stupid breeders why cant you just leave things be

[DISCERN]

Discern, that's your opinion and nothing more, nothing less.

Doug, the sarcasm was directed to you b/c I'm tired of your holier that thou crap.

Let me and the other hybrid supporters/breeders do what we are passionate about just the same as we let you do what you are passionate about.

Despite what you think no one needs your freakin' permission to breed snakes! :angry01:

We don't come to your "pure" forums stirring up trouble like you do on other forums.......you know exactly what I'm talking about.

You've bullied people on other forums with your big words and convoluted explanations for way too long and I got tired of it, thats why I spoke up this time.

I can use big words too but they aren't required to prove a point or make a solid argument. I'm educated enough and I've got the testicular foritude to stand up to you and go blow for blow with you buddy.

A LOT of the big name breeders have "frankensnakes" in their racks but won't tell anyone b/c of people like you shaming them. Even Rich admitted to having hybrids at one time, so your derogatory statements have included him as well you know.

Hybrid breeders have been shunned for way too long and it's time for a change and if I and other's like me have to lead it, then so be it.

If you don't like the way this forum turned out, your welcome to excuse yourself......don't let the door hit you on the butt on the way out!

Ryan,

It is sad that you do not seem to care for the species as a whole, to maintain in your breedings, actual snake species. Hybridization destroys just that: Snake species.

After the hybridization occurs, there is no actual subspecies or un-tainted species.

If you want to be able to look back on your efforts years later, and realized that you helped destroy herp classification as a whole, so be it. It is just very sad that you focus on the now, versus the big picture.

 

[DMong]

Discern, that's your opinion and nothing more, nothing less.

Doug, the sarcasm was directed to you b/c I'm tired of your holier that thou crap.

Let me and the other hybrid supporters/breeders do what we are passionate about just the same as we let you do what you are passionate about.

Despite what you think no one needs your freakin' permission to breed snakes! :angry01:

We don't come to your "pure" forums stirring up trouble like you do on other forums.......you know exactly what I'm talking about.

You've bullied people on other forums with your big words and convoluted explanations for way too long and I got tired of it, thats why I spoke up this time.

I can use big words too but they aren't required to prove a point or make a solid argument. I'm educated enough and I've got the testicular foritude to stand up to you and go blow for blow with you buddy.

A LOT of the big name breeders have "frankensnakes" in their racks but won't tell anyone b/c of people like you shaming them. Even Rich admitted to having hybrids at one time, so your derogatory statements have included him as well you know.

Hybrid breeders have been shunned for way too long and it's time for a change and if I and other's like me have to lead it, then so be it.

If you don't like the way this forum turned out, your welcome to excuse yourself......don't let the door hit you on the butt on the way out!

I'm sick and tired of your smart-mouthed crap too Ryan. See, last time I saw, this was a cornsnake "cultivar" section, not a freakin hybrid forum pal!!!

You can go to any other forum I go to as well, but don't get pissed at me when they explain the very same facts that I have here. You just hate what I am stating because it is the truth BUDDY!!

Go put your overall's on and "snoodle" some more catfish Ryan!, at least that won't screw other people's aquarium fish collection up.. :laugh:


~Doug

 

[Clovis]

Frankly Clovis, we're talking about personal collections throughout the hobby, not what can possibly happen in the wild. Nobody is claiming there aren't some pretty hybrids either. What would make a hybrid any "stronger" genetically than a Georgia Eastern king bred to an Eastern king from New Jersey?. Those two populations never met and inbred Clovis??. Same thing with a corn from South Florida to a corn in North Carolina?. What does comparing apples to oranges have to do with anything here???. Anyone can find anything(if the wanted to that is) to "strengthen" their stock genetically. That is a bogus smokescreen that hybridizers pseudo-justify with that doesn't hold any water whatsoever. Anyone with any common sense can figure that out if they think really really hard. :laugh:

Are you saying all these hybridizers are merely trying to genetically "strengthen" their stock??? HAHAHAHAHA!!!, for chrissakes man! Am I in the twighlight zone here or something? They do it simply to see what they can produce and sell, and in the course of all of that don't give two craps about how it might affect anyone else's stuff in their collections when they go to a pet store or Joe-blow's vending table at a show. Can anyone come up with some better countering reasons other than "they want to" and that's all there is to it?..LOL!


~Doug

No, Doug. I'm not trying to say that the breeders ONLY do it to strengthen their stock, nor am I trying to imply that they're not doing it for profit, or just for the joy of seeing what comes out. I just really fail to see the harm that is causing you to be so amazingly upset about it.

Yes, genetically speaking, I do think that the stock will be more beneficially strengthened by hybridization than it would be from breeding your Virginian snake with one from New York. I fail to see how this can be viewed as a smokescreen. To draw a comparison, it's much like genetics in dog breeding. In your purebred dogs you see more and more genetic issues pop up, no matter where you outsourced your breeding to, because the breed itself is less diversified than say you'd get in a mountain cur, a breed that is intentionally bred for skills and traits rather than the breed of dog, leaving it with a longer average life span and relatively few genetic dispositions towards negative health. It's no different with reptilian genetics. Hybridizing increases the genetic diversity and counteracts the effects of line breeding that have been occurring in the pet industry for as long as we've had a pet industry.

Also, they're just really pretty. :eatpointe

 

[Clovis]

Also, for the record, I'm really not trying to be adversarial here. I posed a question and I meant it.

And another thing, I am not keen on people not disclosing that their hybrids are hybrids. One should be honest, it's good business.

 

[DMong]

No, Doug. I'm not trying to say that the breeders ONLY do it to strengthen their stock, nor am I trying to imply that they're not doing it for profit, or just for the joy of seeing what comes out. I just really fail to see the harm that is causing you to be so amazingly upset about it.

Yes, genetically speaking, I do think that the stock will be more beneficially strengthened by hybridization than it would be from breeding your Virginian snake with one from New York. I fail to see how this can be viewed as a smokescreen. To draw a comparison, it's much like genetics in dog breeding. In your purebred dogs you see more and more genetic issues pop up, no matter where you outsourced your breeding to, because the breed itself is less diversified than say you'd get in a mountain cur, a breed that is intentionally bred for skills and traits rather than the breed of dog, leaving it with a longer average life span and relatively few genetic dispositions towards negative health. It's no different with reptilian genetics. Hybridizing increases the genetic diversity and counteracts the effects of line breeding that have been occurring in the pet industry for as long as we've had a pet industry.

Also, they're just really pretty. :eatpointe

HAHAHA!!!,......DOGS???? Are you serious!??? :laugh:

Let me let you in on a little secret here Clovis, dog breeds are man-made entities, and there was only ONE original litter of any said "breed" when they were ever first originated for whatever purpose or look was intended for each type. So if any future dogs of any specific type were to be bred in the future for these intended looks and/or purposes, they would HAVE to be lin-bred (in-bred) in order to produce more. See the HUGE difference? You guys don't "HAVE" to make hybrids to keep any of the snakes going along just fine, so PLEASE stop with the insanity that doesn't make any sense or has anything whatsoever to do with the resoning behind producing man-made crosses and hybrids. It has nothing to do with anything you are trying to make a point of here. It's just grasping at straws in an attempt to "justify" the action of hybridizing. See, a corn from South Florida bred to a corn from North Carolina does NOT constitute an in-breeding, or a "wekening" of any genepool..LOL!. What that constitutes is a genetically diverse breeding of the SAME subspecies, nothing more, nothing less. Why aren't all the wild snakes all goofy and disfigured then if what you are attempting to portray is really the case? They are just as genetically strong as they could possibly be.


~Doug

 

[diamondlil]

Yes, genetically speaking, I do think that the stock will be more beneficially strengthened by hybridization than it would be from breeding your Virginian snake with one from New York. I fail to see how this can be viewed as a smokescreen. To draw a comparison, it's much like genetics in dog breeding. In your purebred dogs you see more and more genetic issues pop up, no matter where you outsourced your breeding to, because the breed itself is less diversified than say you'd get in a mountain cur, a breed that is intentionally bred for skills and traits rather than the breed of dog, leaving it with a longer average life span and relatively few genetic dispositions towards negative health. It's no different with reptilian genetics. Hybridizing increases the genetic diversity and counteracts the effects of line breeding that have been occurring in the pet industry for as long as we've had a pet industry.

This isn't a valid argument, as all domestic dogs are the same species, so crossing one breed with another isn't hybridisation at all. In fact the correct analogy to mixing dog breeds would be with crossing different locality snakes of the same species.

 

[Clovis]

So, back when Rosy Corns were P. g. rosaceae, if they were bred with P. g. g., then those offspring would have been hybrids, but now that Rosy has been re-taxonomized and is a P. g. g., it is okay to breed them together.

So, an old cross would be hybrid stock, but a new cross would not be.

Alternately, P. g. slowinski, now, if bred to P. g. g. , produces hybrids, but 15 years ago when it was still a P. g. g., the breedings of that with other P. g. g. would not be hybrids.

Right?

You know, that change of taxidermy really through me off. Until I joined this forum most of the lit I was reading was from before the change. I kept wondering why people were insisting that corn snakes weren't rat snakes. (I still do wonder this, as a keeper of both Corns and Rats, and observing the amazing similarities.)

 

[DMong]

This isn't a valid argument, as all domestic dogs are the same species, so crossing one breed with another isn't hybridisation at all. In fact the correct analogy to mixing dog breeds would be with crossing different locality snakes of the same species.

So very true. ALL dog breeds originated from one single source, and are the very SAME species. The many different pure breeds produced are simply selectively bred from any types they chose for whastever trait(s) someone wants to perpetuate. ...........Well said!


~Doug

 

[Ryan Beatty]

Discern, I do maintain "actual" species in my collection. As I stated earlier MOST of my collection is composed of "actual" species so your argument falls flat there.

Doug, you and your buddies on the other forums are stating your OPINIONS nothing more.

Just b/c I'm from Mississippi does not mean I wear overalls and go "noodling for cats". I don't even own a pair of overalls and I think people that do noodle don't care for their fingers much considering there could be a snapping turtle in one of those holes they blindly stick their hands in.

I can use a rod and reel perfectly fine thank you.

Since the far majority of the hybrids discussed hear are CORN hybrids they belong in a CORN forum. If the powers that be felt this didn't belong here they would have moved it.

It's 3 am here, I have to get some rest. I have "actual snakes" to breed tomorrow as well as rodents to tend to.

I'll be glad to continue this tomorrow.

Good night.

 

[Clovis]

This isn't a valid argument, as all domestic dogs are the same species, so crossing one breed with another isn't hybridisation at all. In fact the correct analogy to mixing dog breeds would be with crossing different locality snakes of the same species.

Thank you for responding to my post with the same conclusion as the former poster, but in a far more civilized and respectful manner. I can accept that the analogy doesn't work and the reasoning behind it. Again, Thank you.

 

[SnakeAround]

It is no use Ryan, Doug truly does not understand the difference between his opinion an the truth. I gave up on that, even though I've got quite a stamina when it comes to discussing stuff. We've not come any further throughout all these pages.

 

[Clovis]

HAHAHA!!!,......DOGS???? Are you serious!??? :laugh:

Let me let you in on a little secret here Clovis, dog breeds are man-made entities, and there was only ONE original litter of any said "breed" when they were ever first originated for whatever purpose or look was intended for each type. So if any future dogs of any specific type were to be bred in the future for these intended looks and/or purposes, they would HAVE to be lin-bred (in-bred) in order to produce more. See the HUGE difference? You guys don't "HAVE" to make hybrids to keep any of the snakes going along just fine, so PLEASE stop with the insanity that doesn't make any sense or has anything whatsoever to do with the resoning behind producing man-made crosses and hybrids. It has nothing to do with anything you are trying to make a point of here. It's just grasping at straws in an attempt to "justify" the action of hybridizing. See, a corn from South Florida bred to a corn from North Carolina does NOT constitute an in-breeding, or a "wekening" of any genepool..LOL!. What that constitutes is a genetically diverse breeding of the SAME subspecies, nothing more, nothing less. Why aren't all the wild snakes all goofy and disfigured then if what you are attempting to portray is really the case? They are just as genetically strong as they could possibly be.


~Doug

No, I don't think I will stop, Doug. I will change my direction, instead, but not just now. Instead, I'll simply ask if you'll be so kind as to stop demeaning me before I continue.

I still fail to see how any of it is "insanity" or "grasping at straws." I'll also state again I'm not looking to "justify" anything, as I fail to see why it's wrong to begin with, and therefore requires no "justification." I'm simply attempting to have a discussion, one that I would like to be enlightening, thought provoking, and educational. Instead what I'm getting is mocked, which is not why I joined the conversation, nor is it why I joined this forum.

That said, I'll continue, starting by saying that not once did I say that breeding a North Carolina to a Florida (or any such geographical combination) would weaken the line, so you shouldn't be putting it in quotations, as it's not a quote. No, it wouldn't weaken the line, and to imply such a thing WOULD be insanity. I did, however, say that hybridizing would be "more beneficially strengthened" (which IS a quote, see, and that's why it's in quotation marks) from what I can deduce with my admittedly limited understanding of genetics. I don't start microbiology or genetics for 2 more years, so I won't pretend I'm some expert.

 

[Clovis]

It is no use Ryan, Doug truly does not understand the difference between his opinion an the truth. I gave up on that, even though I've got quite a stamina when it comes to discussing stuff. We've not come any further throughout all these pages.

Though this wasn't addressed to me, I'd like to say that really that's why I attempted to join the conversation. I was reading the last few pages,... which said the same thing over and over again.. and I was reading the start... which was full of a lot of personal attacks. I thought maybe just posing a question might get a decent, civilized discussion going.

 

[DMong]

No, I don't think I will stop, Doug. I will change my direction, instead, but not just now. Instead, I'll simply ask if you'll be so kind as to stop demeaning me before I continue.

I still fail to see how any of it is "insanity" or "grasping at straws." I'll also state again I'm not looking to "justify" anything, as I fail to see why it's wrong to begin with, and therefore requires no "justification." I'm simply attempting to have a discussion, one that I would like to be enlightening, thought provoking, and educational. Instead what I'm getting is mocked, which is not why I joined the conversation, nor is it why I joined this forum.

That said, I'll continue, starting by saying that not once did I say that breeding a North Carolina to a Florida (or any such geographical combination) would weaken the line, so you shouldn't be putting it in quotations, as it's not a quote. No, it wouldn't weaken the line, and to imply such a thing WOULD be insanity. I did, however, say that hybridizing would be "more beneficially strengthened" (which IS a quote, see, and that's why it's in quotation marks) from what I can deduce with my admittedly limited understanding of genetics. I don't start microbiology or genetics for 2 more years, so I won't pretend I'm some expert.

Okay Clovis. You're right, to have a conversation or exchange of ideas it takes someone on the other end to also understand. So I won't bother anymore unless somone chimes in with more smart comments directed to me for stating some facts.

I will make one last suggestion though, and that is if you want to impress the biology professor, don't say "taxidermy" is the scientific classification of living organisms (i.e. plants and animals), say "taxonomy" instead :laugh:

I couldn't help it, and that is indeed a quote you made. I'm not a horrible person at all, I just know a few things from my lengthy 46 years of snake keeping, researching, and studying them, that's all.

So........don't hate, appreciate! or don't hate the playa, .....hate the game!


~Doug :wavey:

 

[SnakeAround]

Clovis, I have asked some questions which never got answered, like 'can you explain to me why I'm greedy, uneducated and lazy for breeding hybrids. I loose money on it, I have to clean up after my hybrids like I have to after any pure species.... Or, what is the problem with a relatively muddy population of hobby snakes if the breeders and keepers in the market where that population belongs to do not care to clean it up to begin with?' Doug and another member on the same page kept on telling they are not afraid for their own collections and they know where to go for pure stuff for their entire life, further I was told that people who do not care as much about the muddying are a minority except on this forum....so, I still do not see how it would threaten the existence of the pure snakes they are talking about. I never got any real answer, but I was told if I do not understand that, I am not a professional or it to dumb to understand or something in the same idea.

Another question also came to my mind over the last few days. I have understood that Doug and or the other member that now left the discussion (Gerards) breed rare species and are afraid to loose these in the cb population. I do wonder why they think it is a good idea to breed those to begin with if not for a repopulation project? Why not just go out in the wild to see them, instead catching some to breed in captivity? I do assume not only one couple was caught, that would create a nasty pool of inbred snakes, right? I guess they do it just for their own likes.... does it do any good to the species in the wild? How noble is that?

 

[Clovis]

Okay Clovis. You're right, to have a conversation or exchange of ideas it takes someone on the other end to also understand. So I won't bother anymore unless somone chimes in with more smart comments directed to me for stating some facts.

I will make one last suggestion though, and that is if you want to impress the biology professor, don't say "taxidermy" is the scientific classification of living organisms (i.e. plants and animals), say "taxonomy" instead :laugh:

I couldn't help it, and that is indeed a quote you made. I'm not a horrible person at all, I just know a few things from my lengthy 46 years of snake keeping, researching, and studying them, that's all.

So........don't hate, appreciate! or don't hate the playa, .....hate the game!


~Doug :wavey:

Doug, What I would appreciate is some discussion. I'm not hating the playa, nor the game, I'm hating that I'm not actually being conversed with like a human being, attempting to bloody well learn something, I'm being mocked as if I were on a playground somewhere. Thank you for the taxonomy correction, btw. It's late and I'm mixing up my four syllable words. I'd appreciate the insight of a person with 46 years of snake keeping, researching, and study... particularly if said individual would speak to me like an adult in a civilized fashion, and in the spirit of exchanging ideas rather than a spoiled, opinionated child who, rather than attempting some sort of refutation with data collected in his 46 years of study, instead mocks, laughs, and insults those he's speaking to.

 

[Clovis]

Clovis, I have asked some questions which never got answered, like 'can you explain to me why I'm greedy, uneducated and lazy for breeding hybrids. I loose money on it, I have to clean up after my hybrids like I have to after any pure species.... Or, what is the problem with a relatively muddy population of hobby snakes if the breeders and keepers in the market where that population belongs to do not care to clean it up to begin with?' Doug and another member on the same page kept on telling they are not afraid for their own collections and they know where to go for pure stuff for their entire life, further I was told that people who do not care as much about the muddying are a minority except on this forum....so, I still do not see how it would threaten the existence of the pure snakes they are talking about. I never got any real answer, but I was told if I do not understand that, I am not a professional or it to dumb to understand or something in the same idea.

Another question also came to my mind over the last few days. I have understood that Doug and or the other member that now left the discussion (Gerards) breed rare species and are afraid to loose these in the cb population. I do wonder why they think it is a good idea to breed those to begin with if not for a repopulation project? Why not just go out in the wild to see them, instead catching some to breed in captivity? I do assume not only one couple was caught, that would create a nasty pool of inbred snakes, right? I guess they do it just for their own likes.... does it do any good to the species in the wild? How noble is that?

Those are some viable questions I'd like to hear answers to as well. It's a shame this thread seems to have devolved to what it is right now, and apparently did so long before I got here to ask anything. Ah, well. Better luck in the future for both of us I suppose?

 

[SnakeAround]

Well, not with the members of the 'opposite party' in this thread I think I'm happy to see some people with the same opinion about what is going on in this thread. I was close to thinking that I must be mistaken in what is an opinion and what is truth and probably am not as intelligent as I think I am but fortunately I am not I did get some reps, which I do want to thank people for, but support in public does feel good too, thanks!

 

[Carinata]

The radio show I now co-host, is doing a segment on Hybrids very soon, Ryan or Doug, would you like to come on and explain your respective sides of the arguments? We'd love to have you!

 

[punky_jen]

The radio show I now co-host, is doing a segment on Hybrids very soon, Ryan or Doug, would you like to come on and explain your respective sides of the arguments? We'd love to have you!

Is this radio show online too? Id like to check it out.

As for this 'pure breed' stuff... does it actually matter? So long as the snakes are healthy? It all sounds a bit Nazi-ish to me, pure blood that and hybrid this being labeled as negative. Yes some breeders will not tell you everything behind some genetics, so make sure your buying from someone your trust, but over all if it doesn't turn out to be exactly what you wanted, at least it is healthy.