Scale less Corns anyone?

[Tracee]

Now this is one example how nature up grades a species. In order to succeed you must try. this is nature way of trying out something different.

But.... it's not nature....is it? Does human intervention count as 'nature' now (genuine question)?

I'd like to see one, handle one - I can't imagine how they must feel - but I don't think I would ever want one. It's just not natural to me :shrugs: why would we want or decide to remove a characteristic that every snake shares, no matter its type.

I'd still like to get my hands on one though. Maybe when they start breeding lavender scaleless, and bloodred scaleless, I'll find myself first in the queue

 

[Ayin]

There are plenty of these in their original form, you just have to know where to look, (HINT: It's not Westminster.)

Yes, for the most part. You just have to do a LOT of research and know what, where, and who to look for. I was speaking in generalities, and those breeds are up there on the "let's breed for exaggeration/beauty" instead of concentrating on breeding dogs that not only fit the standard, but are healthy and can do what they were bred for. Many have gone the way of the "pretty," and the breed as a whole has suffered for it.
As an example - my Mom used to breed American Cockers. I can't stand most Am. Cockers I see - they're hyperspastic pee machines. My Mom's dogs were intelligent, calm and playful, wonderful animals. And no "excitement pee". Could I find such a line again? I'm sure I could, but it would take a lot of digging

 

[PikaBun]

On the comment pertaining to fish: I like scaleless fish alot! They include catfish and loaches which are so varied in body shapes and finage designs.

 

[Ssthisto]

Snakes were created with scales for a reason. Dogs and cats were originally created with fur for a reason. To purposely breed away from their intended purpose to me is unethical.

Domesticated and captive bred animals' only "intended purpose" is to suit the owner's desires.

If having hair does that, then a fluffy Persian cat or Chow Chow is serving its intended purpose.
If producing tasty milk does that, then a Jersey cow is serving its intended purpose.
If having amazing colours does that, then a mutant captive-bred snake is serving its intended purpose - whether the mutant has lacking pigmentations or lacking integument.

And i can´t realy imagine that an amel realy got pain
only of his red eyes that they can`t look very well causin the lacking pigments

Animals with little to no melanin in their eyes have much more sensitivity to light - and being light sensitive myself I can tell you *I* experience bright light as pain. I have normal melanin in my eyes; how much more uncomfortable would it be for me if I were albinistic? I knew someone who was albino, and her eyes were even more light-sensitive and had more problems than mine. She was very nearly blind.

Are you SURE being amelanistic doesn't affect things?

I've seen nature programs with white(melanin)free animals surviving in the wild, but I've yet to see furless or scaleless animals surviving.

There have been wild-caught scaleless Texas ratsnakes - ADULT animals. Having a lack of scales doesn't seem to be a major negative, and it's possible that being heterozygous for the gene conveys some benefits that we don't know about (like being heterozygous for Sickle-Cell Anemia confers a higher level of immunity to malaria).

Well I´m pretty sure because the lacking pigment don´t even change the way the iris works and that controls ho wmuch light comes in to the eye aso.

You're unfortunately incorrect there.

A lack of melanin can also result in reduced intestinal function (rats and mice with white spotting also have white "spotting" in their intestines; if this is substantial enough they suffer from a problem called Megacolon). I can't help but wonder if Melanin is related in some way to the brain chemical Melatonin. How many other things in the body does melanin do OTHER than giving things black pigment in the skin/hair/scales/feathers?

I've been saying all along that many of these colour mutations are not just "paint jobs"...

 

[mike17l]

I'd have to agree. I find the scales on reptiles, and fish for that matter, very beautiful. I guess its interesting they are around at all, but they hold no appeal for me in anyway... the whole moral debate aside. I admitedly have only seen a few pics of scaleless rat snakes and know nothing of their care. I just dont agree with 'ugly' traits being promoted, and i find the scaleless snakes rather homely, but thats PURE opinion baby! everyone knows what they're worth. :laugh:.

Somebody already said it, but what about catfish and sturgeon? I love them.

 

[RosieReal]

Somebody already said it, but what about catfish and sturgeon? I love them.

Alright, you got me there! i agree. there are several forms of very neat and pretty catfish (and others) without scales. There are some exceptions to every rule i suppose. I dont think that snakes/lizards without scales fall into that exception...:shrugs:
this being said, i'm a big frog/salamander fan as well...and they dont have scales either.

 

[mike17l]

Alright, you got me there! i agree. there are several forms of very neat and pretty catfish (and others) without scales. There are some exceptions to every rule i suppose. I dont think that snakes/lizards without scales fall into that exception...:shrugs:
this being said, i'm a big frog/salamander fan as well...and they dont have scales either.

Speaking of frogs and salamanders, perhaps they have a recessive gene that makes them not have scales. Perhaps when we see scaleless snakes, we are seeing evolution happen before our very eyes.

 

[Vinman]

what about eels there are thousands of Ssp.

 

[RosieReal]

I'm in a little over my head here i think... i'm a fan of eel's and eel like fish, i think they're neat. As for the evolution, that very well could be. I guess we'll have to wait and see if scaless variety's of reptiles start just 'walking out of the woods' so to speak.
I just think they're homely.
I also think skinny pigs are homely, along with any breed of dog with an exagerated under bite, persian cats, hairless rats, gouramis and 'parrot fish'(that last one i belive to be an abomination, the poor fish cant even close their own mouths. its the only one i have a very strong opinion about).
some of these animals are examples of human interfearance, some are not. either way, just my opinion on how they look. I'm not saying they should or should not be(except the parrot fish, of course as mensioned above), just that they're not the look for me and i do not find them appealing.
I DO however think they're very interesting. I cant wait to see what time does to that particular gene. They're either just going to fade into obscurity, or become quite common/popular.
I'm sure these questions have been asked in this thread alredy, but its 28 pages long...so: do they shed? if so, what does it look like?

 

[mike17l]

I DO however think they're very interesting. I cant wait to see what time does to that particular gene. They're either just going to fade into obscurity, or become quite common/popular.

What will hurt them more than the fact that they have no scales is the fact that they are hybrids.

 

[Vinman]

What will hurt them more than the fact that they have no scales is the fact that they are hybrids.

Mike did someone crossed the scaleless texas rat into the corn.

 

[RosieReal]

What will hurt them more than the fact that they have no scales is the fact that they are hybrids.

agreed. I'm having enough of a time learning -cornsnake- genetics, let alone all the hybrids. i have no interest in the hybrids at the moment, seems like too big a 'plate'. I'd like to have a really good understanding of corns before i move on to anything elce...although i've been sorely tempted by ATP's on more than one occasion.

 

[mike17l]

Mike did someone crossed the scaleless texas rat into the corn.

The original breeder has the info on his website (there might be a link to it in this thread somewhere). But anyway, they came from a corn X emoryi cross.

 

[Vinman]

The original breeder has the info on his website (there might be a link to it in this thread somewhere). But anyway, they came from a corn X emoryi cross.

At this point and time , does it make a differance. How many corns that came out of the creamcicles and rootbeers projects that did not make the grade were bred into pure corns and are in what people are calling corns. The whole population of corns is so screwed. Who knows what is pure and what is not any more . How many jungles and milk and ghoper corn crosses have been bred back to pure lines.

 

[ceduke]

Breeding for the show ring is the worst thing that's ever happened to dogs. However, I still don't believe that ALL dog breeds are abominations and many breeds in from working lines are still extremely functional. Showline GSDs are frog legged freaks, not to even touch on the "American Show Shepherd" (which isn't even a GSD any more IMO). I don't know who the "we" breeding purebreds for poor traits is, but it's not anybody I would have anything to do with - they can keep their showring curs.

Where did I say ALL breeds? I said many. Working as a vet tech in an emergency clinic in a wealthy area I saw plenty of sad parodies of dogs. The Shih Tzu whose eyes would proptose if it sneezed too hard comes to mind, or the Pekingese who ALWAYS had to be in an oxygen cage because he passed out if he became too excited. Or the bulldog who we had to surgically remove some of his face folds because they covered his nose and made it hard for him to breathe. That same bulldog had such a pronounced underbite that its lower canines and incisors were always dry because they were out in the air.

Now that I work in a feed store, I see a lot of healthy, highly functional dogs. One of my customers has a ten year old GSD who moves like a youngster. Only his white face gives his age away.

I shouldn't have generalized with "we", so how about this.... "Lots of folks who breed dogs for the show ring or for their "cute" factor are disregarding the health of the animals and may wind up destroying some wonderful companion breeds."

 

[mike17l]

At this point and time , does it make a differance. How many corns that came out of the creamcicles and rootbeers projects that did not make the grade were bred into pure corns and are in what people are calling corns. The whole population of corns is so screwed. Who knows what is pure and what is not any more . How many jungles and milk and ghoper corn crosses have been bred back to pure lines.

Well, to some no it does not make a difference, but to a few, some still want to maintain corns as pure as possible.

 

[Emily1188]

Where did I say ALL breeds? I said many. Working as a vet tech in an emergency clinic in a wealthy area I saw plenty of sad parodies of dogs. The Shih Tzu whose eyes would proptose if it sneezed too hard comes to mind, or the Pekingese who ALWAYS had to be in an oxygen cage because he passed out if he became too excited. Or the bulldog who we had to surgically remove some of his face folds because they covered his nose and made it hard for him to breathe. That same bulldog had such a pronounced underbite that its lower canines and incisors were always dry because they were out in the air.

Now that I work in a feed store, I see a lot of healthy, highly functional dogs. One of my customers has a ten year old GSD who moves like a youngster. Only his white face gives his age away.

I shouldn't have generalized with "we", so how about this.... "Lots of folks who breed dogs for the show ring or for their "cute" factor are disregarding the health of the animals and may wind up destroying some wonderful companion breeds."

They also destroy all the working ability, intelligence, and solid temperament of many working breeds, which is an enormous qualm I have with the show ring. Dobermans have become the joke of the protection sports world, and they should be natural athletes and guardians... But alas, now you can watch many of them get run off the field by the decoy, while their mommies go to get their blankies for them. :nope:

By the way, I wasn't trying to imply that you said all breeds are bad. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

 

[RosieReal]

They also destroy all the working ability, intelligence, and solid temperament of many working breeds, which is an enormous qualm I have with the show ring. Dobermans have become the joke of the protection sports world, and they should be natural athletes and guardians... But alas, now you can watch many of them get run off the field by the decoy, while their mommies go to get their blankies for them. :nope:

By the way, I wasn't trying to imply that you said all breeds are bad. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

lol...you two are very adamantly agreeing with each other.

 

[wstphal]

My chi is an abomination. And if he pees on my newly-cleaned carpet one more time, he'll find himself in a tied-off pillowcase with a brick, observing the fauna at the bottom of the river behind my apartment. Glub-glub...

Maybe give him to someone who has a really BIG snake? Just kidding.

 

[Emily1188]

lol...you two are very adamantly agreeing with each other.

I never thought otherwise...? :shrugs: Mostly, I'm just ranting.