Proposal regarding hybrids / pure corns

[Nanci]

Isn't there a key describing each type of ratsnake?

 

[Carpe Serpentis]

Isn't there a key describing each type of ratsnake?

I believe a key was linked a few pages back describing each type of ratsnake, but one had to click on it to go and see it. If we used a key however, then the proposal:

To define a definition of a pure corn that can be checked and regulated.

Would simply be: As long as a snake looks like a corn and acts like a corn, it's pure to me. I still believe the idea of a pure corn is still illusory and that finding is backed up by Berkeley Universities page.

http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evosite/evo101/VADefiningSpecies.shtml
"the idea of a species is something that we humans invented for our own convenience!"

 

[Carpe Serpentis]

In short, a key as the standard used would simply mean that if it looks like a corn then it is a corn.

 

[BloodyBaroness]

The "As long as a snake looks like a corn and acts like a corn" is not going to fly with more than 68% of the people.

So since you are spearheading the standard, start the database, start the DNA work...

 

[diamondlil]

Am I right in thinking no-one has actually mapped the cornsnake genome yet? And no-one has actually performed a paternity test either? My personal knowledge of cheek-swab type tests is from very occasional watching of dreadful reality daytime TV, where shouty common people argue over who the real daddy of some poor child is. They also do lie detector testing on those shows too, so maybe we should go the whole hog and wire up a breeder before asking them just how they got their unusual new line of corns from?

 

[bitsy]

LOL! I think if we start wiring breeders up to electrical equipment, there'd be trouble!

I also think that if we could have DNA-tested our way out of a hybrid debate then we would have long ago done it with Ultra.

 

[diamondlil]

The "As long as a snake looks like a corn and acts like a corn" is not going to fly with more than 68% of the people.

So since you are spearheading the standard, start the database, start the DNA work...

Captain! Is that a gauntlet I see laying there?

 

[vetdebbie]

Am I right in thinking no-one has actually mapped the cornsnake genome yet? And no-one has actually performed a paternity test either? My personal knowledge of cheek-swab type tests is from very occasional watching of dreadful reality daytime TV, where shouty common people argue over who the real daddy of some poor child is. They also do lie detector testing on those shows too, so maybe we should go the whole hog and wire up a breeder before asking them just how they got their unusual new line of corns from?

The corn snake genome is in the process of being sequenced at Bangor University (In Wales for you Yanks )

 

[diamondlil]

The corn snake genome is in the process of being sequenced at Bangor University (In Wales for you Yanks )

Excellent......but how do they know those corns being mapped are pure...........

 

[BloodyBaroness]

LOL! I think if we start wiring breeders up to electrical equipment, there'd be trouble!

I also think that if we could have DNA-tested our way out of a hybrid debate then we would have long ago done it with Ultra.

:laugh01:

So true!

Captain! Is that a gauntlet I see laying there?

Perhaps.

I just think it's time to practice what is preached. Put up or shut up time, if one wants to use that phrase.

All this lofty talk is just that, lofty talk.

 

[Carpe Serpentis]

The "As long as a snake looks like a corn and acts like a corn" is not going to fly with more than 68% of the people.

The problem seems to be that 68% of the people want to declare they don't want to work with hybrids which just isn't possible if one includes the fact that they also do not want to work with pure looking corns that may have had a hybrid ancestor 25 generations ago. Hybrids do and will continue to happen in nature and they will continue to interbreed and have since corn snakes first evolved into what we label as a species.

If there was a standard then there could be something we could all strive to maintain. But I don't see a general consensus on just what that standard should be or how it should be proven. Now, I've tossed out the idea that paternity testing could help keep the standard pure if one first disclosed just what the standard is or which snakes met the standard. Paternity testing would also help with problems of retained semen from a previous breeding and parthenogenesis should that occur and that may not be any fault of the breeder. If we state that we don't want to allow corns to breed with another snake outside its natural geographic range we must decide if that includes breeding one locality type corn to another locality corn which it would never have the chance of doing in the wild such as miami x okeetee. If we losen up the ropes and define a species as any animal that can interbreed and produce viable offspring then there is no problem, but I don't see too many jumping on that idea either.
http://www.akc.org/dna/
You can read why some breeders use dna testing on the above link.

The bottom line is that without some sort of agreed upon standard how is anyone going to be reasonably expected to follow it?

 

[BloodyBaroness]

Start the leg work, work up a standard, do the testing... then submit the data you collected for peer review.

You keep insisting how simple it is, the rest of us are not buying that it is. If I were you, I would be chomping at the bit to prove I was right.

We can't agree on something that has not been fully researched and written.

It is not nearly as easy as you think. You can keeping posting like a cat trying to bury a turd in concrete, but that is not going to change anything with the angle you are trying to pitch. Paternity testing is not the answer. Some simple statement is not the answer.

It's going to take a massive vestment of time and resources to create a standard.

 

[diamondlil]

Now, I've tossed out the idea that paternity testing could help keep the standard pure if one first disclosed just what the standard is or which snakes met the standard. Paternity testing would also help with problems of retained semen from a previous breeding and parthenogenesis should that occur and that may not be any fault of the breeder. I

So go ahead, get breeding your snakes and do the tests.

 

[Carpe Serpentis]

http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2148/7/123
For those interested in snakes being sequenced.

Thanks for the tip as I never thought to research that.

Personally, I'd like to know what the standard is and how to maintain it and while I contemplate that I have thoughts of perhaps different standards such as we have with dogs and dog breeds and perhaps there are simply unwritten standards and each breeders accepted lines are similar to different breeds of dogs. Sure, corn/dogs are different animals, but you get the idea.
In a different light though, I'm also not overly concerned as I believe a species is any group of animals that are able to interbreed and produce fertile young in which case there is no fear of interbreeding or intermingling outside of the species as any such attempts will prove infertile or not fit my definition of species.

 

[Carpe Serpentis]

It's going to take a massive vestment of time and resources to create a standard.

So, your saying there is no standard? If there is no standard then how can we work to maintain our illusion of purity?

 

[BloodyBaroness]

There is a saddle count, ventral scale, anal plate formation, facial scale arrangement and count. Those are the closest things to a standard currently.

Hybrids have differing scale counts, structure and pattern that is set for corns.

 

[Carpe Serpentis]

There is a saddle count, ventral scale, anal plate formation, facial scale arrangement and count. Those are the closest things to a standard currently.

Hybrids have differing scale counts, structure and pattern that is set for corns.

Again, we are back to if it looks like a corn and acts like a corn then it meets the standard. You see where I'm going with this of course. This is so frustrating trying to meet that standard and still make everyone happy or content that there was no outside influence so to speak.

As long as a snake looks like a corn and acts like a corn, it's pure to me

 

[diamondlil]

Again, we are back to if it looks like a corn and acts like a corn then it meets the standard. You see where I'm going with this of course. This is so frustrating trying to meet that standard and still make everyone happy or content that there was no outside influence so to speak.

As long as a snake looks like a corn and acts like a corn, it's pure to me

What dog do you have in this race? Do you wish to win over hearts and minds of the general corn-owning population or do you intend to breed corns and hybrids and sell them with paternity testing documents?

 

[Carpe Serpentis]

What dog do you have in this race? Do you wish to win over hearts and minds of the general corn-owning population or do you intend to breed corns and hybrids and sell them with paternity testing documents?

"What dog do you have in this race?"

Just a small pekingese at the moment. I'd just really like an answer to the question of what is the standard and how do we work towards that standard in any real or meaningful way?
I must admit it is a frustrating me to some extent, but I am eager to learn.

"Do you wish to win over hearts and minds of the general corn-owning population or do you intend to breed corns and hybrids and sell them with paternity testing documents?"
I don't believe fertile hybrids are possible so they would be entirely impossible to breed thus proving their hybrid origin so no paternity test would be needed and easy enough for another to prove falsified if one were to make genuine hybrids.

My belief is that all members of a species can interbreed and produce fertile offspring.

 

[starsevol]

Start the leg work, work up a standard, do the testing... then submit the data you collected for peer review.

You keep insisting how simple it is, the rest of us are not buying that it is. If I were you, I would be chomping at the bit to prove I was right.

We can't agree on something that has not been fully researched and written.

It is not nearly as easy as you think. You can keeping posting like a cat trying to bury a turd in concrete, but that is not going to change anything with the angle you are trying to pitch. Paternity testing is not the answer. Some simple statement is not the answer.

It's going to take a massive vestment of time and resources to create a standard.

Methinks he needs to do less talky, and more worky......