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WOW, Petco needs some help!

Humor me . . .

Actually, because I have a HerpStat on the warm side, I know the temps there are within the guidelines for warm side and she does go in her moss box which is also on the warm end prior/during a shed. I also have a thermometer on the cool side and the temps there are in the prescribed range. Gailleann is simply one of those who prefer to be arboeal (sp.). She got the hanging hide (which is a paper towel core) when she got too big for her little bonsai type tree to handle. She is often seen hanging her head out, esp. when SHE thinks its feeding time :)

Please, put a thermometer inside the warm-side hide of the cage. Let me know what it says INSIDE that hide.
 
I haven't read each and every post on this thread, but am compelled to offer some observations, in response to the general tone of thread participants.

Ball pythons love to cook themselves (probably other species too), but not corns. I personally have never had a corn burrow down to the hot plate below and get burned. Of course, I can't say it hasn't happened to someone, but I have some statistics to offer.

I sell over 2,500 neonate corns annually and have done so for over eight years. Before that, I probably sold at least 1,000 per year for over five years, and so on. Let's just say, I'm certain I've sold well over 35,000 corns. 80+% of my customers are buying their first snake, so you can imagine how much time I spend with them, going over environmental requirements and answering newby Qs. I'm positive that over 98% of my customers are using UT (Under Tank) heat and I'm equally certain that 98% of those are NOT using thermostats. These stats come from speaking to customers that call to discuss heating, watering, cage furnishings, shedding, feeding, etc.. Out of those 35,000+ snakes sold, not one single person ever called to ask me how to treat a belly burn (or any other belly sore). In all the years I've been keeping snakes, not one corn of any size ever burned itself, while in my care.

Observations:
The stats speak for themselves, but only because of the efficiency of what I call the passive rheostat, (aspen substrate). If you put the UT heater under one end of the cage and have a one to three inch depth of aspen bedding (or similar bedding product), corn snakes will NOT burn themselves. One key to the success of this safety is remembering that corns like to hide. If you adjust the depth of the substrate to result in a temperature of 79-85F INSIDE the warm-side hide, your corn will spend 80+% of it's life in that hide. As long as there is another hide (also dark and seclusive) on the cool end of the cage, the two hides are where they'll spend most of the daytime hours of their lives. Only if the warm-side hide falls below 79 will they seek warmer digs, BUT I have never seen nor heard of one burning itself on the hot glass below. If they do burrow, they seldom go to the glass and often if they do go that deep, they can be found inches from the warmest part of the glass. No burns result.
Note: If using a thin floor covering in the cage such as newsprint or paper towels, thermostats and/or rheostats are recommended.

Now, having given you personal testimony about the many thousands of snakes I've had in my care, and that of many thousands of other customers and associates that do NOT use thermostats, it should be obvious that corns CAN thrive in captivity without temperature control devices. I didn't mention the people that have called me over the years, crying about failed thermostats. Each time you employ the services of an electronic device of any kind, it's not a matter of if there'll be a problem, but when the device will fail. Granted, such a failure will be brief, but it WILL happen. I will not argue that using a thermostat or rheostat may be more energy efficient and that it will help maintain a more constant thermal gradient in the cage that is more conducive to digestion, but I can assure you that in the absence of a temperature control device, not only will the warm-side be safe and efficient for digestion (as long as the room temperature does not exceed 85F), but totally safe for your snake. Of course, if your room temperature exceeds 85F, even a thermostat will not help you avoid potential hyperthermia.
Note: If you are one of those that thinks thermostats are crucial to the welfare of your snake, are you using two of them redundently? If you really think a thermostat is crucial, surely you understand the need for a back-up that will kick in if the primary device fails. Otherwise, if the thermostat fails in the OPEN position, you'd better have a deep substrate depth, sufficient to protect your snake from the falsely perceived threat of it getting belly burned.

Thermostats may have some benefits, but they are definitely not a prerequisite to corn snake husbandry. I have tens of thousands of customers that will attest to this fact. There are hundreds of different ways to safely and efficiently maintain corn snakes, but it doesn't mean that one of those ways is the only way. If thousands of my customers are safely keeping cornsnakes healthy and free of thermal-related afflictions, it is safe to say thermostats are NOT essential. In fact, in some cases, electronic failure could result in problems, but even a run-away thermostat should not stick in the OPEN position enough to affect your snake, unless you have no cool hide in which the snake can retreat. I'm not verbally spanking anyone for their advice in this thread. I don't do that, since I know the way they're keeping their corns is so successful, they want to share it with others. I just want to show that other ways work well also.

Regarding the temperature of the glass above the UT heater; you can monitor glass temperatures over 130F in some cases. In the absence of using a theromostat or rheostat, and with sufficient substrate depth, your snake can enjoy low 80sF inside the warm-side hide.

Note: If the hide is not sufficient dark inside, they may burrow into the substrate to block the light from their eyes, but that is nothing to worry about. They will NOT get close enough to the heat source to get burned.

Regarding OT lights vs UT heaters, it's a no-brainer to me. In the wild, air temperatures can play a role in corn snakes achieving comfort and nominal digestion, but in captivity, there is little benefit to using OT heat. Not only does 80+% of the heat from a round incandescent light bulb never reach the snake, but the air in the cage is usually unacceptably dry as a result of that type of heat. Since heated air rises, UT heating is not only more efficient and beneficial to energy conservation, but a more natural way for snakes to achieve nominal metabolism. The ground on which snakes spend most of their lives in the wild, holds temperatures. Even when the night air cools the area above the ground, the ground surface retains much of the heat of the day for several hours after dark. Some nights would be too cool for snakes to hunt, if not for the core body temperature they're able to maintain from contact with the ground. Hence, heating your snake from below is the most natural way to heat snakes in captivity. Did I mention, there are no flimsy filaments to fail in UT heaters? Light bulbs are notorious for needing replacement from all the movement they endure and 60 watts of electricity is much more than the 8-12w a UT heater requires. What if you went on vacation during the winter and the bulb filament failed? Do you use two lights redundently, in case of primary failure. It is extremely rare for UT heaters to fail.

In conclusion, I'd like everyone to remember that many people reading these forums are impressionable and some readers actually react to everything they see here. If you think your way of keeping corns is elemental to your success, that's something you should tell folks about, but it's wise to promote open-mindedness about alternatives. I've always maintained that if you can't afford the basic requirements to keep snakes healthy, do not get one. But having said that, the added expense of thermostats and rheostats is not necessarily crucial, and can sometimes mean the difference between affording and not affording a corn snake. If I thought temperature control devices were a prerequisite to safe corn snake keeping, I'd only sell snakes to people that use them. This is not the case.

Merry Christmas (or any other holiday you practice this time of year) from

Don Soderberg
South Mountain Reptiles
www.cornsnake.NET

Wish i wouldve read this before. Aspen is a hell of a lot cheaper then the almost 500$ Ive spent on thermostats.
 
lol, just my luck I had to get the one in a million fluke snake that didn't have the sense to move when the pad got too hot. I'm going to have to look into the extra thermostat thing... I am talking to my roofers about the meteorite cover ASAP lol ;)
Thanks for sharing your experience, I am glad you didn't take offense I just want what is best for my snakes :)

Im confused,


If a thermostat "is NOT essential" and you, like myself, already have one, wouldnt it be easier to use the 3inches of aspen in case it fails rather then buying another one?

Did I get that right?:shrugs:
 
I'm confused as well, still trying to decide exactly where I stand on the whole thing, as the no thermostat needed idea is a new concept for me. But my current system has worked as long as I've been using it, so if it ain't broke... the couple of changes I am considering is to either get that fail-safe extra thermostat and daisy-chain them as Don suggested, or just begin heating the entire room instead of the racks and let the temps drop a little at night. It might actually save me a bit on energy bills to do it that way.
 
Excellent, excellent, post, Don!

So many people call me after their local shop has sold them one of those cheap, digital, "glow in the dark" aquarium thermometers that stick on to the outside of the glass. Those shops must think our corns float in mid-aquarium, like fish do!

As for heating the whole room, that is what I have been doing for several years in one of my rooms, and this year I am finally going back to heat tapes paired with a cooler room. Although heating the whole room does work, I feel that whenever a snake gets stressed for one reason or another, the ability to thermoregulate as desired could make the difference between thriving and dealing with stress, or coming down with some sort of problem (regurges, loss of appetite, etc) that might have never become a problem had the snake been better able to deal with stress.

Also, I have heard of far more people losing large numbers of animals due to room heater malfunctions than due to heat strip malfunctions.

I personally prefer a long, skinny hide that traverses both the hot and cool ends, allowing for anything in between as well. The snake can choose which end (or how far in the middle) it wants to be. We actually made some out of PVC pipe that I like. Maybe I will market them someday.
 
I'm confused as well, still trying to decide exactly where I stand on the whole thing, as the no thermostat needed idea is a new concept for me. But my current system has worked as long as I've been using it, so if it ain't broke... the couple of changes I am considering is to either get that fail-safe extra thermostat and daisy-chain them as Don suggested, or just begin heating the entire room instead of the racks and let the temps drop a little at night. It might actually save me a bit on energy bills to do it that way.

The room I house all my snakes in is small compared to the large rooms in the rest of the house. While the boiler struggles to keep the house at 75, that room is 80 easy. I have a thermometer in there because initially I feared it was too warm for them.

Now in the summer, when the central air is on, its a different story.

If Kathy and Don both agree a thermostat arent essential, Im sure not going to go out and buy more, thats just me. I made a little mark with a sharpie on each tank from the bottom up 3 inches so now I know how high to fill it with aspen.

The one time I did have something happen with my thermostat, like I said, I found my amel in her water, but i was NOT using that much aspen so, my bad.
 
Kathy, if you don't mind me asking, what temperature do you heat the room to? I think I also heard this idea from Connie Hurley. If I remember right she had said keeping hatchlings at 82 degrees was one solution for people that keep their babies in deli cups. Since I only use shoebox enclosures (I like the long, narrow shape = heat gradient too) heating the racks seemed easier to me. But it would be pretty easy to just keep younguns in the room I was referring to.
I kind of have a hodgepodge of different set ups, I have racks with thermostats and not that many 20 gallon longs left but those have UTH's with the lamp dimmers (which is technically a rheostat).
 
I personally prefer a long, skinny hide that traverses both the hot and cool ends, allowing for anything in between as well. The snake can choose which end (or how far in the middle) it wants to be. We actually made some out of PVC pipe that I like. Maybe I will market them someday.

That sounds like a tortoise thermoregulating in a burrow! Same principle.
 
I generally get the baby room up to the mid 80s during the day, and upper 70s at night. But I used to use heat tapes many years ago, and by the next hatch, will be using them again.
 
Thanks Kathy! Also I just wanted to say I think the pvc hides are a great idea. I will be putting more substrate in the tanks I have with UTH's as well. I really only have KSB's in glass vivs right now and everything else is in racks, though :)
 
Just want to mention, Kathy, I stole the idea in one of your books of using halfed paper towel roles as hides for babies, and I have to say, its working great. Before they started tipping over their water boles every 5 days (right before feeding time), they loved those hides, but now I can't keep dry ones in there long enough.:) For that reason, pvc pipes would be even better.
 
The room I house all my snakes in is small compared to the large rooms in the rest of the house. While the boiler struggles to keep the house at 75, that room is 80 easy. I have a thermometer in there because initially I feared it was too warm for them.

Now in the summer, when the central air is on, its a different story.

If Kathy and Don both agree a thermostat arent essential, Im sure not going to go out and buy more, thats just me. I made a little mark with a sharpie on each tank from the bottom up 3 inches so now I know how high to fill it with aspen.

The one time I did have something happen with my thermostat, like I said, I found my amel in her water, but i was NOT using that much aspen so, my bad.

Just to mention that Don said 1-3 inches of Aspen above the UT Heater. Thats how you regulate the temp on top of the aspen ( cause that is were the warm side hide will be). Shoot the temp with a digital Thermomiter, if it's to high put more aspen in or if to low take some out.
It works Great, Thanks Don
 
Just to mention that Don said 1-3 inches of Aspen above the UT Heater. Thats how you regulate the temp on top of the aspen ( cause that is were the warm side hide will be). Shoot the temp with a digital Thermomiter, if it's to high put more aspen in or if to low take some out.
It works Great, Thanks Don

My corns burrow under the aspen IN THEIR HIDE. Myself like many other people because I read it here, have the probe suction cupped onto the GLASS. Thats the temp Ive always paid attention to. I keep it between 81 and 84.

Is it safe to say they are on the glass because thats where its mid 80, not above the aspen because I dont shoot that and have no idea what temp ofthat is because Ive never paid attention to how much aspen I use. Maybe its an inch sometimes, maybe its not.

Ive never associated aspen with temperature, I always just give them enough to burrow in and be covered so they could hide...

If I packed more aspen in there and shot the top of the aspen for a temp and kept that at 84 would they not burrow? And does it really make a difference unless the thermostat stops working?
 
You know since I have 50+ critter cages ( didn't know when to stop buying corns) with UT heaters the cages that have more aspen the snakes seem to borrow more than the thinner layer. I think despite what some say I think some corns just like to borrow. You know when I try to find them I normally find them at the bottom just off of the UT heater.
John
 
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