Proposal regarding hybrids / pure corns

[dave partington]

The Berkeley Pages have some fun concepts.
http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evosite/evo101/VADefiningSpecies.shtml

Ring species are species with a geographic distribution that forms a ring and overlaps at the ends. The many subspecies of Ensatina salamanders in California exhibit subtle morphological and genetic differences all along their range. They all interbreed with their immediate neighbors with one exception: where the extreme ends of the range overlap in Southern California, E. klauberi and E. eschscholtzii do not interbreed. So where do we mark the point of speciation?

Chronospecies are different stages in the same evolving lineage that existed at different points in time. Obviously, chronospecies present a problem for the biological species concept—for example, it is not really possible (or very meaningful!) to figure out whether a trilobite living 300 million years ago would have interbred with its ancestor living 310 million years ago.

http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evosite/evo101/VA1BioSpeciesConcept.shtml

 

[Nanci]

I think it's time that people face the facts concerning hybrids - it's impossible to know or prove that your corn's ancestry is and always has been "pure". Setting up a general definition or guideline for purity can help people feel more comfortable with the snake that they have. "Sure, it may have had a hybrid ancestor some 10k odd years ago, but I can be reasonably sure that there have been none in the past 25 generations".

The question of whether snakes have been hybridized comes up when a new gene crops up. We know there are wild populations of motley, amel and anery. Caramel? I don't know the answer to that off the top of my head. It is reported that bloodreds were wild-caught, and they are similar to the keys corns, and rosy bloods (wild caught) have been proven to be homo kastanie. All those, if you know where to look, you can go out and catch wild specimens today.

It's the genes whose history is murky, like ultra, offer the possibility of a hybrid ancestor. The genes which resemble other patterns in different species (tessera, palmetto) are fuel for speculation.

 

[dave partington]

When I look at some of the individual specimens of Trans Pecos Ratsnakes, Motley corns, and look at some of the obsoleta ssp variants,

or stripe and some of the obsoleta quadrivittatus variants

how many different "species" have saddles?

Instead of looking for the presence of similar patterns, does a lack of pattern indicate anything?
...some of those near-patternless south Florida corns and other near-patternless colubrids which in the vernacular are called 'ratsnakes'...

And simply as far as color goes, gray base colored wild Miami locality, should that be a subspecies?



The more geographically distant two species are, are they less likely to successfully reproduce? Is anyone aware of a hybrid between a North American and a South American colubrid? Or have the two land masses perhaps been separated from each other for so long the two are no longer compatible?

a couple of links
http://www.ratsnakefoundation.org/index.php/ratsnake-species/american-ratsnakes
http://srelherp.uga.edu/snakes/elaobs.htm

Of course I have two genes and two grandparents just like everyone else

 

[Carpe Serpentis]

The picture you linked showing how where boundaries overlap integrades occur was very telling. The same thing of course can be said for all wild caught hybrids regardless of how one classes them though. I've heard of a hybrid between a japanese rat and a corn, but I've never seen a picture so to me its rumor until proven or shared if you will. I see species, hybrids, integrades, and any such labeling of man as an attempt by man to simply notice that where pools of individuals reside interbreeding occurs and thus similarities occur. Where pools of individuals overlap boundaries and differences become more fuzzy. I see species and our classifications of them as useful to understand relationships or kinships, but to say any species is pure is beyond my ability to reason when one looks at the fact that these hybrids, integrades, etc. have been happening not just in our lifetime when we may stumble upon them, but since life began. Species are as real as races are real when talking about humans. We all know there are no true races of humans. There are however cultural differences and similarities between populations that have resided in one area together for an extended period of time. Interbreeding has always occured with humans along cultural and geographical boundaries as well. This is why we enjoy the diversity that we enjoy today.

 

[Carpe Serpentis]

Cornsnake x Ratsnake Combos
------------------------------------
Creamsicle Corn "Amelanistic" Corn Snake X Emory Rat Snake Pic1 Pic2
Rootbeer Corn: "Normal Colored" Corn Snake X Emory Rat Snake Pic1
Cinnamon Corn = "Hypo" Corn Snake X Emory Rat Snake Pic1 Pic2
Snowsicle = "snow" Corn Snake X Emory Rat Snake
Fudgesicle = "anery" Corn Snake X emory Rat Snake

Pearl Corn snake "leucistic" = Corn Snake X Leucistic Texas Rat Snake
Frosted Corn snake = Corn Snake X Grey Rat Snake Pic1
Frosted Creamsicle "amelanistic" = Corn Snake X Grey Rat Snake
Ultra "Ultramel" Corn snake = Corn Snake X Grey Rat Snake
Bairdi Corn = Corn snake X Baird's rat snake Pic1
Corn snake x Fox snake Pic1
Beast Corn = Corn snake X Black Rat Snake
Corn snake X Everglades Rat snake

Corn Snake X Japanese Rat Snake
Corn Snake X Kunasir Rat snake
Corn Snake X Radiated Rat snake


Cornsnake X Kingsnake Combos
-------------------------------------
Jungle Corn: California Kingsnake X Corn snake Pictures
Super Jungle Corn or Super corn= 75% Cornsnake , 25% Lampropeltis getula (Cornsnake X Jungle Corn) Pictures
Lesser Jungle Corn = 75% california king, 25% corn snake (cal king X Jungle corn)
Florida Jungle Corn = Florida king X Corn Snake Pictures
Desert Jungle Corn = Desert King X Corn Snake
Eastern Jungle Corn= Eastern King X Corn Snake
Corn snake X Variable Kingsnake "thayeri" Pictures
Axminster Corn = Corn snake X Speckled Kingsnake
Corn snake X Black Kingsnake
Corn snake X Prairie Kingsnake
Tri Color Jungle Corns = Corn Snake x Ruthven's King Picture
Corn snake X Greyband Kingsnake
Brook Korn = Brooks king X Corn snake

Cornsnake X Milksnake Combos
-------------------------------------
Sinacorn: Corn snake X Sinaloan Milksnake Pic1
Pueblacorn: Corn snake X Pueblan Milksnake Pic1 Pic2
Cornduran = Cornsnake X Honduran Milksnake
Cornelson/Cornson = Corn snake X Nelsons Milk Pic1 Pic2

Kingsnake Combos
------------------------------
Lemon King = Florida King X California Kingsnake
Carpet King: Variable "Thayeri" X Greeri
Pastel King: "Amelanistic" (Variable King X Ruthven's Kingsnake) X (Variable Kingsnake)
Variable Kingsnake X Ruthven's Kingsnake
Arizona Mountain King x Ruthven's Kingsnake
Tarahumara Mountain King x Ruthven's kingsnake
GreyEye = Variable X Greyband Pic1
Ruthven's X Greyband Pic1 Pic2
San Louis Potsi "mexmex" X Ruthven's Pic1
Greyband X California King Pic1 Pic2


Milksnake X Milksnake Combos
-----------------------------------

Camduran: Pueblan Milk X Honduran Milk
Pueblan X Sinaloan
Honduran X Sinaloan
Pueblan X Nelsons

Kingsnake X Milksnake Combos
-------------------------------------
Clown King: Thayeri X Nelson's Milk Pic1 Pic2
Candy Coloured Clown: "Amelanistic" Thayeri X Nelsons Milksnake
Painted King: 75% Pueblan Milk X 25% Cal King
Imperial Pueblan: 25% Pueblan Milk X 75% Banana Cal King
Sinacal = California Kingsnake X Sinaloan Milk
Pueblan Milk Snake x Ruthven's Kingsnake
FL King X Honduran
Brooklan = Florida King X Pueblan
Durango X Pueblan

Ratsnake X Ratsnake Combos
----------------------------------------
Bubblegum Ratsnake: "Amelanistic" Black X Yellow X Everglades Bill and Cathy Love Pic1
Greenish Ratsnake: Black Ratsnake X Yellow Ratsnake
Black Ratsnake X Everglades Ratsnake
Bairds Rat X Everglades Ratsnake
Bairds Rat X Yellow Rat
Bairds Rat X Geat Plains Rat
Bairds Rat X Grey Rat
Texas rat X Baird's rat Pic1
Texas Ratsnake X Black Rat
Whitesided Ratsnake : Whitesided black rat X bairds, yellow, glades whatever else has white sides

Kingsnake X Ratsnake
-----------------------------------
florida king X yellow ratsnake Pic1
Yellow Rat X Speckled King

Milksnake X Ratsnake
-----------------------------------
tex-duran=Texas rat X honduran Pic1


Super Pueblacorns: 62.5% cornsnake, 25% Pueblan milk, 12.5% Cali king
Turbocorns: Cornsnake X Gophersnake

Pyro Greeri Ruthveni Alterna Holbrooki Campbelli. (Mountain Milks)
Campbelli 50%
Alterna 18.75%
Holbrooki 12.5%
Pyro 6.25%
Greeri 6.25%
Ruthveni 6.25%

Triple Combos

Ruthveni x Pueblan x Alterna = Candy Kings

Honduran Milk x Albino Cal King x Florida King = Jurassic Milks

Desert King x Cornsnake x Albino Cal King = Splendida Jungle Corns

Corn Snake x Imperial Pueblan = Imperial Pueblacorn

Imperial Pueblan X Nelsons Milksnake

baird's rat X black rat X corn

Jungle Creams = Creamsicle X Cal King

(great plains rat X Ghost Corn) X (Grey Rat X Ghost Corn "frosted ghost") I am hoping F2 look better

brook corn Brooks X corn
Brook Jungles (brook X corn) x (corn X cal king)

nelsons X (pueblan X thayeri)

http://www.hybridherps.com/forum/index.php?topic=22.0
And of course this doesn't begin to touch crosses involving the babies of these hybrids with their siblings or with other possible crosses not yet attempted.

 

[Carpe Serpentis]

"A species is often defined as a group of individuals that actually or potentially interbreed in nature."

I interpret this to mean, that if an organism can interbreed actually or potentially, then they constitute a single species.

"Also, many plants, and some animals, form hybrids in nature. Hooded crows and carrion crows look different, and largely mate within their own groups—but in some areas, they hybridize. Should they be considered the same species or separate species?"

My personal vote would be same species. This means to me that any hybrid that was fertile and capable of interbreeding is not really a hybrid, but a member of the same species.

"If two lineages of oak look quite different, but occasionally form hybrids with each other, should we count them as different species?"
Again, my vote is no.

"A species is often defined as a group of individuals that actually or potentially interbreed in nature."


"There are lots of other places where the boundary of a species is blurred. It’s not so surprising that these blurry places exist—after all, the idea of a species is something that we humans invented for our own convenience!"

What does the above mean? It means that the concept or idea of a species is something we humans invented for our own convenience. With this simple understanding in place, we can easily rule that if a snake is capable of producing fertile young and interbreeding within a population that it is a member of the same species. This is my personal gold standard. I personally define a species as all members of a group that can interbreed and produce fertile offspring regardless of real or imagined boundaries. This simplified view would also make it much less worry about if a snake was a hybrid or not. Any hybrids would not be able to add to the gene pool as all hybrids would be sterile or infertile.

 

[Carpe Serpentis]

citing for above. http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evosite/evo101/VADefiningSpecies.shtml

Proposal

To define a definition of a pure corn that can be checked and regulated.
I believe I'm the first to answer this question. See above.

 

[airenlow]

Randomness means different things in various fields. Commonly, it means lack of pattern or predictability in events.

The Oxford English Dictionary defines "random" as "Having no definite aim or purpose; not sent or guided in a particular direction; made, done, occurring, etc., without method or conscious choice; haphazard." This concept of randomness suggests a non-order or non-coherence in a sequence of symbols or steps, such that there is no intelligible pattern or combination.

Applied usage in science, mathematics and statistics recognizes a lack of predictability when referring to randomness, but admits regularities in the occurrences of events whose outcomes are not certain. For example, when throwing two dice and counting the total, we can say that a sum of 7 will randomly occur twice as often as 4. This view, where randomness simply refers to situations where the certainty of the outcome is at issue, applies to concepts of chance, probability, and information entropy. In these situations, randomness implies a measure of uncertainty, and notions of haphazardness are irrelevant.

The fields of mathematics, probability, and statistics use formal definitions of randomness. In statistics, a random variable is an assignment of a numerical value to each possible outcome of an event space. This association facilitates the identification and the calculation of probabilities of the events. A random process is a sequence of random variables describing a process whose outcomes do not follow a deterministic pattern, but follow an evolution described by probability distributions. These and other constructs are extremely useful in the probability calculus.

Randomness is often used in statistics to signify well-defined statistical properties, such as a lack of bias or correlation. Monte Carlo methods, which rely on random input, are important techniques in science, as, for instance, in computational science.[1]

Random selection is a method of selecting items (oftentimes called units) from a population where the probability of choosing a specific item is the proportion of those items in the population. For example, if we have a bowl of 100 marbles with 10 red (and any red marble is indistinguishable from any other red marble) and 90 blue (and any blue marble is indistinguishable from any other blue marble), a random selection mechanism would choose a red marble with probability 1/10. Note that a random selection mechanism that selected 10 marbles from this bowl would not necessarily result in 1 red and 9 blue. In situations where a population consists of items that are distinguishable, a random selection mechanism requires equal probabilities for any item to be chosen. That is, if the section process is such that each member of a population, of say research subjects, has the same probability of being chosen then we can say the selection process is random. Random selection can be an official method to resolve tied elections in some jurisdictions[2] and is even an ancient method of divination, as in tarot, the I Ching, and bibliomancy. Its use in politics is very old, as office holders in Ancient Athens were chosen by lot, there being no voting.

 

[WingedSweetheart]

I did not read the whole thread.

I personally do not really like using the word "pure" it kind of makes me feel like a Nazi.

If I got a corn snake from the wild and it looks like what we define as a corn snake then it is a corn snake to me. Yes I understand it could have something else in it. But there is no way to tell. If somehow it was proven that 10, 20, 30 or whatever years ago this corn snake had an ancestor that got it on with a rat snake then so be it. Still a corn snake to me.

I do not think of intergrades as hybrids.

To me a hybrid is man made or does not happen often in nature. I am not talking about animals that are known to hybridize on a regular basis out in the wild.

We all know of the occasional weirdo that pops up. There have been a few examples posted already.
You usually can tell right off the bat that this animal looks weird. Once the weirdo breeds with local populations though then all the population is "contaminated" by the hybrid. A few years down the road someone picks up one of the great great great grandchildren and has no idea there was ever anything funny in the mix and thinks its a pure snake. That is why I think that after so many generations the snake is no longer a hybrid.

There is a lot of grey area between "pure" and "hybrid" and I don't think anyone will ever agree on what is what. I mean even the people who classify this stuff can't seem to make up their minds on what is what. It is always changing. Snakes that are classified one thing today may end up classified as something else tomorrow.

Just some food for thought. Why is it that black rat snakes and yellow rats snake breed together in the wild were their range overlaps and the resulting snakes are called "Moonshine" rat snakes.
However if I were to take a black rat snake and a yellow rat snake and breed them in captivity, it is not a Moonshine?

Then there are salamanders. Mole salamanders in particular just love to hybridize! Let's look at Jefferson's, Blue Spotted, and Yellow Spotted. If they share a breeding pool then they don't care what color spots the other has! Often you can not tell which offspring are hybrids.

How about frogs and toads? In my area I have American toads and Fowler's toads. They are know to breed with each other. I have 3 WC American toads. Do they have Fowler's in them somewhere along time line? I don't know, but they probably do.

 

[Carpe Serpentis]

Darn those pesky toads, salamanders, and snakes for forgetting who we have designated they should breed with or not having it mapped out on their skins in such a way that we could tell all hybrids in nature even if they occured 25 generations ago! Of course, I don't think of hybrids as hybrids so long as the offspring are fertile.

 

[airenlow]

Darn those pesky poll results...

 

[Carpe Serpentis]

Darn those pesky poll results...

If a snake has any hybrid ancestor, no matter how many generations ago, it's still a hybrid.

I agree that of those posting, more are posting in favor of the above. But what does this tell us considering that no one can prove their corn snake does not have a hybrid ancestor? What does this prove since we know that hybrids and intergrades are known to occur in nature and have always occured in nature?

 

[Nanci]

It tells us, who cares? If you care, don't use ultra (the only probably-known hybrid, with someone who actually says they hybridized, although they have apparently changed their story a time or two...) in your projects. If you're the conspiracy theory type, don't use tessera or palmetto. Seems simple enough, and that is what people are already doing...

 

[Carpe Serpentis]

It tells us, who cares? If you care, don't use ultra (the only probably-known hybrid, with someone who actually says they hybridized, although they have apparently changed their story a time or two...) in your projects. If you're the conspiracy theory type, don't use tessera or palmetto. Seems simple enough, and that is what people are already doing...

Okay, I see some people don't care.

If a snake has any hybrid ancestor, no matter how many generations ago, it's still a hybrid.

I agree that of those posting, more are posting in favor of the above. But what does this tell us considering that no one can prove their corn snake does not have a hybrid ancestor?
If no one can prove the parents, grandparents, etc. of a snake are not hybrids... then it tells us this whole argument is a moot point.

What does this prove since we know that hybrids and intergrades are known to occur in nature and have always occured in nature? This tells us that all corns most most likely have a hybrid ancestor if you go back far enough as hybrids and integrades have always occured in nature since the first corn snake evolved to be what we consider to be a corn snake.

This means that if you believe,"If a snake has any hybrid ancestor, no matter how many generations ago, it's still a hybrid." Then all corns are hybrids to some extent.

 

[Nanci]

Okay, you win!

 

[airenlow]

"Two immediate problems with hybrids are their lack of pick-up and their battery life. First, acceleration in hybrids is generally very poor, even if they are capable of a reasonable top speed. Second, the batteries degenerate faster than one is accustomed to with a standard car battery, and need to be replaced every 80,000 miles or less. These batteries cost several thousand dollars each.

The most serious problem with hybrid designs are the manufacturing inputs for their high performance batteries and electric motors. They are very intensive in rare elements, which goes a long way to explaining their expense. Most of these elements currently come from China, and the supply as it exists today is not expected to last more than several years under even the most generous estimates. Efforts are underway to open new sources of these rare elements, but it is probable that they will not be producing in quantity before the existing supplies begin to dwindle and cause a shortage."

 

[Carpe Serpentis]

I do understand that some like locality corn snakes. I like them as well. I can also empathize with those that would like to see these in their collection and know they represent what is typical of that area. I can see the argument that hybrids, while they do occur and always have occured and thus muddy the gene pool without our efforts that some hybrids are from areas so geographically remote that they would not occur in nature and thus are not natural.

Miami corn x Okeetee corn is an example that would not occur in nature as the two are too far removed geographically to occur naturally. This for me is one reason I see no problem extending the boundaries even further to include specimens found in Honduras, Belize, etc. If we don't have a problem with a miami x okeetee then why another geographical area that would not occur should suddenly be a problem is beyond me.

 

[bitsy]

I think it's time that people face the facts concerning hybrids -

The main fact coming out of this poll, is that there is no mandate for the proposed standard. Current results: there are more than twice as many respondents for whom "Once a hybrid, always a hybrid" is their choice (24 out of 35 at the current time).

A standard only works if everyone uses it. If this message board poll is an indicator, two-thirds of people who care about the issue (which is a tiny proportion of all Corn owners) won't use your proposed standard.

 

[SnakeAround]

"Two immediate problems with hybrids are their lack of pick-up and their battery life. First, acceleration in hybrids is generally very poor, even if they are capable of a reasonable top speed. Second, the batteries degenerate faster than one is accustomed to with a standard car battery, and need to be replaced every 80,000 miles or less. These batteries cost several thousand dollars each.

The most serious problem with hybrid designs are the manufacturing inputs for their high performance batteries and electric motors. They are very intensive in rare elements, which goes a long way to explaining their expense. Most of these elements currently come from China, and the supply as it exists today is not expected to last more than several years under even the most generous estimates. Efforts are underway to open new sources of these rare elements, but it is probable that they will not be producing in quantity before the existing supplies begin to dwindle and cause a shortage."

I drove a Honda Civic hybrid and acceleration from stand still is superior to many sporty cars on gas! You get the full electric power from the first second and that's awesome!

 

[Carpe Serpentis]

The main fact coming out of this poll, is that there is no mandate for the proposed standard. Current results: there are more than twice as many respondents for whom "Once a hybrid, always a hybrid" is their choice (24 out of 35 at the current time).

Agreed, not only is there no mandate for a standard, but there is no clear standard either.

A standard only works if everyone uses it. If this message board poll is an indicator, two-thirds of people who care about the issue (which is a tiny proportion of all Corn owners) won't use your proposed standard.

Also agreed. It seems some people do care about a standard, but there is no clear consensus on what the standard is or should be other than perhaps dna sequencing corn snakes as some have suggested... much to intensive for my tastes or budget. My only viable solution was to state that once a standard was adopted and or snakes grandfathered in, that paternity testing could ensure no additional outside influence was added to the pool without also being vetted by the experts. Again though, there is no desire for even that small expenditure to be spent on paternity testing either which admittedly would not solve the problem, but simply prove the lineage provided by the breeder.