Could Tesseras Be Hybrids?

[El Jefe]

Guess ya missed the title

That I did. :uhoh:

 

[chris68]

Jeff makes a good point; we DON'T know anything about them other than they were brought to Grahams attention by KJ, and it was a 2.1 group of "striped "corns that were noticed to have the black bordering the stripe, unlike the "striped" morph corns. We just have their judgement and knowledge to base our own decisions.

FWIW I don't think they are hybrids, and really wouldn't care if they were proven to be. I've said it before, I say it again; if you want pure corn snakes, go catch one. NOTHING is 100% for sure when dealing with morph corns. Too much has gone on over the years that no one of are privy too, or even have a clue about. We're dealing with pretty "pet" snakes, it's enough for me to let it be at that. There are several folks online that work with pure colubrids, be it corns, kings, milks, rats etc. that will give you their word they are what they are. Find those folks and they'll reward you with a beautiful Alabama corn snake, or a stunning Outer Banks king, or an eye popping Everglades rat. Want to keep messing with "morphs", be prepared to deal with the reality.

And one more time lest a furor be raised, I do not think Tessera's are hybrid garter/corns; I think they are a new exciting morph among many in the corn snake world

 

[grdn1014]

Creamcicles, corn and rat snake, are fertile as far as I understand. Jungles, corn and california king snake, are not fertile themselves. Beyond that, including what a previous poster mentioned about garter snakes giving live birth, it seems unlikely that Tessera being a dominant (or co-dominant) gene could spawn from hybrid blood.

 

[Shiari]

Jungles are fertile. How else did you think Super Corns happened?

 

[NikeMoth]

Does anybody have a photograph of a Leopard Rat Snake's underbelly?

 

[Shiari]

From what I could find using googlefu, the bellies of BOTH the blotched and the stripe is black with white 'checks' on the very edge, almost look like extreme het diffused.

 

[DMong]

I don't see any possibility from the mode of inheritence, or from what I have ever seen in any of them for these to be ANYTHING but cornsnakes with a bizarre genetic pattern mutation. There are alot of things in the animal world that are very similar to other things but are actually as different as night and day. For instance, a 100% authentic hypoxanthic(extreme reduction of yellow pigment) Yellow Ratsnake I saw back in 1996 was light gray with the exception of the snout and chin which had some slight yellow on it, and it was not an anerythristic striped cornsnake...it was ALL 100%genuine Yellow Ratsnake that looked very different than it normally would. As a matter of fact, the guy had it labeled as anerythristic, but since it didn't involve red pigment(erythrin) as the consnake mutation does, but did involve yellow pigment, it was actually a hypoxanthic specimen. The guy simply called it anery because it "looked very similar to the common corn mutation but is nothing even CLOSE in all reality.

If the Tessera's were Leopard rat crosses, they would NOT have been found on line as simply everyday "striped" corns, they would have been all trumped up by hybridizer's as the very latest, most awesome hybrid success to hit the market as there are no European rat x corn crosses like this.

They also are not from being crossed with a Garter snake either as there would never be any viable eggs produced, just a big gooey pile of mush at best from the corn laying eggs(oviparous), and the Garter Snake giving live birth as others have already mentioned. The genes just wouldn't be compatible allelic-wise.

Also, the normal offspring from any Tessera corn breedings would have tell-tale hybrid markers pop up here and there from the Leopard Rat (E.situla) influence, such as the unique looking head,... and they very much DO NOT!.....they are 100% genuine cornsnake in every single characteristic except for the bizarre pattern mutation.....it's really all as simple as that.

LOTS of other stuff in the hobby are most certainly abomination combinations of man-made crosses (hey, that rhymes), but the Tessera corns are certainly not one of these whatsoever......they just aren't.


~Doug

 

[AliCat37]

I agree that while they look like garter crosses it's impossible to breed the two. It's a form of convergent evolution, much like the green tree python and the green tree boa look EXACTLY the same but are not related at all. In fact, they come from two continents separated by oceans. I believe Tesseras look like garters because of convergent evolution, they simply had the genes to create a neat pattern that garters have been using for quite some time. Either way, I love tesseras and I am really excited to bring one home

 

[DMong]

I agree that while they look like garter crosses it's impossible to breed the two. It's a form of convergent evolution, much like the green tree python and the green tree boa look EXACTLY the same but are not related at all. In fact, they come from two continents separated by oceans. I believe Tesseras look like garters because of convergent evolution, they simply had the genes to create a neat pattern that garters have been using for quite some time. Either way, I love tesseras and I am really excited to bring one home

Yes, that's right. The Green Tree Python (Morelia viridis) and the Emerald Tree Boa (Corallus caninus) would be another great example of two snakes that seem virtually identical to many people, but are indeed two VERY different and unique types of snakes altogether. Same with juvenile North American Ratsnakes all looking virtually the same as hatchlings too, then the adult Yellow Rat will later look NOTHING like the adult Black Rat to the north and northwest of it's range.


~Doug

 

[TandJ]

Heck, everyone is so awesome at ID pure corn and hybrids..

I call bluff' because the variation in corns can be vast, small heads, slender sleek heads to large broad heads.. Yeah, there are some markers indicating hybrids, and some times there is not.. Intergrades I don't believe happen as often as people like to think, I don't have any evidence, but the natural species knows what it is and isn't.. I'm not going to argue my point and my thoughts, as I rarely ever come here..

 

[chris68]

.. I'm not going to argue my point and my thoughts, as I rarely ever come here..

I don't see any point to your post worth arguing over :shrugs:

 

[Nanci]

I agree with Tim. Gartersnake x Cornsnake = Tessera. Obviously. Oviviparous is dominant over viviparous. Don't _make_ me go back and see if I spelled that right!!

 

[SickPyth7]

I agree with Tim. Gartersnake x Cornsnake = Tessera. Obviously. Oviviparous is dominant over viviparous. Don't _make_ me go back and see if I spelled that right!!

1st: let me add to this Gartersnake theory .....Correct me is I'm wrong but...Those who lay eggs and those who give live birth have yet to co-exist as a hybrid in any species. LOL :headbang: I hope I'm not making myself look like a total idiot.



2ND: To the rest of these Tessera threads that discredit the morph....IT IS NOT A HYBRID! It is inevitable that cornsnakes would once find there way into a dominant/codominant mutation. It has happened in so many other snakes why are cornsnakes forsakened from it?

 

[Nanci]

You know I was kidding, right?

 

[SickPyth7]

You know I was kidding, right?

Of course.....of course.....just havin some fun thats all

 

[Kokopelli]

Having been a member of several forums and species related communities, I have to say that the Cornsnake community, by far, seems to be the most eager to shout "hybrid".

I guess there are reasons for that... with Colubrids being so prolific and many looking similar'ish… it’s more of a common practice.
Now look… I think that people should put in perspective the whole matter- most, if not all, are –not- breeding locality-restricted animals. You combine morphs from several localities and origins, usually to the point where they are really unlikely to survive in the wild.

In addition, these are all colubrids- there’s a considerable genetic similarity here, and it is not unlikely that different species of the same genus will develop similar looking patterns.

So… I tend to believe that people who work with many morphs end up producing animals that are quite alien to their wildlife ancestors- Cornsnakes aren’t as nearly maintained as Boas or GTP’s when it comes to locality.
I’m not saying that purity has no importance… but I think there’s a bit of exaggeration as to how strict and how keen people are to raise the “hybrid” flag.

Even -if- this -is- a hybrid... they are fertile, the snakes look -exactly- like cornsnakes... and there's no danger of finding a snow tessera out there so it's not for conservation issues.

 

[DMong]

Having been a member of several forums and species related communities, I have to say that the Cornsnake community, by far, seems to be the most eager to shout "hybrid".

Well, not really. I guess you don't get over to the "Lampropeltis" arena very much, especially with the common kingsnake (getula complex) Not so much with any new alleged specific morphs per se, but there are more man-made crossed abominations in the classifieds than anyone could shake a stick at. I see lots of them every single day, as well as see people post the all too common question on forums...... "hey, what is this?,....any ideas"

I certainly agree that the Tessera corn is just that,....a genuine cornsnake, so this certainly isn't about the Tessera being a hybrid at ALL in my opinion. But there is more undiscernable crossed stuff and misrepresented snakes out there than most people could ever possibly imagine, and I couldn't even BEGIN to list them all that I constantly see.......and I do mean CONSTANTLY see!!!

Sure there is a hardcore locality-specific niche in the boid hobby, but it is also in the king and milk hobby. Rich Z. and I were just talking about this very thing about a week or so ago in great length.

Now all of this won't really effect me and what I have and work with much, because my specific niche involves a smaller group of people that have the exact same views I have and know all about the history's and origins of their animals, as well as having exceptional meristic identification skills as to what make each subspecies unique from one another, but the general hobby as a whole goes by what they are "told" something is, and what is put on the label.

This hobby is most definitely "buyer beware" in my opinion, and it pays to know as much as you can about something before getting involved with it. But this can also take a VERY long time to do, and not everyone has the desire or time to go full-bore into what they are involved in.

Anyway, I could probably write a book, or make a post 100 feet long on all the crosses and bogus misrepresented stuff I have seen and know about over the years, that is all I am saying......some corn related, but FAR more involved other types of snakes actually. The hybrid flag sure as heck isn't only raised oftern in the cornsnake hobby is my only real point.....and it is for good reason,........they are EVERYWHERE!, and more are produced by the countless folds every single breeding year on purpose and also out of pure ignorance. Either way the end result is the same.



~Doug







~Doug

 

[Kokopelli]

@Doug, by point was that in the Cornsnake arena, I have seen more morphs blamed to be the result of them being hybrids than anywhere else. And yes, that includes Kingsnakes from what I saw.
I did not say that there are more Cornsnake hybrids out there though.

Here I would have to adhere to your knowledge about milksnakes but as far as I know, localities are rather well separated Taxonomically- you have Lampropeltis Triangulum Nelsoni, Temporalis, Triagngulum and so forth- they are distinct different sub-species.

In the Boid world, there's -further- separation even though all the animals are from the same sub-species.
The Morelia Viridis sub species includes allot of localities such as Jayapura, Aru, Biak and so forth- and some are insanely zealous about separation that you'd think they were different sub-species.

So... unless there are people who restrict breeding of Pueblan Milksnakes to a single area and are unwilling to breed said Pueblan Milksnake with another Pueblan that simply resides in a different area, than they are not as vehement.
If you say otherwise though and that this phenomena exists, I'll stand corrected.

 

[DMong]

@Doug, by point was that in the Cornsnake arena, I have seen more morphs blamed to be the result of them being hybrids than anywhere else. And yes, that includes Kingsnakes from what I saw.
I did not say that there are more Cornsnake hybrids out there though.

Here I would have to adhere to your knowledge about milksnakes but as far as I know, localities are rather well separated Taxonomically- you have Lampropeltis Triangulum Nelsoni, Temporalis, Triagngulum and so forth- they are distinct different sub-species.

In the Boid world, there's -further- separation even though all the animals are from the same sub-species.
The Morelia Viridis sub species includes allot of localities such as Jayapura, Aru, Biak and so forth- and some are insanely zealous about separation that you'd think they were different sub-species.

So... unless there are people who restrict breeding of Pueblan Milksnakes to a single area and are unwilling to breed said Pueblan Milksnake with another Pueblan that simply resides in a different area, than they are not as vehement.
If you say otherwise though and that this phenomena exists, I'll stand corrected.

Well, Don't get me wrong, I certainly do understand and agree with alot of what you are saying, however, using the Publan milksnake (L.t.campbelli) isn't a very good example because the Pueblan's in this country originated from precious few specimens imported from Mexico decades ago in the early-mid 1980's from the Zapotitlan Basin Puebla, Mexico, etc.... In other words, there isn't a very big genepool of any specific locality to be mixed with other localities, and most people don't have the slightest clue of their animal's origin anyway, with VERY few exceptions. Heck, now days just being sure a Pueblan isn't a freakin man-made cross is saying something special..LOL!. But many other milks, say the North American subspecies like L.t.gentilis, multifasciata, syspila, triangulum, and certain annulata, etc...is a very different story. Certainly not with the very casual hobbyist though, but I know alot of hardcore milk-heads that do just that.....catch and breed very specific locality bloodlines of all sorts of N. American milks. And the same goes for many of the kingsnake species and ssp. as well. But I would certainly agree that this special niche of folks is a much smaller percentage of the overall hobby, that's for darn sure.

Same thing applies with the Latin American milksnake subspecies from central America, there are only a VERY tiny number of any genuine subspecies available at all, and several of them are absolutely non-existent altogether in this country. Dixon's milksnake, Smith's milksnake, Ecuadoran milksnake, and L.t.oligozona are some that are totally unobtainable in this country, and even Europe too, much less there being any locality-specific examples of them here. But I do have a couple of them, and know where to acquire a couple of the other genuine forms, and will be getting some very special locality import central Guatemalan milks(L.t.abnorma) very soon that are absolutely THE most incredible authentic examples in this entire country. There simply aren't any at all now except for this ONE known bloodline. ALL OTHERS are totally bogus and are not even close to being genuine abnorma at all. Even if you google up this subspecies, what you will see are actually very misrepresented bi-colored L.t.polyzona, Honduran crosses, and L.t.stuarti. Many years ago there were some authentic L.t. abnorma though, and I even had some in the early 90's, but they have all but totally vanished very shortly afterwards into the "hobby Hondo" melting pot we now have today. If I were to show you photos of the specimen's I am getting, as well as the others of this particular bloodline, and put the photos side by side with what were historically thought of as "abnorma" over the years, they would look so incredibly different it would be like comparing night to day. Also, out of all the countless hundreds of thousands of so-called Honduran milksnakes in this hobby, there are only two locality-specific bloolines of them in this country, and they are from central and northwestern Nicaragua.

Anyway, I very much do understand and appreciate what you are saying here, there is just no one real answer to something that has so darn many complex facets and contributing causes to the overall issue. :spinner:


cheers, ~Doug

 

[Kokopelli]

If I understand correctly, you're saying that there are certain sub-species that are misrepresented or are very hard to obtain. This, to me, seems different from cases where the same sub-species is being further fragmented into localities(that are not recognized as different sub-species).
I get your point though, and I did not know that there are Milksnake keepers who are so keen on locality as vehemently as those in the Boid world. That’s a neat tidbit of info.