Boa tail photo: male or female?

[RobbiesCornField]

Ok, but most people do... I do know about ball pythons preferring small vivs/drawers too. And mayeb they would have eaten in my 5 sides closeds vivs too.

One of mine in the rack is a species of arboreal rat snake that prefers the enclosed environment (actually, it seems like the less they can see, the better); while the male of the pair is in a display viv, she cannot be in one. Another is my white-lipped python. A third? African House Snake. In a viv, she eats nothing. In a tub, she's a garbage disposal. I really don't like it when people say it's just ball pythons that like the dark. Every snake, even members of the same species, need different care to a degree. I've known people to keep snakes of the same species at different temperatures, because each animal preferred a different one.

 

[Kokopelli]

Oi oi oi... Chillex :wavey:
Okay,
Look... I know a few Boa keepers from here and there... no, co-habbing is usually discouraged.
You know, it's all about you know, so a part of our opinion is based upon your well of experience...

I can tell you that Boa keepers tend to keep them separately- it also becomes more effective come breeding time, since the males can end up being desensitized to the female’s hormones.

Gestation in Boas is a big deal. It takes tons more energy out of the animal than it does for Colubrids… you know what? I’m a happy camper if the gestation ends with the female being in reasonable shape… things can take a turn for the worse in the hands of inexperienced keepers.

If you want to seriously keep these animals, try taking examples from the most successful breeders you know… I’m quite sure you’ll see that co-habbing is not something commonly practiced there.

With dangers such as Crypto, IBD, and God knows what else, it’s just not worth the risk… it seriously isn’t.
2 meters, hence, 6 feet… and 3.8 kilograms? Really? Mind posting pictures?
I have never seen an adult Boa with such a weight->size ratio… I had a female… 5.8 feet or so, she was around 8 kilogram.
Maybe if there's some specific locality involved but... pics would help, in short.

That rack comment is bollocks, I’m sorry. I use them and I find them extremely convenient… why? Well… I can easily take the tub out and clean them- sterility is a big issue, and cleaning tubs properly is a deal easier than a whole viv(and God knows they love to poop in corners).

Some of my Boas do a deal better in those drawers… they feel more secure(especially as the tubs are milky, and not 100% clear).
So no need for arguing… just consider the fact that in the wild, snakes in general, and Boas in particular, lead solitary life. It is generally a bad idea to put them in the same enclosure… compared to the distance they keep away from each other naturally, your viv is tiny

 

[SnakeAround]

I am not ignoring it, why am I asking about it here than? The harassed snake is not giving any signs that she is stressed, if she would have I would have separated them already. And I cannot help that you think boa's need larger vivs than this to be kept together. Over here people don't. Further I have always showed my vivs and mentioned their size. Believe me, over here the way I do it is just about as all conscious co-habbers do it. We prefer that over (drawers) in racks. I think I have never stated that co-habbing is much better by the way, just that I prefer it. I never condemned rack systems or talked people who use them down or told them my way is better. Each has pro's and con's and after balancing those I prefer co-habbing.

 

[starsevol]

I am not ignoring it, why am I asking about it here than? The harassed snake is not giving any signs that she is stressed, if she would have I would have separated them already. And I cannot help that you think boa's need larger vivs than this to be kept together. Over here people don't. Further I have always showed my vivs and mentioned their size. Believe me, over here the way I do it is just about as all conscious co-habbers do it. We prefer that over (drawers) in racks. I think I have never stated that co-habbing is much better by the way, just that I prefer it. I never condemned rack systems or talked people who use them down or told them my way is better. Each has pro's and con's and after balancing those I prefer co-habbing.

Of course the harassed snake is not showing signs of stress. In the natural world if you show weakness, you die. Many times a stressed snake will show no signs at all, just up and die one day months or years before their time.

And like I said, no matter what the standards are over there, apparently Americans value the safety and comfort and well being of their animals much much more than they do over there. I distinctly remember you saying that your way is much better than rack systems because the snakes have more space. BULLOX.
You prefer it because you can cram more animals in, regardless of their well being. That's the only reason. Says it all.

 

[SnakeAround]

Oi oi oi... Chillex :wavey:
Okay,
Look... I know a few Boa keepers from here and there... no, co-habbing is usually discouraged.
You know, it's all about you know, so a part of our opinion is based upon your well of experience...

I can tell you that Boa keepers tend to keep them separately- it also becomes more effective come breeding time, since the males can end up being desensitized to the female’s hormones.

Gestation in Boas is a big deal. It takes tons more energy out of the animal than it does for Colubrids… you know what? I’m a happy camper if the gestation ends with the female being in reasonable shape… things can take a turn for the worse in the hands of inexperienced keepers.

If you want to seriously keep these animals, try taking examples from the most successful breeders you know… I’m quite sure you’ll see that co-habbing is not something commonly practiced there.

With dangers such as Crypto, IBD, and God knows what else, it’s just not worth the risk… it seriously isn’t.
2 meters, hence, 6 feet… and 3.8 kilograms? Really? Mind posting pictures?
I have never seen an adult Boa with such a weight->size ratio… I had a female… 5.8 feet or so, she was around 8 kilogram.
Maybe if there's some specific locality involved but... pics would help, in short.

That rack comment is bollocks, I’m sorry. I use them and I find them extremely convenient… why? Well… I can easily take the tub out and clean them- sterility is a big issue, and cleaning tubs properly is a deal easier than a whole viv(and God knows they love to poop in corners).

Some of my Boas do a deal better in those drawers… they feel more secure(especially as the tubs are milky, and not 100% clear).
So no need for arguing… just consider the fact that in the wild, snakes in general, and Boas in particular, lead solitary life. It is generally a bad idea to put them in the same enclosure… compared to the distance they keep away from each other naturally, your viv is tiny

Your answer makes sense, maybe I have not seen the right examples and bumped into the wrong people who told me it is ok to do so. Maybe it is just people who do not want to breed who do so. By the way, I never intended to keep a couple together, which I know is done so too here. But do you mean Dutch breeders too? Or European?

This is the smaller female when she was weighed in July (at the moment she is close to two meters so back than a wee bit smaller). She weighed 3400 grams than:

 

[BloodyBaroness]

Oi oi oi... Chillex :wavey:
Okay,
Look... I know a few Boa keepers from here and there... no, co-habbing is usually discouraged.
You know, it's all about you know, so a part of our opinion is based upon your well of experience...

I can tell you that Boa keepers tend to keep them separately- it also becomes more effective come breeding time, since the males can end up being desensitized to the female’s hormones.

Gestation in Boas is a big deal. It takes tons more energy out of the animal than it does for Colubrids… you know what? I’m a happy camper if the gestation ends with the female being in reasonable shape… things can take a turn for the worse in the hands of inexperienced keepers.

If you want to seriously keep these animals, try taking examples from the most successful breeders you know… I’m quite sure you’ll see that co-habbing is not something commonly practiced there.

With dangers such as Crypto, IBD, and God knows what else, it’s just not worth the risk… it seriously isn’t.
2 meters, hence, 6 feet… and 3.8 kilograms? Really? Mind posting pictures?
I have never seen an adult Boa with such a weight->size ratio… I had a female… 5.8 feet or so, she was around 8 kilogram.
Maybe if there's some specific locality involved but... pics would help, in short.

That rack comment is bollocks, I’m sorry. I use them and I find them extremely convenient… why? Well… I can easily take the tub out and clean them- sterility is a big issue, and cleaning tubs properly is a deal easier than a whole viv(and God knows they love to poop in corners).

Some of my Boas do a deal better in those drawers… they feel more secure(especially as the tubs are milky, and not 100% clear).
So no need for arguing… just consider the fact that in the wild, snakes in general, and Boas in particular, lead solitary life. It is generally a bad idea to put them in the same enclosure… compared to the distance they keep away from each other naturally, your viv is tiny

I'm glad you chimed in Oren.

Honestly, he is the source you want to listen to. Boas are his focus and I'm certain he has gotten information from some of the best boa breeders in the business, from ALL over the world.

The behaviors you are describe sounds like that start of something that will build. Just because it's not a problem right now, does not mean the stress will eventually cause problems.

Separate them. If you can't have two vivs, keep the boa you like best. Put your desire for more animals aside, and think about the long term welfare of those animals.

 

[SnakeAround]

I am starting to think I will have to take that difficult decision...

 

[BloodyBaroness]

I am starting to think I will have to take that difficult decision...

Sometimes we have to put what we want aside and really think about what is best for animals.

I have a female monster tail BCI, she is going to be a big girl when she is full grown. I also love love love the look of many of the boa morphs and locality types, but I know my living space can only support one cage that size.

It means more to me that my one boa can have a nice sized viv, with great climbing space, room to soak, room bask and room to stretch out and be a boa. I am not going to sacrifice her space just so I can have another boa. Her well being means so much more to me.

They are our pets. We should give them best possible. Not make them deal with half as much because we wanted more.

 

[Kokopelli]

I don’t oppose co-habbing as vehemently as others( can you hear them gathering the torches and pitchforks?) since I see people do it and their animals don’t die within minutes. I am an opinionated person, I won’t claim I’m not… but I’d like to think that I have toned down the force of my statements… no matter long I’ll keep Boas… there’s something new to learn every day.

I DO disagree with the concept though and do whatever I can to avoid it(I have no co-habbit going on right now).
Why?

1- I feel responsible for the welfare of my animal. In the wild, they would choose to keep away… I don’t believe I should force them into the same enclosure, regardless to how spacious it is.
In the wild, they keep clear of their pooping location- this is one of their main ways to prevent re-infection and growth of parasitic infections to dangerous levels… for one snake in a viv it’s hard enough… for 2, it’s just Impossible.


2- Stress… dear, stress is the bane of all snakes. Co-habbing can, and probably does, increase the level of stress. Females who are forced to copulate are under immense stress… rival males, rival females… heck, rival predators… this stress screws up their immune system something fierce… in the long term, I believe there are very serious ramifications.


3- Having gone toe to toe with Crypto… I can’t stress enough how important sterility is, and what a TOTAL waste it is to lose two animals, or more, just because you didn’t keep them separately…

I may or may not convince you… I can’t force you though- So I can only suggest to reconsider and review your sources… what the worse that can happen? You’ll learn something new.

The animal looks healthy… not prime shape for breeding at the moment, she’s just a tad low on fat reserves… she definitely strikes me as a BCI… are you POSITIVE about the 6 feet mark though? Try and measure her, I’ll think you’ll be surprised…

 

[Kokopelli]

Ah and I meant globally- US, Europe, whatever breeding facility you appreciate. Learn from the best, and than decide for yourself

 

[AliCat37]

I'm actually a little surprised that this thread got to 7 pages. I tried to stay away from the "no cohabbing!" in my first post, but I feel that my first post went unanswered.
Considering that most people I know here in the US will keep a single adult female in a 6 x 3 cage (that is what the centimeters worked out to be), I do not believe you have enough room for two- especially when you consider that they are harassing each other! The fact that they are both eating doesn't mean much, in my experience, boas hardly ever turn down a meal, don't even stop to sniff it when changing from one prey species to another, I doubt the stress of cohabbing would change their feeding.

I have my male boa in a 4x2 cage, you can fit a small adult female in one of those, and they'll have plenty of room to move around.

As far as keeping snakes in drawers.. my boa was raised in one until he moved to his adult cage. 13 of my other snakes are kept in drawers, they are just as "happy" so have you as the ones in the bigger, natural cages. It is my experience and belief that if the snake is getting fed on a regular basis, it most likely is just going to want to hang out under its hide. I believe that smaller living spaces = less stress on the animal. My ball python nearly *died* when he was in a nice naturalistic enclosure. Once he moved to the rack, all his shedding/eating and other health issues disappeared. I know how difficult it is to not anthropomorphize the animals, but I feel that it is important to remember that as keepers, we have to do what is best for them- not us.

 

[SnakeAround]

I don’t oppose co-habbing as vehemently as others( can you hear them gathering the torches and pitchforks?) since I see people do it and their animals don’t die within minutes. I am an opinionated person, I won’t claim I’m not… but I’d like to think that I have toned down the force of my statements… no matter long I’ll keep Boas… there’s something new to learn every day.

I DO disagree with the concept though and do whatever I can to avoid it(I have no co-habbit going on right now).
Why?

1- I feel responsible for the welfare of my animal. In the wild, they would choose to keep away… I don’t believe I should force them into the same enclosure, regardless to how spacious it is.
In the wild, they keep clear of their pooping location- this is one of their main ways to prevent re-infection and growth of parasitic infections to dangerous levels… for one snake in a viv it’s hard enough… for 2, it’s just Impossible.


2- Stress… dear, stress is the bane of all snakes. Co-habbing can, and probably does, increase the level of stress. Females who are forced to copulate are under immense stress… rival males, rival females… heck, rival predators… this stress screws up their immune system something fierce… in the long term, I believe there are very serious ramifications.


3- Having gone toe to toe with Crypto… I can’t stress enough how important sterility is, and what a TOTAL waste it is to lose two animals, or more, just because you didn’t keep them separately…

I may or may not convince you… I can’t force you though- So I can only suggest to reconsider and review your sources… what the worse that can happen? You’ll learn something new.

The animal looks healthy… not prime shape for breeding at the moment, she’s just a tad low on fat reserves… she definitely strikes me as a BCI… are you POSITIVE about the 6 feet mark though? Try and measure her, I’ll think you’ll be surprised…

You think she is smaller or larger? I just compare her to the viv length, and she seems a tail larger than the viv. I will try to tape measure thrm

 

[Kokopelli]

Smaller...
I wonder what are the odds of them both being males... she seems well built for a male actually.

I'd go to another keeper with both...

It's also possible that she's a cross of some smaller locality such as Panama...

If she IS a female, she needs to gain a bit of weight to be in shape for breeding.

 

[SnakeAround]

The one on the photo is the smaller one, which I do not doubt. Her tail is only a hand long and tapers strongly.

 

[Kokopelli]

Again, that's like saying that if you have legs -this- long, you're a man.
It doesn't quite work like that... it's all averages, and not neccessarily of crosses, if these are indeed crosses.

I suggest having both probed again.

 

[Kevin S.]

Have you tried the rub method? Boas are the simplest of all snakes to sex in my experience-just put a finger at the vent and rub toward the tail tip with light pressure along the venter. You can't miss it if it's a male-you'll feel the hemipene as a kind of elastic bulge under your finger. I haven't personally used it on large adults, but it works like a charm for boas up to 3 feet in my experience.

 

[SnakeAround]

But what if they probe female but the behaviour continues? I think I have to start to accept that I need to rehome one of them anyway

 

[BloodyBaroness]

But what if they probe female but the behaviour continues? I think I have to start to accept that I need to rehome one of them anyway

Those behaviors are a warning sign.

Either way, that enclosure won't work for two fully grown boas.

Honestly, if you don't have space to house both of them separately, then one really needs to be rehomed. It's in the boa's best interest.

 

[Kokopelli]

Have you tried the rub method? Boas are the simplest of all snakes to sex in my experience-just put a finger at the vent and rub toward the tail tip with light pressure along the venter. You can't miss it if it's a male-you'll feel the hemipene as a kind of elastic bulge under your finger. I haven't personally used it on large adults, but it works like a charm for boas up to 3 feet in my experience.

It works for neonates at best...
Adults are way too strong for this to work.

 

[Kevin S.]

It works for neonates at best...
Adults are way too strong for this to work.

It definitely works for boas larger than neonates and apparently can be performed on adult blood pythons as well (see video). I don't see how strength would be a factor with this method? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2l1-aSEKa1A