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stupid breeders why cant you just leave things be

I think there are two separate issues here.

A. Cohabbing- dangerous, worth the risk? How is it in the SNAKES' best interest? Has a snake ever died from NOT being cohabbed, when if it would have been cohabbed, it would not have died?

B. Spacious, naturalistic vivs as opposed to Lab Animal Standard vivs. Do snakes benefit from enrichment? Is there a linear benefit to the snake from more enrichment?
 
So people who do not co-hab never put a snake in the wrong viv because they do not use locks and do close the door when feeding? But since the accident I take out the keys of the kings locks and feed them last in row so I cannot accidentally open them unconsciously and put in a snake. Problem solved!

I am done discussing co-habbing in general and especially with you, I only wanted to put detail to my opinion on it in this thread.
 
As far as understanding the view of Carpe Serpentis, I think I do understand it just a little better now.
He likes change. He likes creating things that have never been seen before.
He believes that species are in flux. He believes that the species as we know them have not been on earth for a very long time and are constantly transforming into something else, so if humans help them out a little bit, no harm done. At least this is what I THINK he believes by reading his posts. To me he doesn't seem happy or satisfied with what IS, he wants more than that.

Now my view is that I respect species that have been here for what I believe is thousands of years. I like what IS, and have no real desire to drastically change anything. I do like my morphs, oh yes I do! To me, playing with morphs is like playing with a giant box of crayola. It is the very same picture, just in different shades and hues. But hybridizers want to change the picture, not only the colors but the lines and shapes as well. And when I breed, I want the beauty of the parents inherited by the offspring, and for the babies new owners to fall head over heels in love with cornsnakes and this hobby, just like I did!
I just can't envision a cornsnake (well other species too, but especially a cornsnake) being any more perfect than what it is. And I just hate the thought of something so perfect being messed with.

One thing about Carpe Serpentis that I do like very very much, are his thoughts about meticulous record keeping.

I mean to me, it just can't get any more perfect than this!
 

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SnakeAround said:
So people who do not co-hab never put a snake in the wrong viv because they do not use locks and do close the door when feeding? But since the accident I take out the keys of the kings locks and feed them last in row so I cannot accidentally open them unconsciously and put in a snake. Problem solved!

I am done discussing co-habbing in general and especially with you, I only wanted to put detail to my opinion on it in this thread.
Click to expand...

In 17 years of keeping snakes, no, never, not once, did I ever put a snake in the wrong viv. When a snake is out, the viv is open. When I put the snake back, I look for the open viv. Easy as pie.
 
Nanci said:
I think there are two separate issues here.

A. Cohabbing- dangerous, worth the risk? How is it in the SNAKES' best interest? Has a snake ever died from NOT being cohabbed, when if it would have been cohabbed, it would not have died?
Click to expand...

How would one ever prove or disprove something about an individual deceased organism if it had been maintained differently?
 
dave partington said:
How would one ever prove or disprove something about an individual deceased organism if it had been maintained differently?
Click to expand...

Magic.

I guess a better way to tell would be to use a group of siblings. Keep one group one way, and the other group another. Record the data and compare once all have passed.
 
Well, if you cohab, and a snake gets eaten by another snake, you pretty much know that it wouldn't die in the same manner if it was housed alone...
 
Right now, I am extra extra glad I do not cohab.

I had a snake come up positive for crypto a few weeks ago. Now imagine if I had cohabbed. I am already euthanising today most of my hatchlings and all of my juveniles, including my normals het sunkissed phantom and Lia, the snake who was going to be matriarch for my Sweet Corn project. These snakes have all had a great *chance* for exposure because of a moment of stupidity when I washed their bins using the same sponge.

All of my adults are on pet-only status. They have a good *chance* to be clear of the parasite. But what if I had cohabbed? I'd have far more snakes with high probability of exposure. I'd be having to scramble for individual housing so I could grab fecal samples from everyone once the PCR is developed.

Cohabbing is just NOT worth the risk. Heck went through quarantine fine and looked healthy until he had his *first* regurge and went from normal snake to "Oh lookit me, I'm totally classic crypto with this swollen stomach." He was with me for somewhere around, or just shy of, a year.
 
BloodyBaroness said:
Magic.

I guess a better way to tell would be to use a group of siblings. Keep one group one way, and the other group another. Record the data and compare once all have passed.
Click to expand...

Maybe someone will try cohabbing for the first 18 months, in groups of 4 on average. Separate for feeding, put back together 2 days later. For up to the first 18 months. Probably the kind of thing one could learn at an expo, by asking around, with an open mind. Numerous breeders I've met and asked and who produce more than me every year have answered this. It may be of benefit to not let them know you post here before asking. The majority of them never post here. Those who do post here know better then to step in this. I suspect you may know all this though, based on your accurate usage of the word 'siblings'. I know better than to co-hab because people (plural) who post on this site come here and look around.
 
Shiari said:
Right now, I am extra extra glad I do not cohab.

I had a snake come up positive for crypto a few weeks ago. Now imagine if I had cohabbed. I am already euthanising today most of my hatchlings and all of my juveniles, including my normals het sunkissed phantom and Lia, the snake who was going to be matriarch for my Sweet Corn project. These snakes have all had a great *chance* for exposure because of a moment of stupidity when I washed their bins using the same sponge.

All of my adults are on pet-only status. They have a good *chance* to be clear of the parasite. But what if I had cohabbed? I'd have far more snakes with high probability of exposure. I'd be having to scramble for individual housing so I could grab fecal samples from everyone once the PCR is developed.

Cohabbing is just NOT worth the risk. Heck went through quarantine fine and looked healthy until he had his *first* regurge and went from normal snake to "Oh lookit me, I'm totally classic crypto with this swollen stomach." He was with me for somewhere around, or just shy of, a year.
Click to expand...

I am Soooo sorry to hear that! You must be absolutely devastated! If there is anything I can do to help, please let me know.
 
starsevol said:
In 17 years of keeping snakes, no, never, not once, did I ever put a snake in the wrong viv. When a snake is out, the viv is open. When I put the snake back, I look for the open viv. Easy as pie.
Click to expand...

Sincerely good for you that it has always worked for you. I did forgot to mention that I do close the vivs of my separately kept snakes most of the time also to keep in warmth. To me closing the viv is a habit, both in case there is another snake in it and for warmth. Sometimes I unlock all vivs I need to be in first and then do what I need to do and lock them all afterwards, depends on the amounts and just what I feel like doing that moment. Maybe I'm the only one whom made this mistake, but that would be because of me not paying attention enough/being distracted, not because of the co-habbing itself. I might need to train myself to stay focused but sometimes there are snake duties to take care of when you really feel like going to bed or when you are in a hurry.
 
Why is it when I get a mess of hatchlings and put them all together in a container, and wait for the first shed, after which they are housed individually,
why is it, if it is so stressful on them,
that they ball up together?
 

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dave partington said:
Why is it when I get a mess of hatchlings and put them all together in a container, and wait for the first shed, after which they are housed individually,
why is it, if it is so stressful on them,
that they ball up together?
Click to expand...

Just an idea here but it might have something to do with them being babies. Did we as humans feel the same kind of stress and tension that we did during and after adolescence?
 
dave partington said:
Why is it when I get a mess of hatchlings and put them all together in a container, and wait for the first shed, after which they are housed individually,
why is it, if it is so stressful on them,
that they ball up together?
Click to expand...
Personally, Dave, as the majority of cannibalism photos I've seen have been of hatchlings, I separate mine ASAP after hatching. Knowing my luck I'd find one precocious babe with it's clutchmate disapperaing inside if I didn't.
 
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