ACLU... I hate you.

[glenhead]

Either way, I think the topic has been successfully derailed, unless someone comes in with another good post soon...

Shame, too, in my opinion. I thought it was decent and relevant conversation for a while there...

I found what I consider a danged good writeup of the case here:

http://www.scotusblog.com/wp/salazar-v-buono-the-cross-in-the-desert-argument-preview/#more-11500

I hope all will agree that it's a straightforward, objective presentation of the basics of the case. Very interesting!

The transcript of what went on in SCOTUS on the case today is here:

http://www.supremecourtus.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/08-472.pdf

As with most Supreme Court transcripts (I admit to being a bit of a junkie on this), it's an interesting glimpse into how these kinds of things are presented and argued.

For the record: If someone tries to put in a new monument or whatever on this kind of public land, I fully support its removal, as such an act is directly in violation of the rules and regulations. Therefore, I don't believe that allowing an existing thing to stand opens up any kind of precedent for things that don't exist. As I said in an earlier post, had the NPS removed the monument relatively immediately (yeah, I know that's clumsy, I'm tired), I would feel sorry for the people to whom it meant enough to erect it (had I even heard about it, which I doubt), but would have understood and supported it. Their lack of action on an "important part of the community" (to quote one of the SCOTUS documents) could certainly be viewed as a tacit acceptance and grandfathering, thus making the suit by the ACLU all the more painful. It doesn't change the legalities of it, that I acknowledge, but it's a shame people don't respect tradition and the spirit of a monument to the dead and let it be, if for no other reason than human decency.

 

[ZoologyGirl]

I suppose there are truly people who believe that EVERY plant, fungi, animal, protist and any other life form on the planet exist in exactly the same way and image as they existed hundreds of thousands of years ago. I can't imagine being that... deluded? Ignorant? Willfully in denial? But I guess it does exist...

When it comes to evolution, I think many people are just ignorant. Not necessarily purposely ignorant, but they just don't know that much about how evolution actually works.

The biggest myth I hear about evolution is that "humans are descended from monkeys/apes/what have you" or "I don't believe in evolution, I'm not descended from a chipmanzee". When someone starts with a statement like that I immediately know that they don't know what they are talking about, making any of their further arguments against evolution moot.

(I hope I made sense, I'm super tired and dozing off)

 

[jazzgeek]

OT: Heather? Is it just me, or has Hypnotoad™ been hitting the pipe?

He appears to be on overdrive.


Dale

 

[ForkedTung]

I found what I consider a danged good writeup of the case here:

http://www.scotusblog.com/wp/salazar-v-buono-the-cross-in-the-desert-argument-preview/#more-11500

I hope all will agree that it's a straightforward, objective presentation of the basics of the case. Very interesting!

The transcript of what went on in SCOTUS on the case today is here:

http://www.supremecourtus.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/08-472.pdf

As with most Supreme Court transcripts (I admit to being a bit of a junkie on this), it's an interesting glimpse into how these kinds of things are presented and argued.

For the record: If someone tries to put in a new monument or whatever on this kind of public land, I fully support its removal, as such an act is directly in violation of the rules and regulations. Therefore, I don't believe that allowing an existing thing to stand opens up any kind of precedent for things that don't exist. As I said in an earlier post, had the NPS removed the monument relatively immediately (yeah, I know that's clumsy, I'm tired), I would feel sorry for the people to whom it meant enough to erect it (had I even heard about it, which I doubt), but would have understood and supported it. Their lack of action on an "important part of the community" (to quote one of the SCOTUS documents) could certainly be viewed as a tacit acceptance and grandfathering, thus making the suit by the ACLU all the more painful. It doesn't change the legalities of it, that I acknowledge, but it's a shame people don't respect tradition and the spirit of a monument to the dead and let it be, if for no other reason than human decency.

Glen, I've only read the first link so far, but that's very interesting and would've been a great link at the beginning of this thread. Might've shortened it a bit.
I found this part particularly interesting:

In March 2001, Frank Buono, a resident of Oregon who said he regularly visited the Preserve (where he previously had served as an assistant superintendent), filed a lawsuit challenging the cross. He indicated that, as a Roman Catholic, he is not offended by a Christian cross, nor was he even offended by a religious symbol on government property if the site were open to other permanent displays. He said that, on future visits to the Preserve, he would avoid the cross. A federal judge barred the cross after ruling that Buono was entitled to challenge it because its presence subjected him to an unwelcome religious display.

Thanks for posting that link!

 

[ZoologyGirl]

OT: Heather? Is it just me, or has Hypnotoad™ been hitting the pipe?

He appears to be on overdrive.


Dale

looks the same to me :shrugs:

perhaps you are eluding his persuasions so he is having to work extra hard.

 

[Susan]

Did you see the poke'em guy at the end of my post?
Here it is oke:
What it means is that what was written previously was written in jest, like a joke, like haha, a joke, it wasn't meant to be taken seriously. No "broken rules" there.

Neither of your reported posts had a single oke:. You were apparently quite serious concerning them and I was simply stating that neither of the posts you had reported violated any rules.

So...once those of us still wishing to post REAL replies in this topic finally convince the 15 year old kid to stop posting ridiculous garbage posts that interfere with the real conversations going on...we have a moderator come in and pat another kid on the back for doing the exact same thing?

So...when your childish behavior is supported and publicly condoned by a moderator...what does that say about your ridiculous garbage post? More importantly, what does it say about the moderator?

I'm just saying...And I'll be sure to quote you on this, the next time I decide to pick random threads and post ridiculous garbage in them simply to disrupt the flow of those threads. Remember that you, specifically, told us it was perfectly acceptable to do...

Ridiculous childish garbage is posted in this forum daily by a multitude of members, depending upon your definition of "ridiculous childish garbage". If you don't like my response to frivolous reported posts (as none of the past 10 reported posts the mod team has received are about any rules being even scratched, let alone broken) you are more than welcome to do this thankless, time-consuming PITA job any time you want!

snakemaster24 made many posts on topic. He isn't allowed to do that because of his age? He also felt that the thread had gone on long enough and that most posts still being made were equivalent to beating a dead horse (and he isn't alone in his thinking). That has happened innumerable times, and I'll bet that if I had enough time, I could find posts by you that were along the exact same lines as his.

When posts by a member become trollish and go on long enough, the mod team with deal with it.

Did you click on the link in that thread? What it is in reference to? Is it OK to link to offensive acts and put down members in a thread ( basically calling them losers) when we were all having a pretty intense and mostly respectful conversation until members ( some repeatedly) exhibiting trollish behavior showed up?

What link? You reported no post that contained a link to offensive acts.

 

[Drizzt80]

So...once those of us still wishing to post REAL replies in this topic finally convince the 15 year old kid to stop posting ridiculous garbage posts that interfere with the real conversations going on...we have a moderator come in and pat another kid on the back for doing the exact same thing?

So...when your childish behavior is supported and publicly condoned by a moderator...what does that say about your ridiculous garbage post? More importantly, what does it say about the moderator?

I'm just saying...And I'll be sure to quote you on this, the next time I decide to pick random threads and post ridiculous garbage in them simply to disrupt the flow of those threads. Remember that you, specifically, told us it was perfectly acceptable to do...

. . . complains the guy that tells someone to go kill them self. Way to go Sparky. If you "didn't mean it that way" then it can only be assumed that your other long-winded, pompous, bullying, narcissistic faaaaaar leftist high horse riding, I'm better than you, driveling posts aren't necessarily "meant that way" either. The alternative is you mean what you say, and you meant for KJ to go kill himself.

tyflier, I just have to say Bravo to you! Seriously! I've read so many times "This isn't the place, etc." from moderators before and yet that statement just contradicted every other. So now that I know it's acceptable to post my opinion in any thread,then I will feel free to do so.

Including telling people to go kill them self.

Is it OK to link to offensive acts and put down members in a thread ( basically calling them losers)

Where have you been? It has been just fine and dandy on this forum to swear, faux swear, post faux porn, put down members, and tell people to kill them self . . . for quite some time. Those of you complaining right now are some of the worst offenders. Boo-farkle-hoo. Interesting, and enjoy!

depending upon your definition of "ridiculous childish garbage".

For the record, I think sparky's long-winded, pompous, bullying, narcissistic faaaaaar leftist high horse riding, I'm better than you, driveling posts are "ridiculous childish garbage".

D80

 

[Cornsnake124]

. . . complains the guy that tells someone to go kill them self. Way to go Sparky. If you "didn't mean it that way" then it can only be assumed that your other long-winded, pompous, bullying, narcissistic faaaaaar leftist high horse riding, I'm better than you, driveling posts aren't necessarily "meant that way" either. The alternative is you mean what you say, and you meant for KJ to go kill himself.

Including telling people to go kill them self.

Where have you been? It has been just fine and dandy on this forum to swear, faux swear, post faux porn, put down members, and tell people to kill them self . . . for quite some time. Those of you complaining right now are some of the worst offenders. Boo-farkle-hoo. Interesting, and enjoy!

For the record, I think sparky's long-winded, pompous, bullying, narcissistic faaaaaar leftist high horse riding, I'm better than you, driveling posts are "ridiculous childish garbage".

D80

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Drizzt80 again.

Sorry, i've given you to much rep already!

Great post anyway!!! :bowdown:

 

[jazzgeek]

. . . complains the guy that tells someone to go kill them self. Way to go Sparky. If you "didn't mean it that way" then it can only be assumed that your other long-winded, pompous, bullying, narcissistic faaaaaar leftist high horse riding, I'm better than you, driveling posts aren't necessarily "meant that way" either. The alternative is you mean what you say, and you meant for KJ to go kill himself.

Including telling people to go kill them self.

Where have you been? It has been just fine and dandy on this forum to swear, faux swear, post faux porn, put down members, and tell people to kill them self . . . for quite some time. Those of you complaining right now are some of the worst offenders. Boo-farkle-hoo. Interesting, and enjoy!

For the record, I think sparky's long-winded, pompous, bullying, narcissistic faaaaaar leftist high horse riding, I'm better than you, driveling posts are "ridiculous childish garbage".

D80

{ahem}

"Some of y'all love this internet arguing so much it's almost like . . . well, you're sitting at home, all alone, just the sound of the keys clackin' away. Lights down low, meal for one off to the side, flowers and . . .

Keep 'er goin. :crazy01:"

Have a nice day!


Dale

 

[MinLynn]

But,Brent,here's the thing.......If it's being said that anybody can post their own opinion in any thread and it is not breaking any rules,then who determines what opinions are "acceptable". I mean,sure, I wouldn't find it acceptable to tell someone to kill themselves,however if it were someone else's "opinion" then it's been stated that it's acceptable. And if the only thing that's not acceptable(other than what is already stated in the forum rules) is "trolling" then who determines what is "childish garbage" and what is "trolling"? It's all very confusing. And when I hear a mod stating over and over again what a thankless PITA job they have,then I wonder, "Why do it,then?!" I came to the conclusion a long time ago that it's not about what you contribute to this community or who you are as a member. It's about how well liked you are and who's more popular amoung the "beloved" members here. Hell, last night I was told by a member here that the only way they'd come near me is with a gun in their hand! Of course,this wasn't said on the forum,but sadly,I think even if it had been, nothing would've been done about it. Why? Because it's one of the "beloved" members. So I just tra-la-la'ed right over it. So it's not just those "trouble-makers" and "worst offenders" that say some pretty nasty stuff to other members. It's lots of the "good guys" too.

 

[tyflier]

Drizzt, I wrote a whole bunch of stuff in reply to you, and finally decided that you are simply not only a waste of flesh, but a waste of time. You're welcome to join KJUN, anytime you'd like.

As for reporting posts...Every post I have reported, other than spam, I told the person directly that I reported their post. That means KJUN recently, and Snakemastwer back in the day. I don't think I have ever reported a post other than obvious spam except those 2 times. So don't cry to me if your posts are being reported.

 

[ForkedTung]

I didn't report Brent's post, although a link to a song about Premature E. is a bit much. I did report two of David's posts because I thought they were trolling, apparently I was wrong?
It is now my understanding that I can post pictures or even just the words "nice thread, just kidding,You fail" post 342 or "Give up, Hanging in there just makes you look like an even bigger loser" post 344, basically insulting everyone participating in the thread and that's OK, because it's just my opinion.

 

[tyflier]

blablabla...
Ridiculous childish garbage is posted in this forum daily by a multitude of members, depending upon your definition of "ridiculous childish garbage". If you don't like my response to frivolous reported posts (as none of the past 10 reported posts the mod team has received are about any rules being even scratched, let alone broken) you are more than welcome to do this thankless, time-consuming PITA job any time you want!...
blablabla...

I put the bold in...the rest was a waste of time...anyhow...

If you'd care to point out where Mr. Brent has any intention other than trolling for a reaction and attempting to incite people to anger, I'd love to see it. Otherwise...this post is as worthless as his are.

And you're welcome to quit your "thankless PITA job" anytime you want. I don't know that you would be sorely missed. I DO know that as a "volunteer", you are not required to keep any "job". Which leaves me free to assume any number of reasons why you continue to "perform"...

I also like the way you tried to imply that I reported Brent's post, when you know full way who did, and that it was not me. Could be very easily be considered "trolling" for a reaction of your own on that one. Like I said..."ho you are, not what you say...

 

[KJUN]

Like I said..."ho you are, not what you say...

Was that a typo or did you mean to call our moderator a derogatory name?

Let's compare: you tell me to kill myself. I mostly ignore that childish spewing since I consider it nothing more than the cornered response from someone unable to support their statements with any better arguments. You want to see the same system than broke the "richest" economy in the nation (kalifornia) forced on all of America so we can be just as broke....and the best platform to support your statement is to tell your opponents to DIE. Still, I didn't report it (even though it seems that it was considered a threat by some) - it wasn't worth bothering the moderators over that. I'm a big boy, and I just ignore you when I'm not in the mood to get my mental hands filthy. That's more and more lately.

Now, let's look at the other side: You report my post for implying I didn't think the ACLU has ever done anything good for free America. Why not go back and report every post that ever said anything bad against PETA? ...or the NRA? Doing that would be JUST as silly. It'd just be funny if you didn't think this made sense!

 

[tyflier]

I didn't report Brent's post, although a link to a song about Premature E. is a bit much. I did report two of David's posts because I thought they were trolling, apparently I was wrong?
It is now my understanding that I can post pictures or even just the words "nice thread, just kidding,You fail" post 342 or "Give up, Hanging in there just makes you look like an even bigger loser" post 344, basically insulting everyone participating in the thread and that's OK, because it's just my opinion.

It's not OK, because you aren't Bernt...or Susan.

See...people are only entitled to post their opinion anytime they'd like in any thread they'd like, if their opinion is the same as a specific martyr...I mean moderator...and in agreement with the opinions of the conservative members of the forum.

If your opinions differ...you can rest assured that you will be reprimanded via PM, or sometimes even publicly...ironically, it's usually by the same martyr...I mean moderator...

Funny how I only ever see one moderator constantly speaking out publicly about how difficult and how much of a PITA the job is. I know it's a difficult job, and I absolutely agree that it's a PITA, and that it is entirely thankless. I go out of my way to show respect to the moderators here. But when one continually places themself atop a pedestal, and constantly and publicly complains about just how much they give to such a thankless job...well, really, it makes me wonder why such a person would continue to do such a job. Afterall...it's not like anyone forced you to be a moderator...

 

[tyflier]

Was that a typo or did you mean to call our moderator a derogatory name?

Typo. It happens.

Let's compare: you tell me to kill myself. I mostly ignore that childish spewing since I consider it nothing more than the cornered response from someone unable to support their statements with any better arguments.

Let's hold up there for a second. Every statement I've made has been FULLY supported by facts. Yours, on the other hand, have been fully supported by fringe lunatics, conspiracy theorists, and the same liars that started the garbage in the first place.

Nope...no corners here...

You want to see the same system than broke the "richest" economy in the nation (kalifornia) forced on all of America so we can be just as broke....and the best platform to support your statement is to tell your opponents to DIE.

Quote me, please. I';d like tos ee in which post I said I wanted the entire country to be "forced" into ANYthing, but specifically into what California is going through now. BTW...did you happen to notice that it is a conservative republican that put California where it is? I'm just saying...

Still, I didn't report it (even though it seems that it was considered a threat by some) - it wasn't worth bothering the moderators over that.

You want a lollipop? Just for the record...I don't make threats. Especially over the internet. I know what I said, and so do you. We both know full well it's intention. So does everyone else. Get over it. I didn't hurt you, did I?

I'm a big boy, and I just ignore you when I'm not in the mood to get my mental hands filthy. That's more and more lately.

First time for everything. Good job ignoring it, by the way. Call yourself a buig boy and pat yourself on the back all you want, but martyring yourself over a sarcastic comment makes you look like you'er reaching for support, which, by now...you [probably should be.

Now, let's look at the other side: You report my post for implying I didn't think the ACLU has ever done anything good for free America.

I reported your post for saying that anyone who has any alignment with the ACLU over the last 10 years is dishonest and unAmerican. Those are direct insults. That's against the rules. That's why I reported your post. Unlike your flunkies, I don't report posts because I find them "slightly over the line"...I report them when thay actually break the rules. Novel idea, I know, but that's the way it is.

Why not go back and report every post that ever said anything bad against PETA? ...or the NRA? Doing that would be JUST as silly. It'd just be funny if you didn't think this made sense!

Because you didn't insult me, and I probably ignored you in those threads, if I read them at all.

I reported one post, out of principle, that actually broke the rules of the forum. Don't turn it into something it isn't, though I'm certain you will. Afterall...you've turned a little sarcasm into a full blown threat of physical violence. I suppose it should be fairly easy, comparatively speaking, to turn a single act of post reporting into a constant display of sensitive whining.

Bottom line, KJUN, is that you can twist words however you want, and make them fit whatever role you need them to. It doesn't change what actually happened. Only in your mind. Of course...in your mind everyone is out to get you, so...it's easy to see why you would be so critically injured by a little sarcasm...

And here I thought you were a big boy. Them twisted panties gettin' in the way?

 

[KJUN]

Funny how I only ever see one moderator constantly speaking out publicly about how difficult and how much of a PITA the job is.

Did you miss the one where another moderator blew up twice about the "job?"
KJ

 

[KJUN]

Bottom line, KJUN, is that you can twist words however you want, and make them fit whatever role you need them to.

You said grow up or kill yourself. I don't remember the EXACT words, but I don't see how that can be twisted into ANYTHING other than you saying i should say things YOU think are "grown up ideals" or die and get out of the way of you saying what you want without argument.

You can TWIST your meaning into whatever you want, but I don't think you can make many people believe you meant anything defensible at all by that statement. Heck, I don't think many of us have heard THAT type of argument tactic since 2nd grade.

 

[tyflier]

Did you miss the one where another moderator blew up twice about the "job?"
KJ

Oooohh....twice in 2 years? Careful, someone might accuse them of whining. I've seen "others" complain more than that in the same day, on the same thread, about the same person. What's your point?

Straws are getting harder and harder to reach, aren't they?

Any minute now, I suspect you will quit this thread, and start one in your own forum, where you can threaten anyone with a different opinion that their posts will be deleted. I love it. Claims to be an American, and have pride and patriotism, but what you really want is a fascist state where one person or party (you or yours, I presume) will control everything and everyone. Where I come from we call that fascism. Of course, I'm sure you "sources", aka conspiracy theory websites, will tell you that is democracy...at least from a conservative standpoint.

So...what other shreds of "evidence" have you compiled against me? Keep going...I have a bet as to how long it takes for the steam from your ears to be visible in California...

 

[KJUN]

I reported your post for saying that anyone who has any alignment with the ACLU over the last 10 years is dishonest and unAmerican. Those are direct insults.

Find where I said such a thing. My, God. Do you really make up something and then convince yourself that it is the truth? ...or do you just pretend and act like you believe the statements you make up from thin air. Either way, I'm concerned about your well being. That's part of the reason I ignore most of what you say. I'm tired of you pretending to be less than stable.