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Daytona 2009
- Thread starter ArpeggioAngel
- Start date
kathylove
Pragmatic & Logical
"...Money on tickets? Well, it is a good cause but it also is supposed to be a fun time. For some reason, I would easily buy 20 tickets for $20 but would probably not buy 4 tickets for $20. Why? I don't know but getting 20 tickets sounds exciting to me. And in the end....if someone spends $5 and gets 5 versus my $20 for 20 OR their 1 ticket for $5 and my 4 for $20, the odds are still the same....that person has a 1 in 4 shot versus me."
Although it is not logical, I think it is often true. So I have to agree that cheaper tickets will probably sell more, although I don't know whether $1, $2, or $3 would be the price point at which it would make a difference. But at $1 vs. $5, I suspect the "take" will be better for the $1.
"...It's still random chance if the first ticket gets own pick. I.e. lucky enough to get the first ticket drawn..."
I also agree that I like that idea the best. We have never had a "sore loser" problem doing it that way at our local herp society raffles. And calling the first winner a grand prize would make it even more acceptable, I think.
However, if nobody wants to do it that way, I would be ok with the "pulling a number to decide which prize you get" method.
If we are still thinking of a donation to a charity, and USARK is not agreeable, I just read in Reptiles that ARAV (herp vets) gives out grants to vets to do herp research. They have a list of past grant projects on their site. (ARAV.org). They can use donations to further grant research projects for herps. However, considering the legislative fire herp keepers are under these days, USARK could really use some help. Just something to consider.
Although it is not logical, I think it is often true. So I have to agree that cheaper tickets will probably sell more, although I don't know whether $1, $2, or $3 would be the price point at which it would make a difference. But at $1 vs. $5, I suspect the "take" will be better for the $1.
"...It's still random chance if the first ticket gets own pick. I.e. lucky enough to get the first ticket drawn..."
I also agree that I like that idea the best. We have never had a "sore loser" problem doing it that way at our local herp society raffles. And calling the first winner a grand prize would make it even more acceptable, I think.
However, if nobody wants to do it that way, I would be ok with the "pulling a number to decide which prize you get" method.
If we are still thinking of a donation to a charity, and USARK is not agreeable, I just read in Reptiles that ARAV (herp vets) gives out grants to vets to do herp research. They have a list of past grant projects on their site. (ARAV.org). They can use donations to further grant research projects for herps. However, considering the legislative fire herp keepers are under these days, USARK could really use some help. Just something to consider.
ArpeggioAngel
Around Here Somewhere....
Ok, so we will go with the lower price for raffle tickets since that seems to be the majority concensus.
I certainly hope we still raise decent funds for the charity this way. I am just afraid that if tickets are cheap - people will spend $5 to get five tickets instead of spending $20 to get five tickets and that is a loss to our charity.
In regards to the raffle itself...and this is just me talking out loud here - but what I foresee is that for example (just pulling morphs out of my hat here),.....what if there is a pair of lavender motleys and pair of plain old amels with no hets. Which one do you think MOST people would want? The lavender motleys more than likely....so once those are gone - the next person picked...what are they "left" with? That is why I personally still like the idea of the prize to be random - not just the number called. It levels the playing field for everyone involved. Number drawn should not automatically mean best prize on the table in my opinion.
I have spoken to a few people who haven't been participating in this thread, as well as people outside the cornsnake community to get additional feedback. When presented with both options, more of them lean towards the "random chance" as that makes it the most fair for the most people.
I do understand wanting to make sure you win a prize that you WANT or NEED, but that isn't the idea of a raffle necessarily...it is just the idea to WIN. Most people are happy just winning SOMETHING. It is human nature to be happy when we win, even if it isn't exactly what we wanted or needed.
Do we need more donations? I have emailed KJUN to see if he would be willing to donate.
AND BONUS!!! I talked to Mice Direct today because Joe had received an email from them last night. We have bought mice from them for a long time with no issues. Anyways, on a whim, I contacted them and they are going to donate a $100 gift certificate for our raffle as well!!!!
Kathy - I have been leaning towards USArk myself. What does everyone else think? The only other major charity I remember being suggested was PIJAC.
I certainly hope we still raise decent funds for the charity this way. I am just afraid that if tickets are cheap - people will spend $5 to get five tickets instead of spending $20 to get five tickets and that is a loss to our charity.
In regards to the raffle itself...and this is just me talking out loud here - but what I foresee is that for example (just pulling morphs out of my hat here),.....what if there is a pair of lavender motleys and pair of plain old amels with no hets. Which one do you think MOST people would want? The lavender motleys more than likely....so once those are gone - the next person picked...what are they "left" with? That is why I personally still like the idea of the prize to be random - not just the number called. It levels the playing field for everyone involved. Number drawn should not automatically mean best prize on the table in my opinion.
I have spoken to a few people who haven't been participating in this thread, as well as people outside the cornsnake community to get additional feedback. When presented with both options, more of them lean towards the "random chance" as that makes it the most fair for the most people.
I do understand wanting to make sure you win a prize that you WANT or NEED, but that isn't the idea of a raffle necessarily...it is just the idea to WIN. Most people are happy just winning SOMETHING. It is human nature to be happy when we win, even if it isn't exactly what we wanted or needed.
Do we need more donations? I have emailed KJUN to see if he would be willing to donate.
AND BONUS!!! I talked to Mice Direct today because Joe had received an email from them last night. We have bought mice from them for a long time with no issues. Anyways, on a whim, I contacted them and they are going to donate a $100 gift certificate for our raffle as well!!!!
Kathy - I have been leaning towards USArk myself. What does everyone else think? The only other major charity I remember being suggested was PIJAC.
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ArpeggioAngel
Around Here Somewhere....
Here is another thing to consider that just dawned on me...
If we are planning on starting the raffle in advance so that people who cannot make it to Daytona - how would that affect the "pick your own prize"? They won't be there to pick one.... Originally I had thought we would let people buy their raffle tickets ahead of time online if they couldn't make it and with the drawings for prizes we would just have someone designated to draw for them. I want to be able to have as many people involved in this as possible...again, for their enjoyment as well as raising funds for our charity.
Do we want to just run a separate raffle in advance for people who cannot make it? How would we make it ONLY for those not attending Daytona? How would we even know? I will wait for Carol to reply - but we were discussing something along those lines last night.
If we are planning on starting the raffle in advance so that people who cannot make it to Daytona - how would that affect the "pick your own prize"? They won't be there to pick one.... Originally I had thought we would let people buy their raffle tickets ahead of time online if they couldn't make it and with the drawings for prizes we would just have someone designated to draw for them. I want to be able to have as many people involved in this as possible...again, for their enjoyment as well as raising funds for our charity.
Do we want to just run a separate raffle in advance for people who cannot make it? How would we make it ONLY for those not attending Daytona? How would we even know? I will wait for Carol to reply - but we were discussing something along those lines last night.
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cathiasplace
New member
At the knitting gathering last year, for the door prizes, it was random. They pretty much just held up a prize and said "This goes to..." and pulled a number out of a bucket.
kathylove
Pragmatic & Logical
Actually, that is an interesting idea!
If you held up the smallest prize for that bucket first, and "said this goes to..." (pick #), then the winner could take the prize, or throw their # back in the bucket to try again for what they really want. If they can only win once per bucket, you might have to draw several times before somebody accepts the smaller prize.
OR - you could start with holding up the most expensive prize first, and say "this goes to..." (pick #), and it will be more likely that each person will accept the prize on the first draw. But of course, the suspense will be gone when you get to the smaller items.
But I like the idea in general, because if you decline, you still get a shot at something else. And the more tickets you put in, the higher your chance to get drawn again if you decline.
If you held up the smallest prize for that bucket first, and "said this goes to..." (pick #), then the winner could take the prize, or throw their # back in the bucket to try again for what they really want. If they can only win once per bucket, you might have to draw several times before somebody accepts the smaller prize.
OR - you could start with holding up the most expensive prize first, and say "this goes to..." (pick #), and it will be more likely that each person will accept the prize on the first draw. But of course, the suspense will be gone when you get to the smaller items.
But I like the idea in general, because if you decline, you still get a shot at something else. And the more tickets you put in, the higher your chance to get drawn again if you decline.
ArpeggioAngel
Around Here Somewhere....
Exactly...except I don't know if we are going to have door prizes or how many. Pretty much everything was going into the raffle....
And I think if we make it completely random chance - meaning, we pull a ticket for a winner - and then have the winner pull a ticket for which prize they won - that would be the most "fair" way to run this. Then no one has any room to complain about what they won or didn't win because of our "intereference" or because someone else got to pick the "best" prizes first.
RobbiesCornField
Bring it on.
I definitely agree with this method the most.
Tim66/corns
I have no Accent
Thank you Katie for putting so much of your time into this event. I'm sure it is well appreciated by all. THANK YOU!
ArpeggioAngel
Around Here Somewhere....
Thanks Tim. I appreciate your kind words as well as everyone else who has posted here or that I have spoken to privately. But it isn't just me...this is a group effort. We all deserve kudos for working so hard to put this all together.
I just want it to be the best year ever so that everyone wants to come back next year and more people will want to join after hearing what a fabulous time we all had.
Tim66/corns
I have no Accent
I've got a Costco Card!
Still thinking... Maybe we should just throw in the towel and let every one participate??? It would bring in more $$. Be back in a few hours. I've been at work all day and there is not "thinking time" there.
OK Katie, I reread my PM to you and I might be on crack. It's very poorly written.
I keep thinking about it and I just don't see a way or a reason to exclude attenders from participating in my advance raffle. I kind of slept on it and I think we are worrying too much. I know more than anyone that NOT going to Daytona sucks and I'd love to include people who can't make it but I don't think its necessary to do something that's "only" for them, especially since the goal is to raise money for a good cause.
Yes, I'd like to offer a special raffle to people who reserve their dinners early, and yes only people who are attending will benifit from that, but there are going to be a lot of other benefits to "being there" that we can't equal out.
I think I am going to offer a raffle that is open to everyone to get the most money for the charity and paying for a few extra dinners. I don't think anyone is going to think that is unfair, but if I am wrong please respond here and let me know.
I know we also talked about the two raffles having "equal" prizes but now I'm thinking the cash raffle prize should be of more value than the raffle where you get a "free" ticket just for cooperating.
I keep thinking about it and I just don't see a way or a reason to exclude attenders from participating in my advance raffle. I kind of slept on it and I think we are worrying too much. I know more than anyone that NOT going to Daytona sucks and I'd love to include people who can't make it but I don't think its necessary to do something that's "only" for them, especially since the goal is to raise money for a good cause.
Yes, I'd like to offer a special raffle to people who reserve their dinners early, and yes only people who are attending will benifit from that, but there are going to be a lot of other benefits to "being there" that we can't equal out.
I think I am going to offer a raffle that is open to everyone to get the most money for the charity and paying for a few extra dinners. I don't think anyone is going to think that is unfair, but if I am wrong please respond here and let me know.
I know we also talked about the two raffles having "equal" prizes but now I'm thinking the cash raffle prize should be of more value than the raffle where you get a "free" ticket just for cooperating.
El Jefe
Mark 16:18
I don't understand why this would be the most "fair" way.
How is getting something I may not want fair?
Whether someone picks the best prizes first or you are assigned the best prize you are still the lucky one who either got the first ticket drawn or you drew the best prize ticket. Either way the best prize can be taken without you having a chance if you are not a lucky picker. The problem I have with drawing your prize is you can easily get something you don't want. With picking your own prize you are going to pick something you want or not at all.
For the sake of a discussion, lets say there are ten donated snakes. I am interested in three of them. If we are doing pick your own and my ticket is the first drawn, I will get to pick one of the three that I want. If I am the second or third drawn, I still get a shot at one of my wish list animals as there is no way for them to be gone. Even if I am seventh, I may still have a chance at one of my wish list animals because they may not be the same ones the first six pickers may of wanted. HOWEVER, if I am assigned a prize and even if I'm lucky enough to be the first ticket picked, there is only a 30% shot that I'll get one of my three wish list animals. If I am the seventh person picked, the first six could have picked my snake by random chance and if they haven't, I'm still not guaranteed I'll get it.
It seems to me, picking what you want is actually more "fair" than being assigned a prize you may not want. By picking you get to choose and not everyone's choices are going to be the same. For example, since I am mainly focusing on lava and sunkissed projects, hypo A and ultra stuff has little interest to me. Even though there might be some killer animal with those genes that many would consider the best, I would probably pass on it as it has no place in my collection. I'm sure others feel the same way about their projects...lavender, stripe, motley, caramel, blood, etc. By picking you can actually choose which is the "best" for you and that might not be the actual "best" in the group.
Cflaguy
Old School Snakeman
I see Jeff's point......
Why not have different tickets for different prizes? In other words, if there is a donated reptile prize that is more $$$$ than another, have people buy a blue ticket at a higher price.
Before I get vague on you good people.....
Let's just say-
A Giant Toroise is donated. A plain ole Corn is donated. If someone wants a shot at the tortoise buy a blue ticket for $50. If someone wants the corn, a red ticket for $10.
Maybe even have corns lumped into a raffle, kings into another, lizards and turtles if offered, boas in another.
We still have some time here. If we can get a list of donations this might be an alternative.:shrugs:
Why not have different tickets for different prizes? In other words, if there is a donated reptile prize that is more $$$$ than another, have people buy a blue ticket at a higher price.
Before I get vague on you good people.....
Let's just say-
A Giant Toroise is donated. A plain ole Corn is donated. If someone wants a shot at the tortoise buy a blue ticket for $50. If someone wants the corn, a red ticket for $10.
Maybe even have corns lumped into a raffle, kings into another, lizards and turtles if offered, boas in another.
We still have some time here. If we can get a list of donations this might be an alternative.:shrugs:
RobbiesCornField
Bring it on.
Jeff, I can definitely see what you're saying. HOWEVER, a completely random chance is more fair to everyone in the drawing. And remember: IF YOU DO WIN, YOU CAN DO WHATEVER YOU WANT WITH THE PRIZE. You can even trade it for one of the snakes you wanted! Or you could sell it!
I would think that people on the forum would just be happy they won something. I can understand how the bigger breeders might not want to keep a prize that doesn't fit in with their projects. But to be completely fair to everyone attending, I think that the random chance is the best idea. That way, no one can complain about what they were "assigned" by whomever's running the raffle, and they can't complain that someone got to pick before them.
If you don't like the prize you pick, you've got 3 options:
1) Trade it.
2) Sell it.
3) Politely decline, and hope you get drawn again.
I would think that people on the forum would just be happy they won something. I can understand how the bigger breeders might not want to keep a prize that doesn't fit in with their projects. But to be completely fair to everyone attending, I think that the random chance is the best idea. That way, no one can complain about what they were "assigned" by whomever's running the raffle, and they can't complain that someone got to pick before them.
If you don't like the prize you pick, you've got 3 options:
1) Trade it.
2) Sell it.
3) Politely decline, and hope you get drawn again.
Oh Katie. This is all tough! I just want you to know I will support you in anything you decide but as long as it's open for discussion, here are more of my thoughts. 
So if there were a separate bucket for each prize, would anyone change thier mind about the $1 ticket? If each prize has it's own bucket and chance to win shouldn't a less expensive prize get a less expensive ticket? Thinking out loud...
I know Robbie said it's discriminitory, but raffles just are. What's the difference between someone being able to afford more $5 tickets than somene being able to afford more $1 tickets? If I have $20 more than you I will either get 4 more chances to win at a $5 ticket or 20 more chances to win than you with a $1 ticket.
One other thought about less expensive prizes... I've been to a few charity auctions and a few Ducks Unlimited dinners. A lot of the time the less expensive stuff gets grouped together to make a bigger prize. For example at most DU's prizes have thier own bucket, our company will donate a round of Sporting Clays, someone else will donate some shotgun ammo, another person some shooting glasses. Instead of having a bucket for each prize they will lump all three together as a nice little shooting package. One time they had so many people donate bottles of wine they had this lovely packages of a dozen bottles. Then again raffle tickets are the same amount of money for all prizes at those dinners as well....
So if there were a separate bucket for each prize, would anyone change thier mind about the $1 ticket? If each prize has it's own bucket and chance to win shouldn't a less expensive prize get a less expensive ticket? Thinking out loud...
I know Robbie said it's discriminitory, but raffles just are. What's the difference between someone being able to afford more $5 tickets than somene being able to afford more $1 tickets? If I have $20 more than you I will either get 4 more chances to win at a $5 ticket or 20 more chances to win than you with a $1 ticket.
One other thought about less expensive prizes... I've been to a few charity auctions and a few Ducks Unlimited dinners. A lot of the time the less expensive stuff gets grouped together to make a bigger prize. For example at most DU's prizes have thier own bucket, our company will donate a round of Sporting Clays, someone else will donate some shotgun ammo, another person some shooting glasses. Instead of having a bucket for each prize they will lump all three together as a nice little shooting package. One time they had so many people donate bottles of wine they had this lovely packages of a dozen bottles. Then again raffle tickets are the same amount of money for all prizes at those dinners as well....
RobbiesCornField
Bring it on.
Actually, if all the buckets are going to be separate, I wouldn't have any issues with a $1 ticket, and the clumping/grouping idea would work well.
ArpeggioAngel
Around Here Somewhere....
I had a hard time falling asleep last night because I kept running over all the scenarios in my head again...
I agree with what Robbie posted and that is kind of where I am going with the whole random chance for the prizes. No, not all the prizes are going to be of equal value or fit everyone's breeding plans. But in general - people are happy to win - regardless if it is exactly what they wanted or not. I just cannot see how people are going to complain about winning - even if it wasn't exactly what they wanted or needed. And there are options open to them if they really do not want the prize they won.
Maybe I am just trying to simplify things too much - but the exact definition of a raffle is:
"a form of lottery in which a number of persons buy one or more chances to win a prize."
To win A prize - not to necessarily win the prize of your choice...it is the chance to win that makes a raffle fun. And IMHO most people will be happy with just that.
I do see your point Jeff - I honestly do. To an extent, I personally feel the same way. There are certain morphs or snakes that I don't particularly like or need for my projects. But I would be happy just to win anything. Again, that is the base idea of a raffle or lottery even - just to win. You don't get to choose your prize when you win the lottery either. You get whatever your ticket says you get....you can't say - but I wanted the $5million dollar prize, not the $50 prize.
And I do understand that not everyone has the same plans or needs for snakes so one person's trash might be another persons treasure. But that doesn't eliminate the fact either that more people may want one specific snake available for the raffle vs. others - which leads to the pick a prize being "unfair". Anyone who wanted that same prize is then SOL since what they wanted is already gone. At least by randoming picking a ticket for which prize you actually win leaves who wins what open to everyone with no discrimination. Picking a prize also makes it unfair for those people not at Daytona who buy a raffle ticket in advance through the forum. I still want to do that to give people who can't make it a chance to win as well - and to raise more money for our charity.
The more I think about it and since so many people do seem so adamant that picking your own prize is the only way to be fair - maybe we would just be better off doing separate raffles for each prize and that way people can just enter the raffles they are interested in. We will just need to make sure we have a list of what is available in advance so that people who buy tickets online can let me know which bucket they want their ticket(s) in. It may be a little bit more work - but the more I think about it - the more I think this will make the most people happy. IIRC I think the only reason I was hesitant about this option before was the possible lower sales of tickets...but if we sell tickets in advance too - I think we will be ok. I was also concerned that maybe some buckets would have no entries (I really don't see that happening - but it is a possibility). Or someone walks in and sees no tickets in one particular bucket - so instead of buying $5 or $10 worth for a chance to win - they only buy 1 to put in the bucket with no tickets.
What do you guys think? And if we do it this way - should we go so far as to have different ticket prices based on the value of the prizes? Or still stay with just $1 a ticket? Maybe we could even incorporate Carol's idea about grouping some prizes together. For example - I want to donate snakes, but I am not hatching anything "fancy" this year. Instead of being a single snake from me, I could donate a pair of Miami's. Another bucket maybe would be a hypo lav stripe (just reaching for a morph for an example). Another bucket could be a collection of hides...
We are going to need a lot of buckets! LOL!!!
I agree with what Robbie posted and that is kind of where I am going with the whole random chance for the prizes. No, not all the prizes are going to be of equal value or fit everyone's breeding plans. But in general - people are happy to win - regardless if it is exactly what they wanted or not. I just cannot see how people are going to complain about winning - even if it wasn't exactly what they wanted or needed. And there are options open to them if they really do not want the prize they won.
Because it is a raffle - it is just about winning - not about winning specifically want you want. If you want to get only what you want - then go out and buy it (that sounds more harsh than I mean it to, but I don't know how else to explain what I am trying to get across...hope no offense taken Jeff).
Maybe I am just trying to simplify things too much - but the exact definition of a raffle is:
"a form of lottery in which a number of persons buy one or more chances to win a prize."
To win A prize - not to necessarily win the prize of your choice...it is the chance to win that makes a raffle fun. And IMHO most people will be happy with just that.
I do see your point Jeff - I honestly do. To an extent, I personally feel the same way. There are certain morphs or snakes that I don't particularly like or need for my projects. But I would be happy just to win anything. Again, that is the base idea of a raffle or lottery even - just to win. You don't get to choose your prize when you win the lottery either. You get whatever your ticket says you get....you can't say - but I wanted the $5million dollar prize, not the $50 prize.
And I do understand that not everyone has the same plans or needs for snakes so one person's trash might be another persons treasure. But that doesn't eliminate the fact either that more people may want one specific snake available for the raffle vs. others - which leads to the pick a prize being "unfair". Anyone who wanted that same prize is then SOL since what they wanted is already gone. At least by randoming picking a ticket for which prize you actually win leaves who wins what open to everyone with no discrimination. Picking a prize also makes it unfair for those people not at Daytona who buy a raffle ticket in advance through the forum. I still want to do that to give people who can't make it a chance to win as well - and to raise more money for our charity.
The more I think about it and since so many people do seem so adamant that picking your own prize is the only way to be fair - maybe we would just be better off doing separate raffles for each prize and that way people can just enter the raffles they are interested in. We will just need to make sure we have a list of what is available in advance so that people who buy tickets online can let me know which bucket they want their ticket(s) in. It may be a little bit more work - but the more I think about it - the more I think this will make the most people happy. IIRC I think the only reason I was hesitant about this option before was the possible lower sales of tickets...but if we sell tickets in advance too - I think we will be ok. I was also concerned that maybe some buckets would have no entries (I really don't see that happening - but it is a possibility). Or someone walks in and sees no tickets in one particular bucket - so instead of buying $5 or $10 worth for a chance to win - they only buy 1 to put in the bucket with no tickets.
What do you guys think? And if we do it this way - should we go so far as to have different ticket prices based on the value of the prizes? Or still stay with just $1 a ticket? Maybe we could even incorporate Carol's idea about grouping some prizes together. For example - I want to donate snakes, but I am not hatching anything "fancy" this year. Instead of being a single snake from me, I could donate a pair of Miami's. Another bucket maybe would be a hypo lav stripe (just reaching for a morph for an example). Another bucket could be a collection of hides...
We are going to need a lot of buckets! LOL!!!