Corns living together?? Yes or no?

[HaisseM]

Okay, first of all... I cannot believe we're even having this discussion YET AGAIN.

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I don't think those two points have anything to do with each other at all. Living alone or together has nothing to do with eating dead food. Period.

The point is, if you're going to say snakes are naturally solitary, but you feed your snakes dead food then you are no longer going along with the natural theme you started off with.

Evolution? Are you kidding me? Corn snakes in captivity for 50 years or less does not count for jack in the big picture that is evolution. That is rediculous. There are very few "domesticated" animals that have actually been taken the majority away from their wild counterparts. Livestock and dogs. There isn't a single "domesticated" or "tame" reptile in the world. Every one of them is still capable of doing exactly what they do in the wild. That is why there are scores of "pet" burmese and reticulated pythons living wild in the Everglades after "for generations being bred as people's pets". By the way, those animals, even the ones that are still in captivity, are still potentially dangerous. My burmese python could kill me, and I know that. If corns were big enough, they'd be capable of it too. Breeding them in captivity doesn't change that this early in the big scheme of things.

it may not change it in your mind, but we're talking about naturally unaggressive animals so yes over time their "aggression" would lower over time. if you're not aggressive in the first place and get taken out of your naturally setting you're still not aggressive

If you'd like to read more about evolution and corns, go here to this thread that a few of us very actively participated in for several months two years ago: http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17597&highlight=captivity . 16 pages' worth of good discussion on the topic of corn snake "evolution" in captivity. You don't have to agree with either side, but it's a good discussion.

i'll check it out

So 2 males is not okay because of aggression, 2 females are not okay because of aggression, but a male and a female is fine for a 15 year old novice to house together so instead of aggression during the breeding season you get the female accidentally becoming gravid? That's smart.

nope, I agree, it only happens with the proper care, and I don't think any of us can judge anyone of whither or not they would give they corn snake proper care at this point just because of age... Heck i'm 31 and people say i'm a horrible keeper (people on this board)

1. Nobody's perfect, and mistakes happen. Sooner or later, your snake will get sick. Of the people here that have been keeping snakes for awhile, I'd be willing to bet that we've all had at least an RI or something at some point. So are we irresponsible and bad owners?

I never said that. my snakes have been sick, you're right it happens, but with two snakes in the cage, just means I have to take them both to the vet

2. To learn WHY one threw up, you'd need to know which one it came from. Maybe they're SICK? To me, a regurge is a bigger display of poor husbandry in adult snakes than a simple RI or parasite.

Its not that hard to tell which regurged, at least not to me.

3. Why risk it? If you're housing them together in the first place you're already ignoring the advice of the majority of the members here, so who's to say the feeding size/amount is correct? Maybe you know better than all of us on that topic too.

LOL, See thats what I don't understand, everyone talks about WHY risk it, we risk our lives everyday just by walking outside....... It can be a bigger risk if proper care isn't taken, but for the answer to be "NO, don't do it" doesn't incompass whither or we're talking about someone who will give the snakes proper care

4. I'll agree that keeping a corn on newspaper in an aquarium is not natural (nor am I saying it's harmful if done correctly), but how is ANY enclosure or substrate natural? There are walls somewhere, right? And at that, how is housing two corns together making ANYTHING any more natural?

exactly..... we've already taken it from its "Natural setting" now were trying to pretend like its still in its "Natural setting"

I don't normally blow up on people on here but holy crap, read and take some advice from the rest of us before dispensing garbage. I'm not right all the time, no, but I'm not going to act authoritative and give a whole column of bad advice to a 15 year old who doesn't know not to listen to it.

Huh? I didn't dispense garbage, I told a someone (age really doesn't matter) that it can be done and it can.... There is no garbage in that. The garbage is when people say it can't be done or its tooo dangerous.

 

[HaisseM]

Because you don't cohab yourself, I feel I can say this without you becoming offended, as it is not my intent to offend you....

but housing two snakes together "because you really wanted to" is the stupidest reason for anyone to do it. That's just code for "too cheap to buy a second UTH, cage, and water bowl". Just because you really really want to house them together isn't going to fix or prevent all of the potential problems involved. Your snakes are not going to say "let's leave a little sign on this mouse when I puke it up to identify which one of us it came from. I wouldn't normally do this, but since our owner really really wanted us together I'd like to avoid causing him problems"

The only "good" reason for two snakes to be housed together is if the intent is to breed, and that's ONLY a good reason if the owner/keeper knows what they're doing and is intending for that to happen in a safe, know-how-it-works environment.

Its nothing to do with cheap, i have 3 bins 3 water dishes and 2 lights.... Cohabing is choice nothing to do with money . There are potential problems in anything you do...... And yes you can limit the problems by not doing this and not doing that but then again you can limit those problems by not buying a corn snake also....

I'd be more curious to know how many people have had there mouse regurge and whither or not their snake is in a cage with another snake...... Since its such a big issue

 

[HaisseM]

Just a note on the passing diseases portion of this thread...
Cornsnakes (heck from what I understand a lot of colubrid species) can carry crypto for years without any signs of it.
So just because you "think" your snakes are not sick, does not necessarily make it true. If one of them has crypto, and you choose to co-hab them, then the 2nd one is definately going to come down with it. And someday, when the signs show themselves, you will have no idea which snake it came from in the first place.
Crypto is deadly and uncurable so why would you want to risk exposing another snake to it by unnecessarily cohabitating them?
Just another example of "you may not see a problem, but the problem can exist". And there is just no good reason to risk the health of your snakes just because you want them to live together or think they like it.

Come on seriously.... Their are human disease that can sit around for years before you know you have one..... Do you not go any further with people... you know what i mean....

 

[HaisseM]

I just want to clarify this point from before, when I had to leave the discussion.

When I said that aggression is partly "environmentally determined" that doesn't mean strictly the natural environment. Environment just means any surroundings. I wasn't saying that the natural environment (of Florida, for example) is what makes cornsnakes aggressive and that taking them out of the wild and into captivity is taking the aggression away. When you take something from the wild and begin breeding it in captivity, you aren't taking it out of THE environment...you are just changing the environment.

I don't really like being around a lot of people (I guess you could say I'm sort of solitary... :grin01: ). Now, this aversion to groups of people is probably partially genetic and partially environmental. In this instance, just as with the example about aggression, I'm not referring to the strict definition of environment as it applies to the outdoors. Because whether it was sunny or cloudy during my childhood probably didn't play a big role in my aversion to groups of people. However, the home environment I grew up in would influence me. In this case, my older sisters pushing me around in toy cars and purposely wrecking me into things would be an environmental influence that would influence my aversion towards groups of people. The fact that I grew up in the country and wasn't around large groups of people regularly could have played a role. Again this would be an environmental influence because it is my surroundings, but it doesn't necessarily have to be referring directly to the outdoorsy/nature definition of environment.

Ummm, you realize you're proving my point right? Because what you're saying and please correct me if i'm wrong, but Their are many different factors that went into your childhood that made you a solitary person if you had a more positive upbringing then you probably wouldn't be so against hanging out with other people?

 

[HaisseM]

Three pages of this? Good god.

Let's start off with this website that was presented (www.snakpictures.co.uk) and some of the information, and remember that this guy knows a lot about corns as said by the OP:



Funny, checking out his website I see this:



So this is interesting---this guy obviously 'knows a lot about corn snakes' with his extensive background of two animals.

So probing into the website more I dig up this:



But then further down the page....



That's interesting. I could have sworn this is 2007---and I highly doubt that this guy had his own 'snake pictures' website in 1997 or 1998. Soo...??

But that's fine, perhaps it was just an error. I'll search around some more. And we come to the cohabitation comment under the 'questions' portion of this website.



Well I'm sure glad he's giving us his expert advice on keeping his two snakes together. Gosh, I guess that means if I visit the Kennedy Space Center for a few hours I can be an astronaut, right?

Oh, and here's another charmer:



Quite difficult? Impossible? Hmm, I could have sworn that females tails tapered drastically after the vent and normally were much shorter than males tails---which do not taper directly after the vent and are usually much longer. Guess I should go sleep in a Holiday Inn Express.


So basically, this dude is a 'tard who has no business giving out advice when:



Amazing how one can be given all the advice ever need in snake care after a few trips to the local pet store. What I find even more amazing is the fact that since he has been given all the advice he'll ever need---why does he need to call the pet shop and/or bring the snake in for a 'onceover' by the guy in the shop? A bit contradictory, isn't it?

Also it's pretty funny that when 'Alice', his female cornsnake, became gravid he separated her from the male? If cohabitation is fine and dandy, like he says, why separate them? Hmm.....

You're trying to nitpick and just by reading what you posted from his site, and actually checking out his site, I'd think you just trying to discredit him and not giving actually reading any of the info on his site

 

[snakewispera snr]

You're trying to nitpick and just by reading what you posted from his site, and actually checking out his site, I'd think you just trying to discredit him and not giving actually reading any of the info on his site

So after telling most people here they are wrong on co-habitation,you publish pics of kinks and don't know what they are... So I for one won't be listening to any advice you may want to offer and as for your opinion, I won't loose any sleep if you rant at me.
MIKE

 

[HaisseM]

So after telling most people here they are wrong on co-habitation,you publish pics of kinks and don't know what they are... So I for one won't be listening to any advice you may want to offer and as for your opinion, I won't loose any sleep if you rant at me.
MIKE

Ummm, I've had 6 batches of eggs with no problem, just moved to a new state for the last year that is very different than coming from AZ... and no you don't have to listen to me, I don't expect you to.... I posted that picture because I don't need to hide anything good or bad I share whatever I can....

and yes i'm sitting in front of my computer all day today

 

[PtDnsr]

First things first. I wasn't able to give reputation to Dean (#27 and #51), Nanci (#38), Dale (#57 - loved and 67) or Joe (#94 and 95). Kudos to you guys and those imaginary rep points. It's taken me ages to read this and I'm going to be referencing many things - but not quoting since I don't have the time nor the inclination to go back and find the quote.

Post 22 - About getting mites from the food. Mites are specific to a certain type of animal...mammals, birds, reptiles. Getting mites from a mouse probably didn't happen. Most likely you didn't notice the mites when you got one of them (but you don't know which one now)

Post 32 - I was going to pick this apart but it's been beaten to death and people have moved on.

Post 41 - Is it possible that your anery liked the conditions in the second tank which is why it started eating? Not that it "liked" cohabitating? It's very hard to get conditions exactly the same - maybe a hide was different or the warm spot was more to it's liking. There are many variables that could have affected the snake starting to eat.

Post 76 - I completely agree with Dean. I actually find it harder during breeding season with pairs together than when each snake is housed individually. Not to mention with racks 12 snakes take up a whole lot less space than housing two together in a viv would be (think in floor space because of viv stands).

All in all people will do what they want to do. I don't cohab and don't recommend it because so many things can go wrong. I didn't know better and our first two hatchlings we had were cohabbed. They got out the beginning of December 2004 - 1 month after we'd gotten one of them (we'd had the other since August of that year). I found the youngest three weeks later in our foyer right near where the tank was. We never found the other snake that was our first. I just think that there are too many things that can go wrong and it's not worth the risk. I don't feed live because it's not worth the risk to me. Truthfully you could say it's all about me to some extent - it's easier for me to keep them apart, it's easier for me to not feed live so I don't have to watch them until they're done - but each thing also benefits the snake and lowers the risk to the snake. This topic has been beaten to death and will continue along the same way. I know from experience that cohabbing is bad and I'd like to pass on the lessons I've learned. Unfortunately I can only pass them on if others are willing to listen.

~Katie

 

[ArpeggioAngel]

Come on seriously.... Their are human disease that can sit around for years before you know you have one..... Do you not go any further with people... you know what i mean....

We - as humans - can make decisions regarding our own welfare. If someone was afraid of getting sick, or being hit by a bus or whatever - we have the choice to make decisions to prevent ourselves from running into those situations. If we don't want to risk something - we don't have to.

With pets - they don't have that choice. Their only choice is what WE subject them to. Pets are a responsibility, and as a responsible owner, we should do whatever we can to prevent them from becoming sick, injured, stressed out or killed.

There are no proven benefits to cohabitating other than saving a person money - which is in the persons best interest - not the snakes.

 

[zwyatt]

Ummm, you realize you're proving my point right? Because what you're saying and please correct me if i'm wrong, but Their are many different factors that went into your childhood that made you a solitary person if you had a more positive upbringing then you probably wouldn't be so against hanging out with other people?

First of all, don't ever make any assumptions about the positivity of my upbringing. When did I once say that my upbringing wasn't positive? Don't put words into my mouth. And when did I say that I don't like hanging out with other people? I don't always enjoy large groups of people. That's hardly the same as what you have said.


Secondly, no, I did prove your point in the least. You obviously have a some sort of blockage that is preventing you from understanding the basic concepts of what I am saying. Other folks must be getting it. Otherwise, they aren't speaking up and saying that it doesn't make sense.
You are assuming that the captive surroundings in which cornsnakes are bred and kept are inherently more positive than nature. On what basis can you possibly even begin to suggest something like that? You have know how idea how a cornsnake thinks. As far as you know cornsnakes would be much happier being born in the wild. At least then they would have some camoflauge and likely not have to encounter a predator on a daily basis. Instead, we keep them indoors in small quarters with relatively few places to hide and we humans, who certainly must be interpreted as predators at least for quite some time, invade their privacy on a regular basis. Imagine the terror it creates for a hatchling cornsnake when a massive human comes in, grabs it right out of its hiding spot and starts handling it. Imagine the fear they must experience. How positive of an upbringing can that be?

How's that for proving your point?

 

[Rich in KY]

I think I know how a majority of people here feel about cohabbing.

But, how does everyone feel about the troops being in Iraq :eek1:

 

[HaisseM]

First of all, don't ever make any assumptions about the positivity of my upbringing. When did I once say that my upbringing wasn't positive? Don't put words into my mouth. And when did I say that I don't like hanging out with other people? I don't always enjoy large groups of people. That's hardly the same as what you have said.

thats the impression you left me with your post....

Secondly, no, I did prove your point in the least. You obviously have a some sort of blockage that is preventing you from understanding the basic concepts of what I am saying. Other folks must be getting it. Otherwise, they aren't speaking up and saying that it doesn't make sense.
You are assuming that the captive surroundings in which cornsnakes are bred and kept are inherently more positive than nature. On what basis can you possibly even begin to suggest something like that? You have know how idea how a cornsnake thinks. As far as you know cornsnakes would be much happier being born in the wild. At least then they would have some camoflauge and likely not have to encounter a predator on a daily basis. Instead, we keep them indoors in small quarters with relatively few places to hide and we humans, who certainly must be interpreted as predators at least for quite some time, invade their privacy on a regular basis. Imagine the terror it creates for a hatchling cornsnake when a massive human comes in, grabs it right out of its hiding spot and starts handling it. Imagine the fear they must experience. How positive of an upbringing can that be?

How's that for proving your point?

Ummmmm, lets see...... What does that have to do with what were talking about? I can't think of anyone who KNOWS what a corn snake likes and dislikes yet alot of us are telling what should and should not be done based on information we've read and some based on information we've experienced. I for one think you can cohab, although its not just a yes answer (the conditions have to be right) <--- bringing it all back to topic

 

[ssmith_1187]

But, how does everyone feel about the troops being in Iraq

Well Rich...I let me first start off by saying that I have seen a trend in United States domestic policy that started in the Ford administration and has continued to this day.

Every President since 1974 have all agreed that co-habitation of corn snakes is a bad idea.

There you have it, if the most powerful people in Washington think it’s a bad idea…why take the risk?

Regards,
Steve

 

[jazzgeek]

Every President since 1974 have all agreed that co-habitation of corn snakes is a bad idea.

Further proof that:

1. Gerald Ford DID save the country from "our long national nightmare".
2. Nixon screwed up EVERYTHING.
3. Clinton didn't cohab; he was just "out of brumation".
4. Dubya, using his usual logic, tried feeding his snake corn.

That's my time, you've been a great crowd.

regards,
Will Durst

 

[starsevol]

thats the impression you left me with your post....



Ummmmm, lets see...... What does that have to do with what were talking about? I can't think of anyone who KNOWS what a corn snake likes and dislikes yet alot of us are telling what should and should not be done based on information we've read and some based on information we've experienced. I for one think you can cohab, although its not just a yes answer (the conditions have to be right) <--- bringing it all back to topic

Yup, YOU think you can co-hab because you think you have the "right" conditions. The very first post I ever read from you was about not knowing which of your co-habitated snakes was the female. It totally mystifies me how you DON'T know which is which! If you don't even know the sex of your co-habitated snakes, you aren't all that credible, IMO.

There are definate risks to co-habbing, and NO RISKS to housing singly. People here have had snakes DIE from co-habbing, but you just blow it off. You say, "life has risks", and you CHOOSE to force your snakes to take risks, when you don't have to. That says a world about you right there.

We say snakes are solitary animals in nature, and you yammer on about thawed food. Well, we feed thawed food to lessen the risk of injury to our pets. We have listed MULTIPLE risks in co-habitating. Can you name ONE SINGLE risk of injury in housing an animal singly?

 

[HaisseM]

Yup, YOU think you can co-hab because you think you have the "right" conditions. The very first post I ever read from you was about not knowing which of your co-habitated snakes was the female. It totally mystifies me how you DON'T know which is which! If you don't even know the sex of your co-habitated snakes, you aren't all that credible, IMO.

There are definate risks to co-habbing, and NO RISKS to housing singly. People here have had snakes DIE from co-habbing, but you just blow it off. You say, "life has risks", and you CHOOSE to force your snakes to take risks, when you don't have to. That says a world about you right there.

We say snakes are solitary animals in nature, and you yammer on about thawed food. Well, we feed thawed food to lessen the risk of injury to our pets. We have listed MULTIPLE risks in co-habitating. Can you name ONE SINGLE risk of injury in housing an animal singly?

BOREDOM, LONELYNESS, I think i read somewhere on this forum about a snake eating itself ....... So nothing is safe

and about my asking the sex of my snakes.... I have a good idea which is female and which is male, and I actaully took them to a vet when i first got them but I wanted to know for sure 100% since the vet said this looks like a male based on these traits but they were young so he wasn't 100%

So yea I THINK i can co-hab because i have the right conditions, those conditions have allowed me to do it thus far without a problem so I must be doing something right

 

[HaisseM]

I think I know how a majority of people here feel about cohabbing.

But, how does everyone feel about the troops being in Iraq :eek1:

The topic was coming back no matter what, I was just giving someone else a chance to bring it back

 

[Rich in KY]

[*]Clinton didn't cohab; he was just "out of brumation".
[*]Dubya, using his usual logic, tried feeding his snake corn.
[/list]That's my time, you've been a great crowd.

regards,
Will Durst

Clinton tries cohabbing once, but swears he didn't inhale!

Dubya still doesn't know what cohabbing is

 

[susang]

"nope, I agree, it only happens with the proper care, and I don't think any of us can judge anyone of whither or not they would give they corn snake proper care at this point just because of age... Heck i'm 31 and people say i'm a horrible keeper (people on this board)" quote Messiah

I can't believe you mocked me for leaving the e off of eggs.

 

[Rich in KY]

yep, says he didn't inhale :sidestep: