stupid breeders why cant you just leave things be

[Carinata]

Yup! Alabamaherpradio.com I'm the co-host, (as of last night). I'm not from Alabama, but the name may change soon!

 

[Outcast]

I thought that true Hybrids produced baby's that could not reproduce, with few exceptions... Wouldn't these be better called intergrades?

 

[Kevin S.]

Doug, I've generally enjoyed interacting with you online in the past-shame I can't say the same right now though. Since you believe ignorance to be the reason some of us support hybrids, I'd just like to state for the record that I have a master's in biology (obtained in a herp natural history lab). So I can say with some confidence that my understanding of these issues is just fine. You keep advocating for pure species and subspecies-that's why your argument is inherently flawed. There is no universal agreement in the scientific community on just what a species is and most don't even view subspecies as a valid concept (though I personally like it).

Everyone is quick to shoot down the dog comparisons since they are the same species. That's just a testament to the flaws of our taxonomic system-a great dane and chihuahua are the same species, but a black rat snake is a different species depending on which side of the river you find it. That just shows the glaring lack of objectivity that no one acknowledges in taxonomy.

Putting that aside, you can certainly split snakes into ever more exclusive groups using a variety of criteria. It just depends on how finely you want to split hairs. If you want to keep only the most exclusively untainted Hondurans from original imports, more power to you. Just because you chase that idea of "purity" so fervently doesn't mean the rest of the hobby as a whole shares your views or should change its standards to accomodate you though. At the end of the day, we all keep snakes in boxes-if you want yours to look as indistinguishable from an import as possible, that's fine, but that doesn't make your collection morally superior to one with characteristics not found in wild snakes.

There's room for purists and hybridizers to coexist in this hobby. You just wouldn't know it judging from the frequent attacks from the vocal minority of ultra purists. Obviously you disagree and nothing I say will change your mind, but hopefully we can get this back on a civil track.

 

[SnakeAround]

I thought that true Hybrids produced baby's that could not reproduce, with few exceptions... Wouldn't these be better called intergrades?

Even on the defininition of the word hybrid there are different opinions. I am used to the definition that intergrades are crosses between subspecies, and hybrids between species or less close animals (like p. kisatchie x p. guttatus or corn x king). Others say intergrades are naturally occuring crosses, hybrids are man made crosses. You just introduced one I have not heard of before Since for example corn x king crosses are fertile, and many others I have seen examples of, I do not think one can say in general that hybrids are not fertile.

 

[Tara80]

Doug, you should learn to debate in a civil manner. I'm sure you've got some intelligent points to make but you lose people's attention and any edge you have as soon as you start being rude, which you have in almost every post. In all honesty, I stopped reading anything you had to say a few pages back as it predominantly consists of antagonizing people who do not agree with you.
I should also point out that I too am not a 'stupid person'.

Everyone is quick to shoot down the dog comparisons since they are the same species. That's just a testament to the flaws of our taxonomic system-a great dane and chihuahua are the same species, but a black rat snake is a different species depending on which side of the river you find it. That just shows the glaring lack of objectivity that no one acknowledges in taxonomy.

Thank you Kevin. As I've read through this, that's exactly what's been going through my mind. This entire debate is based off of opinion as to how individual specimen should be viewed, considered and maintained. Sure, we don't want to ruin the work nature has accomplished but I don't think anyone here has been advocating that.
Here's an interesting write up on how some kingsnakes evolved/adapted:
http://163.238.8.180/~fburbrink/Research/Publications/Pyron_Burbrink_2009e.pdf
All Colubridae were one and the same at one point (separated as continents drifted) and formed separate subfamilies based on climate/environment. The proof is in the pudding.

 

[Rich Z]

SPECIES: the major subdivision of a genus or subgenus, regarded as the basic category of biological classification, composed of related individuals that resemble one another, are able to breed among themselves, but are not able to breed with members of another species.

GENERA: the usual major subdivision of a family or subfamily in the classification of organisms, usually consisting of more than one species.

HYBRID: the offspring of two animals or plants of different breeds, varieties, species, or genera, especially as produced through human manipulation for specific genetic characteristics.

As was mentioned earlier, the taxonomic definitions are just screwy, in that they really just do not make any sense in practicality. The definition of a species states that one species CANNOT (not WILL NOT) breed with another species. Yet what is the definition of a "hybrid"? How could both statements be true? How can a *true* hybrid be produced by breeding different species together if by definition that cannot happen?

And certainly if viable offspring are produced in colubrid snakes that are being interbred not only between separate DEFINED species, but also across several genera, well, what does this say about our understanding of the specific classifications of colubrid snakes, much less our understanding of what a hybrid actually is? Are WE making an arbitrary definition of a "hybrid" as a pair of animals that do not normally breed together because of lack of opportunity and exposure (such as a California king breeding with an Eastern king) because they ranges do not overlap and nothing else?

And this is something for people to get into heated arguments over? Sheesh....

 

[DMong]

Clovis, I have asked some questions which never got answered, like 'can you explain to me why I'm greedy, uneducated and lazy for breeding hybrids. I loose money on it, I have to clean up after my hybrids like I have to after any pure species.... Or, what is the problem with a relatively muddy population of hobby snakes if the breeders and keepers in the market where that population belongs to do not care to clean it up to begin with?' Doug and another member on the same page kept on telling they are not afraid for their own collections and they know where to go for pure stuff for their entire life, further I was told that people who do not care as much about the muddying are a minority except on this forum....so, I still do not see how it would threaten the existence of the pure snakes they are talking about. I never got any real answer, but I was told if I do not understand that, I am not a professional or it to dumb to understand or something in the same idea.

Another question also came to my mind over the last few days. I have understood that Doug and or the other member that now left the discussion (Gerards) breed rare species and are afraid to loose these in the cb population. I do wonder why they think it is a good idea to breed those to begin with if not for a repopulation project? Why not just go out in the wild to see them, instead catching some to breed in captivity? I do assume not only one couple was caught, that would create a nasty pool of inbred snakes, right? I guess they do it just for their own likes.... does it do any good to the species in the wild? How noble is that?

Well then here's the answer in very plain English. The genuine species and subspecies only get harder and harder to find in mainstream captive collections. All of this has NOTHING to do with repopulating wild populations. It has to much more to dowith hybridizer's intentionally UN-populating any real species and subspecies into the hobby's mainstream of snakes that does nothing but perpetuate a "domino-effect" for more of the same!........See the logic??????????????

of course not!........that's the entire problem :noevil:


~Doug

 

[RobbiesCornField]

Well then here's the answer in very plain English. The genuine species and subspecies only get harder and harder to find in mainstream captive collections. All of this has NOTHING to do with repopulating wild populations. It has to much more to dowith hybridizer's intentionally UN-populating any real species and subspecies into the hobby's mainstream of snakes that does nothing but perpetuate a "domino-effect" for more of the same!........See the logic??????????????

of course not!........that's the entire problem :noevil:


~Doug

Well hi there, Pot! Have you met Kettle?
You have got to be the most condescending and pretentious, yet intensely impassioned person in this entire thread.
I do admire your zeal and vigor with which you attempt to convey your ideals. However, it seems rather in vain, due to the abrasive nature of every single post in this thread. As someone already mentioned earlier, people have stopped reading your posts because it's the same exact post over and over and over again with different wording and new insults and cheap shots thrown in.

Now to respond to the guts of your post in a way I hope you find worthy of a response. Not that anything I say or do needs to be validated by you or your high horse that you've beaten to death.

As long as there are purists in this hobby, "pure" stock will always be found. *Pure is only in quotations because of the possible for wild intergrades to have been captured and unintentionally introduced into that blood line.* There will also be those who choose to hybridize. I'm sure that someone with as much experience as yourself has quite the trained eye, and would be able to spot a hybrid. So why are you coming on here and yelling at the people who, while perpetuating hybrids, are also being responsible and labeling them as such? If there were more hybridizers like this in the hobby, there wouldn't be the shrouds of mystery behind new morphs. As you've said, we're not restocking the wild population. If you don't like hybrids, don't buy them. If you have a problem with a breeder who knowingly produces hybrids but doesn't always mark them as such, don't buy from them. The purity of your collection only matters to you or your peers in the purist community. Personally, I'm a fan of (clearly marked) hybrids, as some beautiful animals have resulted from hybrid/intergrade pairings. If I were to breed hybrids, the buyer would have full disclosure of the animals parentage at the time of sale. Does that make me a horrible person? :shrugs:

 

[GillianC]

I kind of wanted to stay out of this debate, but considering how inflammatory some of the comments are, it's difficult to keep one's mouth shut. Having said that, I don't want to advocate for either side.

Here's a comparison, which may not be entirely valid, but is also something to think about: fisheries vs. captive breeding of snakes. The fish bred and produced in hatcheries are phenotypically different from the wild stocks that the initial fish came from. That problem becomes amplified as inbreeding among fishery stocks continue, and they are no longer really genetically the same. What I'm trying to point out is that once you take an animal from the environment its adapted to and breed it under entirely different conditions for many generations, the subsequent progeny may look the same, but aren't really genetically the same.

Breeding snakes in captivity muddied the waters to begin with, but if there are people in the hobby who are purists now, then there will be purists in the future. The unfortunate truth is that there are a lot of people who own snakes who also know nothing about them. I've come across too many Kijiji ads where people advertised snakes that were blatantly mislabeled (e.g. "red" ball python - pictures showed a blood python), and seen too many people at shows who haphazardly buy big constrictors despite not really knowing how dangerous they can be. The other problem is that snakes are easy to accidentally breed, for those people who don't keep them in the proper conditions. I certainly don't think all, or even most of the people in the hobby are like that, but it doesn't change the fact that stupid people exist.

This is an incredibly convoluted topic. There will always be people advocating for the extremes, and that's fine. Let's just leave each to his own - as long as reputable breeders label accurately, I don't know that there's much else that can be done to regulate hybrids.

Also, another thought: species are constantly being reorganized into different groups and clades as different relationships (genetic or otherwise) are discovered.

 

[DMong]

Well hi there, Pot! Have you met Kettle?
You have got to be the most condescending and pretentious, yet intensely impassioned person in this entire thread.
I do admire your zeal and vigor with which you attempt to convey your ideals. However, it seems rather in vain, due to the abrasive nature of every single post in this thread. As someone already mentioned earlier, people have stopped reading your posts because it's the same exact post over and over and over again with different wording and new insults and cheap shots thrown in.

Now to respond to the guts of your post in a way I hope you find worthy of a response. Not that anything I say or do needs to be validated by you or your high horse that you've beaten to death.

As long as there are purists in this hobby, "pure" stock will always be found. *Pure is only in quotations because of the possible for wild intergrades to have been captured and unintentionally introduced into that blood line.* There will also be those who choose to hybridize. I'm sure that someone with as much experience as yourself has quite the trained eye, and would be able to spot a hybrid. So why are you coming on here and yelling at the people who, while perpetuating hybrids, are also being responsible and labeling them as such? If there were more hybridizers like this in the hobby, there wouldn't be the shrouds of mystery behind new morphs. As you've said, we're not restocking the wild population. If you don't like hybrids, don't buy them. If you have a problem with a breeder who knowingly produces hybrids but doesn't always mark them as such, don't buy from them. The purity of your collection only matters to you or your peers in the purist community. Personally, I'm a fan of (clearly marked) hybrids, as some beautiful animals have resulted from hybrid/intergrade pairings. If I were to breed hybrids, the buyer would have full disclosure of the animals parentage at the time of sale. Does that make me a horrible person? :shrugs:

You still don't get it ANY of this.......the sheer irony is that none of what you are saying and re-hashing has anything to do with the points I have been "attempting" to make this ENTIRE time. It's a futile effort over here, and you guys are obviously incapable of coprehending any of the true scenarios that go on constantly because of this. That is extremely obvious and I knew it would basically be this way here (very unfortunate indeed).

Anyway, you can scratch any of those locality-specific aberrant corn offspring originating from outside of Everglades National Park off of your future "want" list Robbie if they prove to be inherant. :wavey:


~Doug

 

[Christen]

Anyway, you can scratch any of those locality-specific aberrant corn offspring originating from outside of Everglades National Park off of your future "want" list Robbie if they prove to be inherant. :wavey:


~Doug

Really? Doesn't this seem a little childish to you? If you don't want to sell to Robbie that is fine, but really, grow up.

 

[DMong]

Really? Doesn't this seem a little childish to you? If you don't want to sell to Robbie that is fine, but really, grow up.

No, it only seems very appropriate in this situation as a matter of fact. I'd hate for those to immediately fall into the wrong hands right off the bat. The idea isn't for me to see how fast they can become hybridized.

If you cannot understand this, You grow up!


~Doug

 

[Clovis]

Yeah, I think I'm done here.

Thank you to everyone who attempted reasoned discussion.

 

[DMong]

Yeah, I think I'm done here.

Thank you to everyone who attempted reasoned discussion.

Your very welcome Clovis


~Doug

 

[Christen]

I can understand your point. However my point is you are doing nothing but looking like a jerk by posting that in a thread. You have your opinion and you chose not to sell to Robbie. We all have the right to chose who we sell our snakes to. I would be honored to have Robbie own one of my snakes because I know that it would be a wonderful home.

We all have our opinions on hybrids. Some like them and some don't but nasty comments like that don't need to be made because it doesn't prove your point or feeling on the subject.

 

[DMong]

I can understand your point. However my point is you are doing nothing but looking like a jerk by posting that in a thread. You have your opinion and you chose not to sell to Robbie. We all have the right to chose who we sell our snakes to. I would be honored to have Robbie own one of my snakes because I know that it would be a wonderful home.

We all have our opinions on hybrids. Some like them and some don't but nasty comments like that don't need to be made because it doesn't prove your point or feeling on the subject.

That's fine. He can hybridize your snakes then, not mine.


~Doug

 

[GillianC]

That's fine. He can hybridize your snakes then, not mine.


~Doug

You know what I find ironic? That you go on about how no one gets your point, yet you seem to repeatedly ignore everyone when they try to help you find a more constructive way to get it across.

 

[Ryan Beatty]

I gave up on Doug a long time ago............:dunce:

Rich, concerning the definition of species, I couldn't have said it better myself. Thank you.

 

[Christen]

You know what I find ironic? That you go on about how no one gets your point, yet you seem to repeatedly ignore everyone when they try to help you find a more constructive way to get it across.

You are so right. lol I just went back and read this thread in it's entirety and my comments were a complete waste of my time. Sad part is he doesn't even know how I feel. I could 100% agree with him but he isn't even able to listen and take my points into consideration because he is in defense mode.

 

[DMong]

You know what I find ironic? That you go on about how no one gets your point, yet you seem to repeatedly ignore everyone when they try to help you find a more constructive way to get it across.

Look, isn't it already quite obvious that no matter how it is put, several of these people will NEVER acknowledge a single word of it? What I am pointing out here that happens all the time goes absolutely and TOTALLY against the very grain of their personal agendas. Saying they realize any of this is virtually admitting to being a huge part of the problem I'm referring to. It's far esier to simply deny this, especially when there are others sharing the same agenda which is dispersing more numbers of un-discernable crosses and hybrids throuout the hobby.

I have another good question for Ryan and anyone else.......what exactly do all of you do with all of the hybrid "bi-product" that you produce that looks extremely similar to an authentic subspecies of snake???

Because I see known hybrid stuff all the time that even a taxonomist would assume is the real McCoy, but is not. Just one recent example would be a hybrid that looked IDENTICLE in every single meristic feature to a wild-caught Newport-Long Beach Cal. king, only this snake had 25% Pueblan milk in it's lineage as well. What do you suppose that would even be bred with???Certainly not someone's genuine Ca. king they had later doen the road,..huh? Then the person(s) down the line when their clutches were poppng out odd traits from the Pueblan milk influence, they would be jumping up with joy "thinking" they produced a new "cool" morph for the Cal. king hobby. Then when it gets traced back, it is found out that it is nothing more than one of Ryan Beatty's, Davey Vickers, or any of the other countless hybdrizers b-product snakes that didn't look so different and "exciting"

Exactly how sweet and friendly do you want me to put this when it is a very ugly and real issue? I don't intend to sugar-coat the reality of any of this, that is for the hybridizers to do, not me. The majority of this entire thread is all sugar-coating, and it's all too obvious. It's all exactly as I expected it to be too, so don't think I am at all surprised to hear the silly feed-back of denial and shifting this to a "Doug is a mean, arrogant, disrespectful person" when in fact I am a VERY respectful person. And I clearly have far more respect for some of the snakes than I do for some of the people, and make no mistake about that.

Like I said before, when enough people don't know, or care enough to know, this is what always happens, and it's just plain sad as hell to see so many careless people.

Anyway, where are everyone's countless hybrid "bi-products" that don't look so "cool" and unique that virtually resemble any number of genuine subspecies of snake. Honest labeling means nothing whatsoever because down the line they always are identified and later bred by most as what they tend to best represent at any given point down the road. Someone tell me this isn't so?..............anyone! :laugh:


~Doug