Proposal regarding hybrids / pure corns

[dave partington]

I'm more concerned about the results of a paternity test on the breeder :sidestep:

 

[Carpe Serpentis]

I asked a this week ago. Why are we still asking CP the same question 15 different ways? I'm not sure Farmville wouldn't be a more productive use of time. /unsubscribe thread

You question is, can dna testing for paternity prove that there is no hybrid origin? The simple answer is no, it can not. It can only prove that the parents are who they are stated to be.

"We're always going to make mistakes," said Dr. Peter Pronovost, medical director at the Center for Innovation in Quality Patient Care at Johns Hopkins University Medical School of Medicine. "What we need to do is reduce harm." "Staff members may have feared retribution or may have not wanted to report their own colleagues, Dorrill said."

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/Wellness/hospital-staff-report-hospital-errors/story?id=15308019

I honestly can't believe that snake breeders or hybridizers are not at least as fallible as the medical profession.

 

[MysticExotics]

You question is, can dna testing for paternity prove that there is no hybrid origin? The simple answer is no, it can not. It can only prove that the parents are who they are stated to be.

"We're always going to make mistakes," said Dr. Peter Pronovost, medical director at the Center for Innovation in Quality Patient Care at Johns Hopkins University Medical School of Medicine. "What we need to do is reduce harm." "Staff members may have feared retribution or may have not wanted to report their own colleagues, Dorrill said."

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/Wellness/hospital-staff-report-hospital-errors/story?id=15308019

I honestly can't believe that snake breeders or hybridizers are not at least as fallible as the medical profession.

Really?? It's apples to donuts....

 

[beautifullywild77]

dagnabbit... Heather, I must spread rep before giving you anymore!

hehehehehe

 

[Carpe Serpentis]

Really?? It's apples to donuts....

So you think breeders can be above reproach and free of error 100% of the time? Am I understanding you correctly?

 

[MysticExotics]

So you think breeders can be above reproach and free of error 100% of the time? Am I understanding you correctly?

Nope, you're making assumptions on what I meant.
Comparing Cornsnake breeding to mistakes made in the medical field is rediculous. There is nothing remotely similar there.

 

[Nanci]

Why are we even talking about this again?

 

[beautifullywild77]

Because some people like to repeat things over and over and over and over and over again?

 

[Carpe Serpentis]

Nope, you're making assumptions on what I meant.
Comparing Conrsnake breeding to mistakes made in the medical field is rediculous. There is nothing remotely similar there.

Errors made by professionals or would be professionals is just one correlation that I was trying to make.

I was asking for clarification as to what you meant, not assuming that is what you meant as I can't see anyone not seeing a correlation. Admittedly, errors in the healthcare field tend to have a chance at being much more costly than errors in paternity are to a breeder. Still, cost is another correlation if your looking for correlations and can't find any.

 

[chris68]

We're still talking about pet trade corn snakes right? Are folks REALLY that concerned that an entry level reptile that generally sells for around 30 bucks that has been in the market and subject to the whims of human nature for what, 40 plus years may have a tinge of something else, so concerned that the idea of breeders subjecting all their pet trade breeder corns for dna testing sounds plausible??? Sorry but that is jmho ridiculous. If someone is THAT concerned a: work with something else or b: work with someone you trust. There are more than enough reputable guys/gals online that when they say "Hey, I'm sure it's a pure corn" I'm going to take them at their word. But c'mon, really? That this has been going on is common enough knowledge. If you're shocked by any of these revelations you didn't do your homework

Pet morph corns may/may not be pure corn...Well....Duh Again, they are P E T M A R K E T corn snakes...You can't change what is...

My opinion as always, but I don't feel the need for ANY designation, other than each others word that when we sell you something it is what we think it is.

 

[MysticExotics]

I'm sorry, but I cannot see comparing breeding of any animal to life & death situations that doctors face. It's not the same types of mistakes, & the cost of those mistakes (in either of those two completely different situations) are a whole other ballgame.

 

[Carpe Serpentis]

I'm sorry, but I cannot see comparing breeding of any animal to life & death situations that doctors face. It's not the same types of mistakes, & the cost of those mistakes (in either of those two completely different situations) are a whole other ballgame.

I agree 100% with your statement that the costs in the healthcare field where life and death is at stake is much more costly. I would even go out on a limb and say that in the health care field it is much more important to catch those errors than it is to catch a breeding error. My point is if a hospital, dr, nurse, etc. can make errors then no one is free from the potential to make errors as you can rest assured that it is much more important to a doctor or nurses mind not to make mistakes than it is in the average breeders mind not to make a mistake. That is why I used the example I used.

 

[dave partington]

I've chewed off 5 sets of perfectly good fingernails throughout this thread.
If someone sees my key laying around somewhere please wind me up again.
Why do jeans come in pairs and why do I have 2 sets of genes?

 

[Carpe Serpentis]

I've chewed off 5 sets of perfectly good fingernails throughout this thread.
If someone sees my key laying around somewhere please wind me up again.
Why do jeans come in pairs and why do I have 2 sets of genes?

Its good to have some laughter, and yes... I too feel the same way. Thanks for the laugh.:grin01:

 

[Isoldael]

To get back to the original point of this thread - ensuring the "purity" of Corn bloodlines - nothing will work without full DNA sequencing, which is expensive. And nobody is going to pay for it. And we don't even know whether it's technically feasible.

I think you missed the point of the thread. My point was to establish a standard definition for what is hybrid and what is pure - one that can be kept track of to some extent. Seeing that tracking down every snake's ancestors all the way to their wild caught ancestor (and beyond to rule out natural hybridizing) is feasible nor possible, we can rule out the "once a hybrid always a hybrid" option as a workable definition.

Personally I don't give a shift if all our corns are pure or not, I love them either way. I am sick and tired of all the "omg is hybrid" and "omg is pure" discussions about certain morphs, though. Having a definition that relies on a certain number of pure corn ancestors could stop those discussions even for genes that may have originated from another species, for instance, tessera. Say you have a tessera that meets the minimum number of corn-specific traits (including behaviour as well as physical traits) and has x generations of corns as ancestors. With the definition in place, that snake could be called pure, even if x+1 generations back, a corn x cali king cross was done (which seems the most popular tessera-is-hybrid-theory now).

We are changing the captive population immensely by breeding with them anyway. As long as a snake is healthy and has no increased stress or anything, looks, feels, acts and just lives like a corn, why not treat it as such instead of seeing it as a hybrid monster?

My turn to go slightly off-topic: I keep seeing people on forums and online selling/buying platforms give away their hybrids as snake food "because they are only hybrids anyway". As much as I think breeding hybrids is a personal choice people have to make, why breed hybrids just to see them get fed to another snake?

 

[airenlow]

I'd rather see 'em fed off than sold as corns.

 

[MysticExotics]

I think you missed the point of the thread. My point was to establish a standard definition for what is hybrid and what is pure - one that can be kept track of to some extent. Seeing that tracking down every snake's ancestors all the way to their wild caught ancestor (and beyond to rule out natural hybridizing) is feasible nor possible, we can rule out the "once a hybrid always a hybrid" option as a workable definition.

Personally I don't give a shift if all our corns are pure or not, I love them either way. I am sick and tired of all the "omg is hybrid" and "omg is pure" discussions about certain morphs, though. Having a definition that relies on a certain number of pure corn ancestors could stop those discussions even for genes that may have originated from another species, for instance, tessera. Say you have a tessera that meets the minimum number of corn-specific traits (including behaviour as well as physical traits) and has x generations of corns as ancestors. With the definition in place, that snake could be called pure, even if x+1 generations back, a corn x cali king cross was done (which seems the most popular tessera-is-hybrid-theory now).

We are changing the captive population immensely by breeding with them anyway. As long as a snake is healthy and has no increased stress or anything, looks, feels, acts and just lives like a corn, why not treat it as such instead of seeing it as a hybrid monster?

My turn to go slightly off-topic: I keep seeing people on forums and online selling/buying platforms give away their hybrids as snake food "because they are only hybrids anyway". As much as I think breeding hybrids is a personal choice people have to make, why breed hybrids just to see them get fed to another snake?

Because some snakes primary diet consists of other snakes. Some breeders do the same thing with "pure" normal hatchlings. Some people breed snake just for "feeders".

 

[bitsy]

I think you missed the point of the thread. My point was to establish a standard definition for what is hybrid and what is pure - one that can be kept track of to some extent. Seeing that tracking down every snake's ancestors all the way to their wild caught ancestor (and beyond to rule out natural hybridizing) is feasible nor possible, we can rule out the "once a hybrid always a hybrid" option as a workable definition.

Unfortunately, the majority of respondents to your poll (21:9 currently) do take the "once a hybrid always a hybrid" line. Your proposal has effectively been rejected - by the majority of people on this specific board who feel strongly enough to express an opinion, anyway. Maybe it would be accepted elsewhere, but it doesn't seem to be workable here. If someone doesn't feel that strongly, then they probably won't be reading this thread anyway and won't have responded to the poll.

Personally I don't give a shift if all our corns are pure or not, I love them either way. I am sick and tired of all the "omg is hybrid" and "omg is pure" discussions about certain morphs, though.

If you stick around for a few years, you'll understand that this is a contentious hot-button topic and these discussions recur regularly. They certainly have done so for the many years I've been a member of this particular board (I had a previous incarnation before 2005). You can't stop it I'm afraid. The hybrid issue pops up with every new morph and whenever someone wants to create mischief. If you're sick of these discussions, the best thing is to stay away from them. They won't stop with the introduction of your standard, because your proposal relies on people agreeing that a morph has hybrid ancestry to begin with. Which is the issue that causes all the hoo-hah in the first place because they never do. (Worth highlighting that bit I think).

Having a definition that relies on a certain number of pure corn ancestors could stop those discussions even for genes that may have originated from another species,

As has been shown by the results of your poll, this isn't workable. Some folks - although certainly a tiny minority in the world of pet Corn ownership - care deeply about having hybrid in their bloodlines. These people will already be taking the best precautions they can to protect that position (probably unsuccessfully, for the reasons rehashed multiple times in this thread and elsewhere). Having someone from outside tell them that actually it's OK because the hybrid was x generations ago, simply won't work for someone with this concern. And if a person doesn't have this concern, then the proposed standard is redundant anyway, because it addresses an issue that those owners don't have.

As long as a snake is healthy and has no increased stress or anything, looks, feels, acts and just lives like a corn, why not treat it as such instead of seeing it as a hybrid monster?

Nobody sees hybrids as monsters. If it matters that much, an owner will sell it on once the hybrid rumours begin. People talk big and loud about hybrids because to some people, it matters. It doesn't mean those people are out there hunting down captive hybrids and their owners/breeders, with flaming torches and pitchforks. Some hybrids are beautiful and are awesome pets. Some people just don't personally want to own or breed them - but neither do they want to stop others owning them. Personally, I own two GoldDusts

The issue for some (hello Josh!) is that hybrids can be - knowingly or unknowingly - sold as pure Corns. In that instance your proposed standard wouldn't help, as the hybrid element would either be deliberately ignored or not recognised in the first place. If you don't know that there's hybrid in the mix, you can't apply the standard.

My turn to go slightly off-topic: I keep seeing people on forums and online selling/buying platforms give away their hybrids as snake food "because they are only hybrids anyway". As much as I think breeding hybrids is a personal choice people have to make, why breed hybrids just to see them get fed to another snake?

Some snakes are snake-eaters. I don't think hybrids are particularly target-bred for this purpose (despite the fightin' talk above!), although obviously if you have a snake-eating snake, then you need food for it. Corns (and their hybrids) would be an obvious choice as they're easy to breed. People breed the easiest feeder mice. It's the same choice.

 

[diamondlil]

If someone doesn't feel that strongly, then they probably won't be reading this thread anyway and won't have responded to the poll.

And if a person doesn't have this concern, then the proposed standard is redundant anyway, because it addresses an issue that those owners don't have.

This and this; Look how many people as a proportion out of all active forum users have voted or even viewed this thread. However hot a topic is, some people will get involved, some just don't see what the fuss is and I'm willing to bet a lot of very happy corn owners just use this forum to get tips on how to keep their pets healthy

 

[Isoldael]

If you're sick of these discussions, the best thing is to stay away from them.

As has been shown by the results of your poll, this isn't workable.
Some folks - although certainly a tiny minority in the world of pet Corn ownership - care deeply about having hybrid in their bloodlines. These people will already be taking the best precautions they can to protect that position (probably unsuccessfully, for the reasons rehashed multiple times in this thread and elsewhere). Having someone from outside tell them that actually it's OK because the hybrid was x generations ago, simply won't work for someone with this concern. And if a person doesn't have this concern, then the proposed standard is redundant anyway, because it addresses an issue that those owners don't have.

Yes, but for the reasons stated in this thread, the "once a hybrid always a hybrid" definition doesn't work in any case. There is no way in the world to prove that at some point, your "pure" corn's ancestors weren't hybrids. Everyone can start marking their corns as hybrids right now then, the odds of no hybridizing ever happening in the entire history of the species are next to zero.

I think it's time that people face the facts concerning hybrids - it's impossible to know or prove that your corn's ancestry is and always has been "pure". Setting up a general definition or guideline for purity can help people feel more comfortable with the snake that they have. "Sure, it may have had a hybrid ancestor some 10k odd years ago, but I can be reasonably sure that there have been none in the past 25 generations".

Nobody sees hybrids as monsters.

I beg to differ. On the facebook pages, forums and other corn-related places I follow, I regularly see stuff like "Wow, that person breeds hybrids.. that f*ing sickens me! He should be shot through the head and all hybrids should be slaughtered". Of course, it's not the most prevalent opinion concerning hybrids, but I do see this way too often - way, WAY too extreme in my opinion. Either way, that's where the "monster" statement came from.

The issue for some (hello Josh!) is that hybrids can be - knowingly or unknowingly - sold as pure Corns. In that instance your proposed standard wouldn't help, as the hybrid element would either be deliberately ignored or not recognised in the first place. If you don't know that there's hybrid in the mix, you can't apply the standard.

People will always lie about things, there's no stopping that. A database in combination with, say, paternity tests, for instance, would at least help prove that your snakes came from the parents you listed as its parents, so you could prove the ancestry at least for x generations. I know that this would not be feasible for the cheaper morphs and normals, but with the more expensive ones, a relatively cheap paternity test might be worth it to prove that your snake is pure. This would be especially helpful if a new trait were to show up in one of your lines.