How do you feel about God.

[Nanci]

Too Long To Read!

. .

 

[tsst]

:shrugs:

 

[captainjack0000]

I do believe that there is no difference between believing in santa, unicorns, or any other mythical being however one may choose to label that being. If I am wrong, explain how you think I am wrong.

You are wrong to compare belief in Santa to the believe in God. The short answer is the social nature implications associated with believing them is different.

For example, if I were a person in the public sphere, I don't know, an auto mechanic for example, in a very religious area of this country and I openly made clear to my customers that I did not believe in God, I suspect my business would falter. If enough of the population held strong enough convictions about God, and word got around, they probably would avoid my auto shop and visit a competitor.

But if I were to be open that I don't believe in Santa or trolls, I'm not sure my business would falter. Indeed, my business may falter if I did advertise that I believe in Santa or trolls.

There are certain social implications when one chooses to be open about their beliefs. Belief in God is socially acceptable. Belief in trolls or pixies are not. Some things it seems like are are on the fence, like the belief in ghosts, spirits, or maybe even bigfoot.

I don't feel like dissecting why there are differences or why certain people believe what they believe, but showing that differences exist should be enough to satisfy the "explain how you think I am wrong" portion of your statement.

Also, while you may be a devout atheist, a dogmatic attitude about there not being a God is no more valid and one saying there is a God. I don't know who first said it, but the saying is something like "You cannot prove a negative." Most atheists I have encountered, if you push them far enough, own up to really being agnostic.

Lastly, I'm not sure science operates in the realm of 'facts'. Facts are too constrictive. Science moves in the more open world of 'evidence'. Some places might define 'evidence' as a collection of facts, so I'll try to be clear here. Facts to me are undisputed bits of information that lend credibility to some idea, theory, notion, observation, phenomenon, etc. Evidence is an outward sign or indication that lends credibility to some idea, theory, notion, observation, phenomenon, etc. To somehow equate science with being undisputed is fallacy.

 

[captainjack0000]

P.S. There might be other differences between the beliefs of God and Santa. I do not believe that I hold all of the cards in this game of life, so I regularly leave open the possibility that there might be things I have not though of. The social aspect is just the first difference that came across my mind.

 

[BloodyBaroness]

I do believe that there is no difference between believing in santa, unicorns, or any other mythical being however one may choose to label that being. If I am wrong, explain how you think I am wrong.

You are wrong.

It's simple human decency. Picking at someone for believing in unicorns in MUCH different than picking at someone's faith.

Religion is on an entirely different level than silly things like Big Foot or Santa.

Having someone say "I'm going to go look for Big Foot this weekend," and telling them there is no such thing, will not get the same emotional response as telling them God is not real.

Sure it will look the same to an insensitive and tactless person, but no one with a shred of human decency should attack a person's faith. You might not agree with what, or how, they worship, but it does not mean it's as trivial as a belief in Santa.

You may worship a blue bottle cap as your immortal savior, you are free to choose that belief. I might think it's a little crazy, but no one should ever say it's not real. Faith is a deeply personal experience, no two people feel the exact same way about it.

As I have said before, believe in whatever gives you hope. It does not matter if it's God, Allah, Buddha, the Flying Spaghetti Monster or nothing, if you are an Atheist.

Just don't put down, persecute, or demean someone who does not believe the EXACT same thing you do. Also, don't make fun of whatever does give someone hope. People who make fun of, or put down people because of their personal beliefs are about as appealing as a skid mark in a fresh pair of tighty whiteys.

 

[Shiari]

So Autumn, are you going to chew out TSST for implying that because I'm an atheist, I'm just like Stalin?

And Tsst- Most of the reason for the 'atheism' in those countries was about control and power. Those leaders wanted ALL the power and religion is quite powerful.

But of course, all those people are nothing compared to the Crusades, the Inquisition, and all the wars fought because of religion.

 

[beautifullywild77]

Wow... just wow!

 

[beautifullywild77]

I do not think Tsst called Atheist names like Carpe. Nor did he pick apart what you do not believe in. He made an example that just like there are bad Christians there are bad Atheist. No side is above or better then other other.

 

[Outcast]

How many people died in China during the genocides? http://voices.yahoo.com/mao-zedong-genocide-one-worst-6911046.html

How many people died during the crusades?
Unfortunately all I can find about this question is that no one really knows, because documentation was horrible and people randomly joined or left as time went on....

This was just trying to point out the flaw in your response, I do not condone what Tsst posted about atheists, because it overgeneralizes. Just like many of the overgeneralized statements in regards to religions and those who believe in them.

But, this conversation is quickly headed into the "you're evil because you worship God, and bad things happened at his command in the bible", direction. Which we have already discussed that little tidbit of "logic", I believe earlier in this thread.

 

[BloodyBaroness]

So Autumn, are you going to chew out TSST for implying that because I'm an atheist, I'm just like Stalin?

And Tsst- Most of the reason for the 'atheism' in those countries was about control and power. Those leaders wanted ALL the power and religion is quite powerful.

But of course, all those people are nothing compared to the Crusades, the Inquisition, and all the wars fought because of religion.

How about you read the context of the last few pages of the thread before you blindly toss out accusations?

Tsst made a comparison, there are good and bad members of all religions, it's the truth. Individual members of any religion can be bad.

I-N-D-I-V-I-D-U-A-L.

I don't see your picture on Tsst's post.

I don't care for any oversimplification or generalization of a religion.

 

[Shiari]

I apologize then. I had little desire to read back further into this rapid thread because it tends to make my blood boil.

 

[BloodyBaroness]

Heavy handed stuff has been tossed out by Carpe Serpentis, most of the last few pages are responses to his drivel. Go read his mess if you want to really get mad.

You have every right to be mad, but look before you leap, it can save a lot of misunderstandings on BOTH sides.

 

[starsevol]

I apologize then. I had little desire to read back further into this rapid thread because it tends to make my blood boil.

Heavy handed stuff has been tossed out by Carpe Serpentis, most of the last few pages are responses to his drivel. Go read his mess if you want to really get mad.

You have every right to be mad, but look before you leap, it can save a lot of misunderstandings on BOTH sides.

I have to agree. Tsst is good people, really good people. And someone I respect a ton and count as a friend. Carpe....notsomuch........

 

[tsst]

I do not think Tsst called Atheist names like Carpe. Nor did he pick apart what you do not believe in. He made an example that just like there are bad Christians there are bad Atheist. No side is above or better then other other.

How about you read the context of the last few pages of the thread before you blindly toss out accusations?

Tsst made a comparison, there are good and bad members of all religions, it's the truth. Individual members of any religion can be bad.

I-N-D-I-V-I-D-U-A-L.

I don't see your picture on Tsst's post.

I don't care for any oversimplification or generalization of a religion.

Nuff said.

Just a hyperbolic point intended to show that it is not just members of a religion that do awful things in the name of something. The pic seemed to exude that point ...

... This was just trying to point out the flaw in your response, I do not condone what Tsst posted about atheists, because it overgeneralizes. Just like many of the overgeneralized statements in regards to religions and those who believe in them.

But, this conversation is quickly headed into the "you're evil because you worship God, and bad things happened at his command in the bible", direction. Which we have already discussed that little tidbit of "logic", I believe earlier in this thread.

Yes it was a bit of overgeneralization for that I apologize.

 

[kathylove]

Yes, I actually liked the poster of "Organized Atheism" because we have already discussed at length (both in this thread and others) about the sometimes terrible results when organized religion goes astray. But it brings some balance to the discussion to show that the results can be just as bad from the opposite end - organized atheism. Individuals (and leaders, too!) of both can be equally good or equally bad. It points out that morals, ethics, good, and evil, exist in both spheres.

Great point - thanks!

 

[Carpe Serpentis]

When a single leader of a religion decides to do horrendous things, those that follow that religion/leader also do horrendous things out of blind faith to that religion/leader. This is why we had so many commit suicide trying to catch a ride on hale bop a few years ago. People will blindly follow the directions of someone they believe has a direct connection to their god.
People do not blindly follow atheists because of some connection we feel that an atheist has to god as we don't have any connection to god. There is a big difference there. Someone can be republican, libertarian, socialist, or communist... and also be an atheist... without god.

As for someone who fully believes in pixies, fairies, medicine animals, little people (yuwipi) spirits, god, or any other mythical being or power.... I see no difference in those things as they are truly believed by those that believe in them. What one culture scoffs at as being ridiculous another culture sees as being true and to them it is true based solely on the blind belief they have. People can do horrendous things in the name of a religion as they believe that leader has a supernatural connection. People do not suicide bomb in the name of atheism as atheism simply means to be without gods. People do however commit suicide in the name of religion, kill others in the name of religion and history is steeped full of these facts. Even simply telling your followers not to use a condom when it can stop the spread of hiv and unwanted pregnancy... when done by a religious leader has more impact than it would if said by someone who's only power was that he believed in no supernatural deities.

 

[captainjack0000]

Carpe...are you familiar with Milgram's experiments or the Stanford prison experiment?

There is a WHOLE lot more going on under dictator rule than your last post suggests.

While it is tempting to draw a straight line between cult (e.g. your Hale Bop group) and religion (e.g. Catholics), I think this approach misses the nuances in either case. There do exist similarities, but there are also a whole lot of differences.

I would love to see a full study of the development of Scientology. This religion we know came into being in the past 100 years, which gives us a unique opportunity.

 

[Outcast]

I would love to see a full study of the development of Scientology. This religion we know came into being in the past 100 years, which gives us a unique opportunity.

That would be very interesting, if you could get past the endless lawsuits that will probably be brought against you. ("you" meaning whoever decides to do the study.)

 

[Carpe Serpentis]

“With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.”
Steven Weinberg

 

[Carpe Serpentis]

Carpe...are you familiar with Milgram's experiments or the Stanford prison experiment?

There is a WHOLE lot more going on under dictator rule than your last post suggests.

While it is tempting to draw a straight line between cult (e.g. your Hale Bop group) and religion (e.g. Catholics), I think this approach misses the nuances in either case. There do exist similarities, but there are also a whole lot of differences.

I would love to see a full study of the development of Scientology. This religion we know came into being in the past 100 years, which gives us a unique opportunity.

Yes, I am indeed familiar with both having studied both in college as well as outside the classroom.