His first live one!

[7legion77]

if that is how you value the life of an animal, any animal, no matter the species, then you have no business keeping them as pets.

Instead of swearing, like I'm tempted to do right now, I'll use an emoticon to express myself:
uzi:

But really, do you realize how judgmental and insulting that is? Aaaahhh the hate, it burrrrrns!

I am ready to be banned. :toiletgra

 

[7legion77]

On a less emotional note, the risk is a lot more minimal than you think.
If you want to keep going with horrible analogies, (I thought I told you guys to refrain from that horrible dog analogy) its like saying "if you're taking your kid in your car on the freeway you are endangering your kid because you could get in an accident no matter how well you drive".

Risk is a part of life. If one day my snake suffers a bad injury, then I guess I was wrong all along. But at this point I don't want to spend any time on this forum with these haters at all, yet I can't help but defend my opinion, so I'd like to be banned so I stop wasting my time here.
Fair 'nuff?

 

[Shiari]

Nope, it's more like "If you're taking your kid in your car and not seat-belting him in you are endangering your kid because you could get in an accident no matter how well you drive."

 

[Iguanagirl8662]

Goodness gracious, I thought this thread had ended and I see this nonsense is still going on.

The reason this debate keeps plaguing this forums is because more than anyone, I have to point out Bethany for leading the charge with the over-the-top judgements and personal attacks. And she does this relentlessly yet always says the same thing. With all due respect, we know what you think Bethany, so STOP harassing people already! Why are you and your cohorts trying to put such stranglehold on this forum? I'm only looking for a place to share my passion for corn snakes with but the biggest site www.cornsnakes.com is being ruined whenever this vital topic comes up.

How about making a separate forum for live feeders? So we can discuss this rationally, and all the bleeding hearts can respectfully stay out of the conversation, for everyone's good.

Bethany, again I respect you and think you're probably quite a compassionate person, but you have failed to convince anyone because you're so disparaging. You are omnipresent in these threads and jump to personal attacks at EVERY live feeder, and as a result we just get peeved and are LESS likely to switch to F/T. Maybe try a different strategy? Respect internet anonymity.

You are quite wrong in saying that Beth has never convinced anyone to switch from live feeding. When I first joined this forum I agrued with her about feeding live because I thought I knew better, it was more "natural" and nothing had happened to them in the 5 yrs that feed on live. I swore that the way I feed my 2 corns was right for them and that everyone should respect my choice. Well it wasn't till everything she warned me about started happening that I finallly realized she was right and took her advice. I also later apologized to her for my stupidity. I honestly think my corns prefer the F/T over the live they used to get anyway because they don't have to waste energy or time hunting it, then struggling with it till it dies then eating it, with F/T then can just start chowing down right away which is great for them lol.

Please don't sound so immature. We want to discuss what we do free of abuse. Why are you getting so worked up over what we do with OUR snakes? That's our business, so either speak to us respectfully or leave us alone. Sorry, but we're not gonna change.

You may change, never say never. I changed and I swore I wouldn't. The reason people get so worked up about the issue is because they are extremely passionate about these animals and they have seen it so many threads about live feeding or injuries resulting from live feeding, in which the people are normally to stubborn to listen to reason. I was one of those people before I came to my senses so I speak from experience. Feeding live puts your snake at risk which is avoidable. Yes your snake may never have an issue but there is a chance that it could get hurt. So why take that chance with your animal and why put the food item through more pain and suffering when it is more humane to kill it quick and as painless as possible. I would want to avoid any risk to any of my animals at all cost. If I can keep them from getting hurt then that is the best option. I also don't want my snakes food to have to suffer so if they can be killed more humanely then that to me is the way to go.

So the pros of F/T for me-
No risk to my snakes
Cheaper
If my snake doesn't eat I'm not stuck with a live rodent

Cons-
I have to hear my aunt complain about rodents in the freezer when she visits lol

Pros for feeding live-
None... unless you like seeing an animal suffer and your snake possibly being bitten

Cons-
Risk of injury
Risk of parasites and alot of feeder rodents are covered in mites and lice.
Getting stuck with a rodent if the snake doesn't eat
More expensive
Oh and I have had feeder rodents escape in my car and at home

 

[7legion77]

I was dreading reading yet another reply to this thread, since everything I say is now automatically wrong.

But thanks for that Iguana, that is such a more respectable reply and makes me feel a little better, although I'm still wanting to delete myself from this place.

Its probably obvious that I sadly, often post drunk, so I'm sorry to anyone whom I've offended.

But I'm sticking with live for now. When I put a live mouse in my vastly decorated vivarium, it is so fascinating watching the mouse's behavior and seeing how it reacts to things. He'll climb around on the branches, explore this and that, and wonder what is going on before the inevitable occurs. It's just an interesting thing to watch and study for me. I'm like that scientist who experiments on mice, and is able to tune out empathy. So god help me?

There is something so beautiful about how a snake subdues a mouse. Just the power and the efficiency of it. Call it morbid, call it wrong, but it's impossible to ignore and doesn't match the sterilized, control freak feeling I get when I cave in to Beth's "advice" and prekill. How is slaughtering a mouse with my own hands humane? Sure its an instant death, but so is a guillotine. I'm the kind of person who accepts suffering as an essential part of life and doesn't try to sweep this terrible fact under the carpet.
There are people who argue that the very concept of keeping a pet, is inhumane. Its a subjective concept. Live vs P/K is not black and white, and I will stand by this opinion eternally.

At this point in time, I do believe that with close supervision, correct prey size and a proper feeding schedule, the risk is comparable to driving on a freeway with a seatbelt on but sadly getting hit by a drunken driver (no pun intended).

Still preferable to keeping legions of dead mice in my freezer (no pun intended).

Good night, and farewell. This is my last post here ever.

 

[possum_minister]

i would encourage you to swear, because you will be outmatched in that arena. i hope you are insulted and offended by my statements. because that was my intention. just like your intention was to stir up controversey on this site. you ignore all the good advice of the good people on this site, you assert your ideas in a way as to make yourself seem childish, and you continue in your terrible snake husbandry completely ignoring the sound information you have recieved here. you are a blight on the snake keeping community. i am not here to coddle you, nor am i here to defend you. you are obviously a child with no respect for the life of any animal. some people here will be polite, im not one of them. i hope they kick you out quicker that we impeached clinton. grow up, or dont come back. done.

 

[7legion77]

i would encourage you to swear, because you will be outmatched in that arena. i hope you are insulted and offended by my statements. because that was my intention. just like your intention was to stir up controversey on this site. you ignore all the good advice of the good people on this site, you assert your ideas in a way as to make yourself seem childish, and you continue in your terrible snake husbandry completely ignoring the sound information you have recieved here. you are a blight on the snake keeping community. i am not here to coddle you, nor am i here to defend you. you are obviously a child with no respect for the life of any animal. some people here will be polite, im not one of them. i hope they kick you out quicker that we impeached clinton. grow up, or dont come back. done.

Wow that is ugly. So ugly that it makes me break my oath for last post ever. Although hopefully this one will be it.

Just...... wow.

 

[7legion77]

I have never encountered such hostility drama and emotion in any kind of internet forum ever, ever! What is going on here folks???

 

[Iguanagirl8662]

I have never encountered such hostility drama and emotion in any kind of internet forum ever, ever! What is going on here folks???

I don't like people who keep posting that they are done and are leaving the forum and never leave, they just keep posting how they are leaving. To me that means you are just looking for drama. If you don't like it here then I say do what you said and leave because the rest of us are not going to change our opinions, just like you said you are not going to change. If you don't like it here why stay? Go find a forum that shares your opinion where you will enjoying being there.

 

[7legion77]

I don't like people who keep posting that they are done and are leaving the forum and never leave, they just keep posting how they are leaving. To me that means you are just looking for drama. If you don't like it here then I say do what you said and leave because the rest of us are not going to change our opinions, just like you said you are not going to change. If you don't like it here why stay? Go find a forum that shares your opinion where you will enjoying being there.

Not looking for drama, its just that my feelings have been hurt constantly ever since I've come here, which why I've reacted the way I have.
But I shouldn't be so sensitive considering the fact that I remain anonymous.

I don't know why I keep replying, I'm trying to get myself banned or deleted so I stop posting here because its lose/lose for both us.

 

[Iguanagirl8662]

Not looking for drama, its just that my feelings have been hurt constantly ever since I've come here, which why I've reacted the way I have.
But I shouldn't be so sensitive considering the fact that I remain anonymous.

I don't know why I keep replying, I'm trying to get myself banned or deleted so I stop posting here because its lose/lose for both us.

All you have to do is stop posting it is as simple as that. No one is making you come on here or post so if you don't want too then don't. If you really want your account deleted then message a mod and ask to be deleted.

 

[7legion77]

I'm sorry for my cruelty to mice and I'm sorry for my alcoholism/trolling/desire to debate.
Perhaps I'm one of the weirdest posters you guys have encountered. Hopefully, as I've requested, my profile will be deleted as will all my worthless posts. And cornsnakes.com will be purged of my existence.

 

[starsevol]

www.cornsnakes.com[/url] is being ruined whenever this vital topic comes up.

How about making a separate forum for live feeders? So we can discuss this rationally, and all the bleeding hearts can respectfully stay out of the conversation, for everyone's good.

Bethany, again I respect you and think you're probably quite a compassionate person, but you have failed to convince anyone because you're so disparaging. You are omnipresent in these threads and jump to personal attacks at EVERY live feeder, and as a result we just get peeved and are LESS likely to switch to F/T. Maybe try a different strategy? Respect internet anonymity.

Mr Itchypants, the last post I made was an apology 4 pages ago. GET OVER IT!!! Glad you want to leave. Don't let the door hit you where the good Lord split you!!

Katie, so glad you are back! I have really missed you!!!

PM, I need to rep that post.

Edited to say, I hope the drunken troll is not a liar as well as as cruel horrible pet owner. I hope he really is gone for good, but I suspect the next time he is drunk he will be back a'trollin'. And something tells me he get drunk often....

 

[Carinata]

Look, I tried to stay out of this thread, but I read the entire thing and wanted to point a few things out. I personally feed F/T to all my snakes except 1. That snake that gets live has held out for live and that's what she gets. I highly recommend that you feed F/T if your snake will take it. It will save you a ton of money and be much more convenient. Live rodents do pose a risk to the animals you feed them to. It is a small risk, if you do it correctly, but the risk is still there.

I have no issue feeding live, to an animal that flat out refuses F/T. I personally think the parasites debate can be debunked by buying your live rodents from a very good supplier. Certain species just are consistent feeders on F/T, and live is just the route you may have to take. One must be extraordinarily diligent when feeding live, to assure nothing goes south.

I think we really need to not jump on people that feed live as much as we do. We're isolating members of a community that is getting raped with legislation. We need to unite people in our community instead of isolating them. When a new member comes here and asks about feeding live, explain it to them without the insults, name calling, etc. If someone told me I got a psycho sexual thrill from feeding live, I would think "That person's an idiot, and I'm not listening to anything they say!". But we all know Beth is very intelligent person, that brings a lot to our community! So let's make these new people to the forum realize it.

Old habits are hard to break. It may take 10 members, 100 posts to explain the dangers of feeding live, but if we remain civil, we can educate, INSTEAD of isolate. There is risk in everything we do, and there is risk in using a thermostat for your rack. If it fails, you fry your animals. Live feeding is potentially dangerous, but if we expect to convince people to feed F/T, we need to approach it nicely.

Some of these people probably heard that feeding live is OK, from someone they respect. There are plenty of pet stores that know what they're doing. Ben Siegel, Snakes at Sunset, Exotic Pets LV, etc. All are respected members of our community. I mean, a bunch of names on the internet isn't as convincing as talking to someone face to face. So can we please remember that when we're dealing with people who we're trying to convince.

 

[ShenziSixaxis]

This whole thread makes my brain itch.

I don't think I really have anything productive to add about the whole live/FT thing that hasn't been said already.

Carinata pretty much said what I had thought of while skimming the thread. Except for the brain itching.

 

[Wyldrose]

Maybe next time a live vs f/t thread comes up maybe we should just link the 20-30 other posts about live vs f/t...

 

[AliCat37]

I'm confused Legion.
You don't like prekilling, so buy frozen.
You don't like mice in the freezer? Do you eat meat???? Because it's really no different at all than having random body parts of a pig, or cow, or chicken in there. You can always get a separate freezer.. they only cost around $60.

 

[starsevol]

Its probably obvious that I sadly, often post drunk, so I'm sorry to anyone whom I've offended.

But I'm sticking with live for now. When I put a live mouse in my vastly decorated vivarium, it is so fascinating watching the mouse's behavior and seeing how it reacts to things. He'll climb around on the branches, explore this and that, and wonder what is going on before the inevitable occurs. It's just an interesting thing to watch and study for me. I'm like that scientist who experiments on mice, and is able to tune out empathy. So god help me?

There is something so beautiful about how a snake subdues a mouse. Just the power and the efficiency of it. Call it morbid, call it wrong, but it's impossible to ignore and doesn't match the sterilized, control freak feeling I get when I cave in to Beth's "advice" and prekill. How is slaughtering a mouse with my own hands humane? Sure its an instant death, but so is a guillotine. I'm the kind of person who accepts suffering as an essential part of life and doesn't try to sweep this terrible fact under the carpet.
There are people who argue that the very concept of keeping a pet, is inhumane. Its a subjective concept. Live vs P/K is not black and white, and I will stand by this opinion eternally.

Good night, and farewell. This is my last post here ever.

Ali, THIS is why he does it. The thrill means more than his "pet".

 

[Carinata]

I can understand enjoying the kill. You have a fascination with these animals. We want to understand how they hunt, breed, live etc. When feeding a snake a dead mouse, in a plastic box, we're not seeing their instincts at work. I mean I can afford to buy meat at the grocery store, but I hunt. It's more expensive for a day of hunting than it is for meat at the store. Hell my bullets are $2 a piece! I do it because I enjoy outsmarting the animal, I enjoy watching them in their natural environment. Of course I do believe in the one shot, one kill principal.

So I understand why Legion likes watching his snake hunt. It's not like he gets off watching it. I'm not advocating feeding live to an animal that's easily taking F/T. I just understand the desire to watch an animal that you greatly admire, hunt.

 

[starsevol]

I can understand enjoying the kill. You have a fascination with these animals. We want to understand how they hunt, breed, live etc. When feeding a snake a dead mouse, in a plastic box, we're not seeing their instincts at work. I mean I can afford to buy meat at the grocery store, but I hunt. It's more expensive for a day of hunting than it is for meat at the store. Hell my bullets are $2 a piece! I do it because I enjoy outsmarting the animal, I enjoy watching them in their natural environment. Of course I do believe in the one shot, one kill principal.

So I understand why Legion likes watching his snake hunt. It's not like he gets off watching it. I'm not advocating feeding live to an animal that's easily taking F/T. I just understand the desire to watch an animal that you greatly admire, hunt.

There is a HUGE difference between a hunt and a canned hunt.
And putting your pet at risk so you can get your jollies is disgusting.