulsory for snakes. One of the most important bits of equipment you can buy.

I favour thermostatic control for the simple reason that, as keepers of these beautiful animals, we are responsible for taking away risks to their health as far as possible. Keeping the heat controlled is neither expensive or inconvenient and is a small price to pay for your animal's assured safety, IMO. Risk of burns, however small that risk may be, is still a risk and one that can be easily removed.

That's just my opinion, but I have in the past used a UTH without a thermostat. When I found out what the temperature was in my tank I felt I was lucky I hadn't killed my snake. I now swear by the things. ;)
 
I know its already been said, but im also of the opinion that uth's should always be regulated. My local petshop had originally told me its fine to use it without, when I measured the temp, it was kicking out 112f, far to hot in a 'starter' tank for a corn.
 
I dont usually rip on pet stores... but the last time I was at PetCo to buy lights, I was looking at all the animals.. you know how you just kinda have to?? LOL well, a young sales person came up to me and asked if I needed help. I told him not really but I did have a concern about one of the tiny corn snakes they had on display. It was very tiny, looked sunk in like it was dehydrated and had bits of shed stuck all over it... it just looked over all pathetic and aweful. When I asked about it he PROUDLY told me that they had been fed the day before but this one was so small that after he had seen it seen that it was too stretched and had had to FORCE it to regurge because it had eaten a pinkie that was bigger than the space between his eyes.... At this point my jaw dropped open and I just looked at him.... my mom told me to walk away because she knew I wanted to say something and well... needless to say.... I didnt walk away! I told him since the store wasnt that busy that I needed him to listen to me and learn. After about an hour (LOL ya... an Hour!) I think he got the hint that I wasnt happy.... at this point the store was Super busy but... was kinda funny because any of the other customers who had any interest in the snakes were asking me and my mother questions and not the employees. That was a week ago and I still cant really beleive what had happened but I was more than ok to answer questions and tell them proper feeding and care.... the basics. Atleast they werent being fed crickets this time.... Thats another story.
 
I believe that thermostats are practically compulsory for snakes. One of the most important bits of equipment you can buy.

That's just my opinion, but I have in the past used a UTH without a thermostat. When I found out what the temperature was in my tank I felt I was lucky I hadn't killed my snake. I now swear by the things. ;)

I didn't know about them until I found this place and when I checked on it, mine were also up there into the 100s. I immediately ordered a couple of Herpstats and put the tanks up on several thick paperback books to get the cage up away from the UT. I still stick my hand under there to see how hot the glass is. That's how I found out that my dual HS isn't working correctly. Which reminds me I need to go see what the warranty is on that thing, since it wasn't cheap.
 
No thermostats necessary . .

I haven't read each and every post on this thread, but am compelled to offer some observations, in response to the general tone of thread participants.

Ball pythons love to cook themselves (probably other species too), but not corns. I personally have never had a corn burrow down to the hot plate below and get burned. Of course, I can't say it hasn't happened to someone, but I have some statistics to offer.

I sell over 2,500 neonate corns annually and have done so for over eight years. Before that, I probably sold at least 1,000 per year for over five years, and so on. Let's just say, I'm certain I've sold well over 35,000 corns. 80+% of my customers are buying their first snake, so you can imagine how much time I spend with them, going over environmental requirements and answering newby Qs. I'm positive that over 98% of my customers are using UT (Under Tank) heat and I'm equally certain that 98% of those are NOT using thermostats. These stats come from speaking to customers that call to discuss heating, watering, cage furnishings, shedding, feeding, etc.. Out of those 35,000+ snakes sold, not one single person ever called to ask me how to treat a belly burn (or any other belly sore). In all the years I've been keeping snakes, not one corn of any size ever burned itself, while in my care.

Observations:
The stats speak for themselves, but only because of the efficiency of what I call the passive rheostat, (aspen substrate). If you put the UT heater under one end of the cage and have a one to three inch depth of aspen bedding (or similar bedding product), corn snakes will NOT burn themselves. One key to the success of this safety is remembering that corns like to hide. If you adjust the depth of the substrate to result in a temperature of 79-85F INSIDE the warm-side hide, your corn will spend 80+% of it's life in that hide. As long as there is another hide (also dark and seclusive) on the cool end of the cage, the two hides are where they'll spend most of the daytime hours of their lives. Only if the warm-side hide falls below 79 will they seek warmer digs, BUT I have never seen nor heard of one burning itself on the hot glass below. If they do burrow, they seldom go to the glass and often if they do go that deep, they can be found inches from the warmest part of the glass. No burns result.
Note: If using a thin floor covering in the cage such as newsprint or paper towels, thermostats and/or rheostats are recommended.

Now, having given you personal testimony about the many thousands of snakes I've had in my care, and that of many thousands of other customers and associates that do NOT use thermostats, it should be obvious that corns CAN thrive in captivity without temperature control devices. I didn't mention the people that have called me over the years, crying about failed thermostats. Each time you employ the services of an electronic device of any kind, it's not a matter of if there'll be a problem, but when the device will fail. Granted, such a failure will be brief, but it WILL happen. I will not argue that using a thermostat or rheostat may be more energy efficient and that it will help maintain a more constant thermal gradient in the cage that is more conducive to digestion, but I can assure you that in the absence of a temperature control device, not only will the warm-side be safe and efficient for digestion (as long as the room temperature does not exceed 85F), but totally safe for your snake. Of course, if your room temperature exceeds 85F, even a thermostat will not help you avoid potential hyperthermia.
Note: If you are one of those that thinks thermostats are crucial to the welfare of your snake, are you using two of them redundently? If you really think a thermostat is crucial, surely you understand the need for a back-up that will kick in if the primary device fails. Otherwise, if the thermostat fails in the OPEN position, you'd better have a deep substrate depth, sufficient to protect your snake from the falsely perceived threat of it getting belly burned.

Thermostats may have some benefits, but they are definitely not a prerequisite to corn snake husbandry. I have tens of thousands of customers that will attest to this fact. There are hundreds of different ways to safely and efficiently maintain corn snakes, but it doesn't mean that one of those ways is the only way. If thousands of my customers are safely keeping cornsnakes healthy and free of thermal-related afflictions, it is safe to say thermostats are NOT essential. In fact, in some cases, electronic failure could result in problems, but even a run-away thermostat should not stick in the OPEN position enough to affect your snake, unless you have no cool hide in which the snake can retreat. I'm not verbally spanking anyone for their advice in this thread. I don't do that, since I know the way they're keeping their corns is so successful, they want to share it with others. I just want to show that other ways work well also.

Regarding the temperature of the glass above the UT heater; you can monitor glass temperatures over 130F in some cases. In the absence of using a theromostat or rheostat, and with sufficient substrate depth, your snake can enjoy low 80sF inside the warm-side hide.

Note: If the hide is not sufficient dark inside, they may burrow into the substrate to block the light from their eyes, but that is nothing to worry about. They will NOT get close enough to the heat source to get burned.

Regarding OT lights vs UT heaters, it's a no-brainer to me. In the wild, air temperatures can play a role in corn snakes achieving comfort and nominal digestion, but in captivity, there is little benefit to using OT heat. Not only does 80+% of the heat from a round incandescent light bulb never reach the snake, but the air in the cage is usually unacceptably dry as a result of that type of heat. Since heated air rises, UT heating is not only more efficient and beneficial to energy conservation, but a more natural way for snakes to achieve nominal metabolism. The ground on which snakes spend most of their lives in the wild, holds temperatures. Even when the night air cools the area above the ground, the ground surface retains much of the heat of the day for several hours after dark. Some nights would be too cool for snakes to hunt, if not for the core body temperature they're able to maintain from contact with the ground. Hence, heating your snake from below is the most natural way to heat snakes in captivity. Did I mention, there are no flimsy filaments to fail in UT heaters? Light bulbs are notorious for needing replacement from all the movement they endure and 60 watts of electricity is much more than the 8-12w a UT heater requires. What if you went on vacation during the winter and the bulb filament failed? Do you use two lights redundently, in case of primary failure. It is extremely rare for UT heaters to fail.

In conclusion, I'd like everyone to remember that many people reading these forums are impressionable and some readers actually react to everything they see here. If you think your way of keeping corns is elemental to your success, that's something you should tell folks about, but it's wise to promote open-mindedness about alternatives. I've always maintained that if you can't afford the basic requirements to keep snakes healthy, do not get one. But having said that, the added expense of thermostats and rheostats is not necessarily crucial, and can sometimes mean the difference between affording and not affording a corn snake. If I thought temperature control devices were a prerequisite to safe corn snake keeping, I'd only sell snakes to people that use them. This is not the case.

Merry Christmas (or any other holiday you practice this time of year) from

Don Soderberg
South Mountain Reptiles
www.cornsnake.NET
 
I have immense respect for you Don, and I am not trying to argue to make myself look good or anything, but I HAVE had a snake burn itself on a UTH as I stated before. This is not a lie, it actually happened to me. The corn snake had two large blisters on its belly from burning itself on a UTH, I treated it with neosporin and it healed OK and was no longer noticeable after a couple of sheds. I really wish I had pictures to prove it now, which is why I posted the link to the other snake with the scar from a burn. So maybe I just had a really dumb corn snake but it really truly did happen to me. It was extremely difficult to come onto a public forum and say so. I will continue to regulate my UTH devices so it does not happen again.
 
Burns . .

I have immense respect for you Don, and I am not trying to argue to make myself look good or anything, but I HAVE had a snake burn itself on a UTH as I stated before. This is not a lie, it actually happened to me. The corn snake had two large blisters on its belly from burning itself on a UTH, I treated it with neosporin and it healed OK and was no longer noticeable after a couple of sheds. I really wish I had pictures to prove it now, which is why I posted the link to the other snake with the scar from a burn. So maybe I just had a really dumb corn snake but it really truly did happen to me. It was extremely difficult to come onto a public forum and say so. I will continue to regulate my UTH devices so it does not happen again.

No proof necessary. I believe you, but until you saw my post, you had no way of knowing how rare your situation was. 35,000 snakes sold by me and not one reported a burn. Nor have I personally ever heard of one. Naturally, there are exceptions to everything, but if we tried to prevent rare eventualities such as a corn that burns itself, we'd all have solid steel roofs in case blue ice or meteorites hit our homes. lol

Nothing wrong with you regulating the heat in your cage, but hopefully you have two thermostats daisy-chained, in case one fails. In other words, don't ignore the statistics that electronic devices fail. Using a thermostat does not preclude a recurrence of what happened to you before.

Don
 
lol, just my luck I had to get the one in a million fluke snake that didn't have the sense to move when the pad got too hot. I'm going to have to look into the extra thermostat thing... I am talking to my roofers about the meteorite cover ASAP lol ;)
Thanks for sharing your experience, I am glad you didn't take offense I just want what is best for my snakes :)
 
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