How do you feel about God.

[SnakeAround]

No, but so far it did not hurt me either to not believe there is a God, so why would I?

 

[Rich Z]

No, but so far it did not hurt me either to not believe there is a God, so why would I?

That is not the point. Even if there is not a God, there is a purpose behind the believing that their might be. This same reasoning is behind laws and the penalties threatened if they are violated. Fact of the matter is, it's a rather sad state of affairs to contemplate WHY humanity would need to believe in a God, and WHY laws are necessary for a society of humans to function. Do you believe that any criminals TRULY believe in God?

And even scarier is the thought that if in fact man was made in God's image, then what would that tell you about God? How many people, even yourself, as images of God, can you think of that you would feel comfortable being granted the powers of God?

I think there are an equal number of reasons to hope that there IS a God as well as hope that there ISN'T if you think deeply enough about it.

 

[Nova_C]

Rich, as far as I can tell, you're argument is, "There may be a god, so you may as well believe there is." I can't quite wrap my head around that.

I mean, what benefit is there to believing in god? What do I have to gain by just going along with that if that's all there is to it? I mean, are we talking a specific god as set forth by one of the religions? Or just a generic 'higher power'? If the latter, what's the point? If the former, well, there's a LOT of downsides to that.

 

[Rich Z]

Rich, as far as I can tell, you're argument is, "There may be a god, so you may as well believe there is." I can't quite wrap my head around that.

I mean, what benefit is there to believing in god? What do I have to gain by just going along with that if that's all there is to it? I mean, are we talking a specific god as set forth by one of the religions? Or just a generic 'higher power'? If the latter, what's the point? If the former, well, there's a LOT of downsides to that.

Whether or not God exists as an entity is moot as long as you believe that God is really the dividing line that guides you in your choices between good and evil. Yeah, anyone can do evil things and likely not get caught. And certainly there are people who intuitively and unfailingly do the "right" and "good" thing at every opportunity. But I suspect such people are quite rare. Life is filled with countless opportunities to get away with something, be unfair, and often to be downright cruel. These are always choices presented to you, and perhaps the concept of God is what makes people choose one road over another. So in my opinion, God may only be that voice in your head that argues which path to take when they diverge between right and wrong. No matter whether you believe it is YOUR conscious choice to make, there can be subconscious influences that may be highly influenced by the possibility that yes, someone IS watching what you are doing.

Some people will try to cover up this influence by calling it "karma" or whatever, but I believe that even in people who don't believe in God, there is a belief in SOMETHING that will bring them to a "day of reckoning" concerning how they lived their life.

 

[Reptilebaby]

I am a very strict christian, and beleive without a doubt in God. I try to conduct my behavior and business no matter what I am doing in a way that shows what I beleive.

 

[kathylove]

I have always believed in a sort of karmic "you reap what you sow" philosophy. It doesn't work 100% of the time, but in general, it often works out over a person's lifetime.

The results could be simply a product of the way people respond in kind to the treatment they receive from you, or something like "The Force", or God - however you define he / she / it - I don't profess to know WHY it works that way. But I have always felt that trying to live by the "Golden Rule" (Do unto others as you would have them do unto you) will benefit not only society, but yourself as well, whether you believe in God in the traditional sense or not.

So in my opinion, being a "decent" human being has it own selfish rewards. PLUS - you get to feel good about being nice, too, lol!

 

[Nova_C]

These are always choices presented to you, and perhaps the concept of God is what makes people choose one road over another. So in my opinion, God may only be that voice in your head that argues which path to take when they diverge between right and wrong. No matter whether you believe it is YOUR conscious choice to make, there can be subconscious influences that may be highly influenced by the possibility that yes, someone IS watching what you are doing.

The suggestion here is that a believer is more 'moral' than an atheist because of the threat of retribution. I contest this as complete bull. I know that the choices I make in life are because of what I believe to be right and wrong, not because if I make the wrong choice I might burn in hell forever.

In fact, I submit that the aspect of retribution or reward from a god has made humanity less moral, not more. Religious motivation drives people to commit terrible atrocities because it is god's command, the right thing to do, and even if it feels wrong, you'll be rewarded for doing it. Religion subverts someone's natural sense of right and wrong with the promise of eternal reward for doing something that furthers that organization's cause.

 

[Tara80]

The suggestion here is that a believer is more 'moral' than an atheist because of the threat of retribution.

That is not what I got out of it at all. What I got from this statement is that he's saying "for SOME people, this is what keeps them in line... or might be what is keeping them in line". Different strokes for different folks.

Some people run well via empathy. Some need the thought that they are being monitored and evaluated to keep them in line.
Most of us wouldn't go steal cars and resell parts, but it happens every day. Many people out there feel entitled to other people's property or feel that life owes them something. Even though you or I might not think that way.

 

[Tara80]

Religious motivation drives people to commit terrible atrocities because it is god's command, the right thing to do, and even if it feels wrong, you'll be rewarded for doing it.

So do guns, so do knives, so do cars, so do hookers so does just about everything.
This is based on a human's interpretation and greed.
There are evil people out there. Religion is used as a tool by these types of people just like anything else they could use to obtain the end results they want.

 

[SnakeAround]

Whether or not God exists as an entity is moot as long as you believe that God is really the dividing line that guides you in your choices between good and evil. Yeah, anyone can do evil things and likely not get caught. And certainly there are people who intuitively and unfailingly do the "right" and "good" thing at every opportunity. But I suspect such people are quite rare. Life is filled with countless opportunities to get away with something, be unfair, and often to be downright cruel. These are always choices presented to you, and perhaps the concept of God is what makes people choose one road over another. So in my opinion, God may only be that voice in your head that argues which path to take when they diverge between right and wrong. No matter whether you believe it is YOUR conscious choice to make, there can be subconscious influences that may be highly influenced by the possibility that yes, someone IS watching what you are doing.

Some people will try to cover up this influence by calling it "karma" or whatever, but I believe that even in people who don't believe in God, there is a belief in SOMETHING that will bring them to a "day of reckoning" concerning how they lived their life.

Nope, not that I'm conscious of... people around me will let me know how I behave (towards them), directly or indirectly. Further I don't remember occasions as an adult where I did wrong because I thought I could get away with it. Even as a kid I hardly ever did anything that would harm someone or was prohibited to do. Because I myself would know about it.... I'd know that I had broken my promise, that is enough... I have done some typical child stuff like making a small fire or shooting berries with a tube at cars but even than I'd think of doing that in a safe way, as far as my juvenile brain would let me of course. So, no fire in bushes and no shooting at windshields, only at the back of the car. Not to brag about myself, but to let you know that you might be wrong about needing the idea of a day of reckoning, I just don't want to hurt or endanger people from when I was a kid. My mom never told me that I shouldn't make a fire or couldn't shoot berries at cars literally as far as I know, she did after hearing about it though since somehow little old me always got caught in the end for my little misbehaviors :crazy01:

I'm curious if the above might be a female thing since my boyfriend once told me that he is mostly concerned about being caught for misbehavior, even in something like cheating on me, the idea of just not doing it because he promised is not the most important reason for him, if it is at all. The idea somehow I'd got to know about it is. I felt a bit sad/angry about it when he said that but he said it's the male way of thinking and it does have to do with not giving in to a short time pleasure with the risk of hurting or loosing me, which also shows he loves me deeply. I accepted that, in the end the result is the same.

 

[Nova_C]

That is not what I got out of it at all. What I got from this statement is that he's saying "for SOME people, this is what keeps them in line... or might be what is keeping them in line". Different strokes for different folks.

If this were true, then there would still be a trend of religious societies being more moral than atheistic ones. The thing is, this is demonstrably false.

Besides, the other conclusion to draw is that there is a not insignificant number of Christians who would commit terrible atrocities if God wasn't standing over them with a big stick. If true, that's rather frightening.

 

[Nova_C]

So do guns, so do knives, so do cars, so do hookers so does just about everything.
This is based on a human's interpretation and greed.
There are evil people out there. Religion is used as a tool by these types of people just like anything else they could use to obtain the end results they want.

So people become suicide bombers for hookers? Engage in genocide for cars?

The person who gets the ball rolling may be using religion for their own ends, but the people who follow? They are following because they believe that god commanded it, that it's righteous to slaughter these people and enslave these children, that when they get to heaven they will stand on high over the ones they slaughtered and raped and be rewarded.

This way of thinking is dangerous. It makes people feel good about killing a homosexual, or a woman accused of witchcraft, or a muslim, or a communist. Because it is righteous, it is God's good work to kill and main the enemy. And these good feelings only confirm the belief that it is the right thing to do so they do it more. And they go to further extremes in their pursuit of this powerful righteousness.

 

[Nanci]

A friend of mine's husband just confessed he'd been cheating on her and wanted a divorce. After he moved (was thrown) out, leaving her on her own with two VERY young children, he went to have a vasectomy. And found out he has gout! Karma?? Really, I hope karma has more bad things in store for him. It's not balanced out yet.

 

[Shiari]

Do I believe that there are criminals who truly believe in God? Absolutely. Are you trying to tell me ALL those catholic priests don't believe in a deity?

I am an atheist. I do what is right not because some Father figure told me, but because I have no native desire to do harm. I have returned money when I've found out that I've been given too much change, because I don't want the cashier to get in trouble. I've helped people pay for treatments on their pets, knowing full well that they might never pay me back. I "herd" children when I'm around them, because I don't want anyone to experience the devastation of having a child be lost, injured, or kidnapped. I offer food to homeless people who ask me for money.

There's not god making me behave this way. I can think my to good behaviour with ease. "Harm, by definition, is bad. Therefore, harming someone is bad. Therefore not doing harm is good, and helping is better!" No divine reward, no terrible judgement needed.

If someone *needs* a god to tell them that stealing, raping, and cheating is bad, that individual worries me.


I would like to postulate once more:

For all the believers, and more specifically the christians, who do NOT believe that non-believers go to hell:

Where do we go?

Why Christianity? Didn't Jesus say that the only way to God is through him? Doesn't that discount the idea that non-believers get to go to heaven, which leaves only hell?

 

[Nanci]

I don't know the answer to that, Megan. Or, I don't know what I think happens. Maybe nothing? Maybe you get an offer you can't refuse when the time is right? Never really thought about it. Although I have thought about whether animals go to heaven. I don't know the answer to that, either, but I hope they do.

 

[Camby]

Miracles

Ok, I said I was done with this thread when it turned nasty and I haven't read it in a while so I am not sure what is being said or not and I really could care less at this point. HOWEVER, weatehr we believe in God or do not believe in "higher power", I would like to think that no matter how things are or were created, be it evolution, creationalism, aliens, Jesus or whatever, nearly every thing we see, do, interact with, or are a part of in this life can't be labled anything less than a miracle.

I am not suggesting everyone has to believe in a Jesus miracle or anything, just the fact that no matter the source, it is a miracle this world exists as it does from the air we have that we require to whatever.

Sure, I choose to believe God created all things (but allows them to evolve) and maybe you think it happened due to some primortial ooze, but either way there are miracles all around us.

It isn't a baby picture, but he was still little (God I miss those days), but many times I look at my kids and think "What a miracle" they are. See the inserted miracel below. I choose to thank God for these miracles, maybe you don't and that is fine, I have my beliefs and you yours.

I dare someone to make an off hand comment about my kid, whether I am nice or not, you will need God or Gods or at the least, an affore mentioned miracle to save you.

dc

 

[Rich Z]

Do I believe that there are criminals who truly believe in God? Absolutely. Are you trying to tell me ALL those catholic priests don't believe in a deity?

I am an atheist. I do what is right not because some Father figure told me, but because I have no native desire to do harm. I have returned money when I've found out that I've been given too much change, because I don't want the cashier to get in trouble. I've helped people pay for treatments on their pets, knowing full well that they might never pay me back. I "herd" children when I'm around them, because I don't want anyone to experience the devastation of having a child be lost, injured, or kidnapped. I offer food to homeless people who ask me for money.

There's not god making me behave this way. I can think my to good behaviour with ease. "Harm, by definition, is bad. Therefore, harming someone is bad. Therefore not doing harm is good, and helping is better!" No divine reward, no terrible judgement needed.

If someone *needs* a god to tell them that stealing, raping, and cheating is bad, that individual worries me.


I would like to postulate once more:

For all the believers, and more specifically the christians, who do NOT believe that non-believers go to hell:

Where do we go?

Why Christianity? Didn't Jesus say that the only way to God is through him? Doesn't that discount the idea that non-believers get to go to heaven, which leaves only hell?

I think it is entirely plausible for someone to believe in God without believing in, or following, an organized religion to tell them what and how to believe in God.

Quite frankly, I could not consider a God that would be so petty as to punish someone with eternal agony, for simply having doubts about his existence (who doesn't care to provide any such proof in the first place) as being worthy of any sort of worship. In this respect, I believe you are hearing the "word" of religion, and not the "word" of God. The "belief" is directed to how THEY want YOU to believe in God, and again, not subject to being supported by provable facts, but merely their word and "faith".

Fear of God? Really? How would we feel about any human being who ruled his or her pets out of abject fear? And we should respect God for acting in such a manner towards us? Really?

And quite honestly, I believe and anyone who would harm another based on religious beliefs to be the ultimate height of pure folly and ridiculousness. Basically the argument of either side is based all on hearsay, speculation, and opinions, with NOTHING composed of provable facts and hard evidence. You might as well kill someone simply because they believe the moon is made of cheese and you don't.

 

[Tara80]

So people become suicide bombers for hookers? Engage in genocide for cars?

That is not at all, or even close to what I was saying. Bad people will use whatever they have to meet the ends they want to meet. If a guy wants to cheat on his wife using a hooker, he will do so.
There is no arguing that religion can be used as a weapon or skewed for someone's personal pleasure. This does not mean all religious people are bad.

 

[Tara80]

Besides, the other conclusion to draw is that there is a not insignificant number of Christians who would commit terrible atrocities if God wasn't standing over them with a big stick. If true, that's rather frightening.

But, to a degree, it IS true for some people. I'd sure go 100 mph if there were no laws against speeding. Although, it's not a dramatic comparison it's still true and the line in the sand is different depending upon who you are. Just as Snakearound said about her boyfriend. It depends on the person.

 

[iculatr]

Generalizing all "Christians" with EXTREMISTS of any particular religious group is illogical. This overall attitude blows my mind, especially if one considers the diversity of belief systems within Christianity alone.