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stupid breeders why cant you just leave things be

I'm going to retract the dunce smiley.

Doug is not a dunce, he has a vast knowledge of some species that I have never worked with. Obviously he is an intelligent man but he just doesn't get what we are trying to convey to him.
 
Ryan Beatty said:
I'm going to retract the dunce smiley.

Doug is not a dunce, he has a vast knowledge of some species that I have never worked with. Obviously he is an intelligent man but he just doesn't get what we are trying to convey to him.
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He does, it might not matter in corn snakes because it's one species with a million morphs. Like it's been said, there always going to be people who don't care and do what ever is in their interests. If some people see this, understand and apply the measures to help prevent the introduction of their hybrids into natural collections, it's worth it. It's about helping each other countinue what we love to do, and protect captive populations of natural species. Turtles are cooler than corns anyway.......lol!
 
Doug, it is so easy to conclude that we just do not want to admit it since than we would admit to be part of it. A cheap way out it is, nothing more. I do realize that in your eyes I am part of your problem, but since you and other pure species breeders are very well able to protect your stock and hence provide those species to others in the future, WHAT IS THE PROBLEM? Are you gonna worry about a train that runs late that is not even going in the same direction or on the same track as yours, because it passes through the same station? Guess not... And what if you are so kind to go tell its passengers and they do not care? I think most people see the analogy with the situation here. You tell the passengers they have a problem even if they do not care about running late. You tell them they should care because it runs through the same station as yours. They keep asking how their train would interfere with yours, because it is on another track in another direction. You tell them if they do not see the problem they are not respectful, only think about themselves... If you do not get it this way, I do stop trying...
 
SnakeAround said:
Doug, it is so easy to conclude that we just do not want to admit it since than we would admit to be part of it. A cheap way out it is, nothing more. I do realize that in your eyes I am part of your problem, but since you and other pure species breeders are very well able to protect your stock and hence provide those species to others in the future, WHAT IS THE PROBLEM? Are you gonna worry about a train that runs late that is not even going in the same direction or on the same track as yours, because it passes through the same station? Guess not... And what if you are so kind to go tell its passengers and they do not care? I think most people see the analogy with the situation here. You tell the passengers they have a problem even if they do not care about running late. You tell them they should care because it runs through the same station as yours. They keep asking how their train would interfere with yours, because it is on another track in another direction. You tell them if they do not see the problem they are not respectful, only think about themselves... If you do not get it this way, I do stop trying...
Click to expand...

It's not about us, we know. It is about the people that are learning and don't know. Your comparison is not even close, I'm sorry your having trouble understanding the problem.
 
SnakeAround said:
Doug, it is so easy to conclude that we just do not want to admit it since than we would admit to be part of it. A cheap way out it is, nothing more. I do realize that in your eyes I am part of your problem, but since you and other pure species breeders are very well able to protect your stock and hence provide those species to others in the future, WHAT IS THE PROBLEM? Are you gonna worry about a train that runs late that is not even going in the same direction or on the same track as yours, because it passes through the same station? Guess not... And what if you are so kind to go tell its passengers and they do not care? I think most people see the analogy with the situation here. You tell the passengers they have a problem even if they do not care about running late. You tell them they should care because it runs through the same station as yours. They keep asking how their train would interfere with yours, because it is on another track in another direction. You tell them if they do not see the problem they are not respectful, only think about themselves... If you do not get it this way, I do stop trying...
Click to expand...


ummm, only difference being there is the train nor the people on the train are purposely tainting other people's mainstream snake collections that most of the hobbyists are buying and breeding more of. The train is not producing more problems by the folds every single year. :headbang:

If ALL the trains started carelessly going in the opposite direction and disrupting more people's work or purpose, then it might matter some. Until then, you abstract train analogy for illustrating this particular issue is more like comparing a bowling ball to a fishing pole.

The bottom line that you are still failing to understand is that making more and more and more of them DOES affect others in the same hobby negatively. It has to do with "trickle affect", and in more recent years has become more of a "flooding" affect.

Anyway, thanks for the train analogy. I'm at least very glad that trains don't physically reproduce to make more little trains that go out and start traveling in the opposite direction then make plenty more,...and on, and on, and on........ :wavey:


~Doug
 
Gerards said:
I'm sorry your having trouble understanding the problem.
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:laugh: Everyone's having such a hard time understanding this problem but you. It's great that you guys are aware that herpetoculture is doomed as we know it though. After all, there is a small chance that someone somewhere will hatch some eggs and not get what they expect because one of the parents isn't of the highest pedigree. What then? Well, clearly the world will end as you know it. Then you can not only say you told us so, but you can point to a few hundred posts here that say the same thing and say you told us hundreds of times. Brilliant!

Seriously, I guess I'll have to spell this out very plainly. WORST CASE SCENARIO someone breeds 2 corns and finds out "uh oh, one of the parents might have had some kingsnake influence." This is the worst case scenario, so that person doesn't admit this and all sells them all as pure corns. The buyers are too stupid to realize they got 88% cornsnakes, 12% kingsnakes (remember, worst case). Seeing them as corns, they breed them to more corns. Now all of these offspring look like corns, but (gasp) they're actually 6.5% kingsnake! As their offspring make their way out into other collections, this trend continues until every corn in America is 0.0000023% kingsnake! The worst part is, no one knows about it because they all look and act just like "pure" corns. Oh the horror. :sobstory:
 
Because of personal experiance I do tend to side with Doug on this issue. Back in 1997 I was at a fundraiser dinner for my local herp club. I ended up winning a beautiful yearling female cornsnake. I named her Kate and I still have her. I happily bred her for 3 or 4 years with most of her babies going to several pet shops in the state. Years later I found out that she was a creamsicle bi product.
So I unknowingly tainted who knows how many future snakes in my area.

I still have Kate (well she is being taken care of by a friend because I'm moving out of state), but as soon as I found out what I did I never bred her again.

Until that happened, I never gave hybrids a second thought, but you can bet your bippy I have an opinion now......
 
Kevin S. said:
:laugh: Everyone's having such a hard time understanding this problem but you. It's great that you guys are aware that herpetoculture is doomed as we know it though. After all, there is a small chance that someone somewhere will hatch some eggs and not get what they expect because one of the parents isn't of the highest pedigree. What then? Well, clearly the world will end as you know it. Then you can not only say you told us so, but you can point to a few hundred posts here that say the same thing and say you told us hundreds of times. Brilliant!

Seriously, I guess I'll have to spell this out very plainly. WORST CASE SCENARIO someone breeds 2 corns and finds out "uh oh, one of the parents might have had some kingsnake influence." This is the worst case scenario, so that person doesn't admit this and all sells them all as pure corns. The buyers are too stupid to realize they got 88% cornsnakes, 12% kingsnakes (remember, worst case). Seeing them as corns, they breed them to more corns. Now all of these offspring look like corns, but (gasp) they're actually 6.5% kingsnake! As their offspring make their way out into other collections, this trend continues until every corn in America is 0.0000023% kingsnake! The worst part is, no one knows about it because they all look and act just like "pure" corns. Oh the horror. :sobstory:
Click to expand...

Why do you feel the need to defend yourself if it's not a big deal? If it didn't matter you could just not reply to this. You don't care about animals, you care about selling them. What's doomed? You choose to sell hybrids, that's your choice. For something that's not a issue, you seem threatened by people talking bad about it. Why?
 
Gerards, who does feel threatened in this thread? I think none but you and Doug... Most others are just trying to get through that very thick concrete layer that is keeping you from understanding our points. Or to begin with our questions.

I'd love to hear who understood my train analogy? And who not... If most do not I 'll have to admit to be a non educated, lazy, careless, stupid ruiner of all pure snakes out there...
 
SnakeAround said:
Gerards, who does feel threatened in this thread? I think none but you and Doug... Most others are just trying to get through that very thick concrete layer that is keeping you from understanding our points. Or to begin with our questions.

I'd love to hear who understood my train analogy? And who not... If most do not I 'll have to admit to be a non educated, lazy, careless, stupid ruiner of all pure snakes out there...
Click to expand...

What's your point? You are not worried about anything. It's not about pure, it's about natural. I'm not trying to get through to you, it's not possible. You just keep defending something that's not a big deal. I didn't call you those things this time, you did.
 
Gerards said:
Why do you feel the need to defend yourself if it's not a big deal? If it didn't matter you could just not reply to this. You don't care about animals, you care about selling them. What's doomed? You choose to sell hybrids, that's your choice. For something that's not a issue, you seem threatened by people talking bad about it. Why?
Click to expand...

That's weird that I care so much about selling them considering I've never bred a hybrid in my life. Double check your facts if you're going to be so sure of yourself. It would fit nicely into your argument if you could stereotype me as a money-hungry miscreant who doesn't care about snakes, but then again a lot of things don't exactly jive with your argument. I care because I haven't seen your camp make a valid point yet and if you're beaten over the head with it enough, you might start to realize that (fat chance, I know).

I have kept a few hybrids in the past and I enjoy them, so I don't want to see your ignorance perpetuated as holier-than-thou "fact" if it interferes with other people enjoying them. Since you said pages ago that you weren't here to change anyone's mind, I have to wonder why are you still posting here? It should be pretty clear to everyone who has the agenda here.

Gerards said:
You don't care about animals, you care about selling them.
Click to expand...

I have to admit, that one irked me for a minute. I realized it shouldn't coming from you though. Jumping to conclusions without evidence seems to be par for the course.
 
Just gonna throw this out there.

"In the study of sexually reproducing organisms, where genetic material is shared through the process of reproduction, the ability of two organisms to interbreed and produce fertile offspring of both sexes is generally accepted as a simple indicator that the organisms share enough genes to be considered members of the same species. Thus a "species" is a group of interbreeding organisms.

This definition can be extended to say that a species is a group of organisms that could potentially interbreed – fish could still be classed as the same species even if they live in different lakes, as long as they could still interbreed were they ever to come into contact with each other. "


And suggest that perhaps we are currently working with inaccurate species classifications for those in question, based on the fact that they can and do interbreed in the wild and the offspring are clearly viable. In which case we are looking at subspecies and their interbreeding making the dog breed comparison relevant.

I understand both sides of the pure breed dogs/snake arguments. I think both are valid OPINIONS, which have some scientific backing (as is the previous paragraph)

Can't we all just agree to a difference of opinion?
 
starsevol said:
Because of personal experiance I do tend to side with Doug on this issue. Back in 1997 I was at a fundraiser dinner for my local herp club. I ended up winning a beautiful yearling female cornsnake. I named her Kate and I still have her. I happily bred her for 3 or 4 years with most of her babies going to several pet shops in the state. Years later I found out that she was a creamsicle bi product.
So I unknowingly tainted who knows how many future snakes in my area.

I still have Kate (well she is being taken care of by a friend because I'm moving out of state), but as soon as I found out what I did I never bred her again.

Until that happened, I never gave hybrids a seco:noevil:nd thought, but you can bet your bippy I have an opinion now......
Click to expand...

Maybe you are able to explain why you felt so upset about that besides you just feel it is important to have pure snakes. Did you harm any snakes? You did not notice the creamsicle markers, or they were not there, and so most others would not either I think. I know Doug and Gerards are cringing, but why is there a problem than? It is all about the idea there are some slightly alien genes in some snakes.. I think the problem is more in your heads, longing for pure snakes than in the real world.
 
Kevin S. said:
:After all, there is a small chance that someone somewhere will hatch some eggs and not get what they expect because one of the parents isn't of the highest pedigree.
Click to expand...


"there is a small chance that someone somwhere will hatch some eggs and not get what they expect"


HAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!! :laugh: :laugh:


More like everywhere you turn now my friend. (and by the many countless THOUSANDS)......oops!, sorry, that's just a few snakes to you :laugh:

Please for the sake of this country don't ever get involved with our nations economy issue. You would want people believing that back in the "great depression" there were probably only a couple folks in the entire country without of jobs and without food too I guess..LMAO!!



~Doug
 
Doug, concerning what I do with the hybrid offspring that look like either parent. As a said in an earlier post I try to breed obvious hybrids. You cross a knoblochi to a corn and I promise you it will NOT look like either one.

I either keep those that look too much like either parent or I sell or give them to other RESPONSIBLE hybrid breeders that use them for other hybrid projects.

I'll admit I've seen some things at shows and on-line that made me cringe b/c they were obviously mislabeled. However this inadvertently proves one of my points. If a beginner buys a male black rat and buys a female gray rat that is labeled as a black rat, guess what, they will breed.

Even pure breeders can have their hatchlings misrepresented.
I've seen some hondurans labeled as pueblans, to a beginner, they look the same.

If someone decides to get a pair of snakes to breed they need to do their homework first. You can't purify a species to the point that it can't be crossed into a similar species/subspecies no matter how hard you try.

Also a lot of hybrids will only breed with hybrids that are the same or very similar percentage crosses. I have a male cornduran 50% corn 50% honduran that will NOT breed anything but another 50/50 cross cornduran.

Yes some hybrids that are 75% one species will breed with the pure species but I do my best to avoid making 75% 25% hybrids although I will admit I have done it.

I commend your passion and effort you put into what you believe in, if you put that effort into everything you do I am sure you a very successful person.:cheers:
 
DMong said:
"there is a small chance that someone somwhere will hatch some eggs and not get what they expect"


HAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!! :laugh: :laugh:


More like everywhere you turn now my friend. (and by the many countless THOUSANDS)......oops!, sorry, that's just a few snakes to you :laugh:

Please for the sake of this country don't ever get involved with our nations economy issue. You would want people believing that back in the "great depression" there were probably only a couple folks in the entire country without of jobs and without food too I guess..LMAO!!



~Doug
Click to expand...

If I'm so easy to prove wrong, kindly point me to a recent thread, let's say in 2012, on any forum where someone bred 2 snakes that looked "pure" and hatched out offspring that indicated they were hybrids (avoiding sibling species that are essentially identical anyway-let's see a good example). Heck, if it's the "many countless THOUSANDS" I'm surprised I've missed so many on this very forum. I eagerly await my humble pie.
 
SnakeAround said:
Maybe you are able to explain why you felt so upset about that besides you just feel it is important to have pure snakes. Did you harm any snakes? You did not notice the creamsicle markers, or they were not there, and so most others would not either I think. I know Doug and Gerards are cringing, but why is there a problem than? It is all about the idea there are some slightly alien genes in some snakes.. I think the problem is more in your heads, longing for pure snakes than in the real world.
Click to expand...

Kate is a rootbeer, and back then I did not know what I know now. Plus I was told she was a cornsnake, and the pet shops and individuals who got the babies were told by ME that they were cornsnakes. They weren't, not at all.
 
SnakeAround said:
I think the problem is more in your heads, longing for pure snakes than in the real world.
Click to expand...

Yes, with more and more like you in the "real world", it certainly IS becoming more and more of a pipe dream isn't it?

Do you EVER take the "who cares" blinders off for chrissakes??.

I think it's important that later on in years when someone "longs" for example a real locality-specific line amel L.t.annulata that they can get one that hasn't been carelessly crossed with an amel nelsoni or hobby Hondo from some shlep and sold as an amel Mexican milk (annulata). Notice I didn't mention anything about nature, just that the same freaking subspecies be intact for the person(s) to be able to enjoy.

So that person and everyone else buys them as such and produces many more that get sprinkled all around as well, and so do all of the offspring's offspring after that BECAUSE of the original shlep that knowingly crossed them on purpose. They might look similar to the average inexperienced person, but they aren't the same animal most thought they were at all.............noooo, that never happens, I know..LOL!

It's easy to discount all of this too....."oh well, stuff happens, who cares anyway"

This care-free (careless) mindset is just un-real to me.



~Doug
 
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