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Transparent Hypo? Blue Ice?

I was cleaning some containers today, and it struck me as what an odd coincidence it is that two completely unrelated forms of Hypo apparently originated from wild caught animals on the Okeetee hunt club properties.

Maybe collectors in that area should be wearing lead lined underwear..... :eek:
 
Hey elrojo,

Is everything still where it is supposed to be?? :eek:

Think way out side the box:
I know how much the word "intergrade" upsets the applecart, but is it possible that there could have been a cross that occurred between an Okeetee and a non-corn Hypo Snake X; the offspring carrying a "foreign" hypo gene that isn't "normal"??? Through time this new wildcard gene is passed around the local population and becomes more standardized and embedded.
 
Trans Hypo Test breedings 2004

I have shipped Trans Hypo Corns to three different breeders for test breedings next year. Hopefully, if all goes well, we will learn more about the hypos that we are working with next year.

An adult Male was shipped to Don Soderberg and he is going to breed him to the Regular Hypo, and Sunkissed Hypo lines next year. He may also breed him to other named hypo lines.

An adult Male Trans Hypo was sent to Charles Pritzel and he is going to breed him to the Dream Hypo Okeetee and may come up with others to breed him to.

An adult female Trans Hypo and an adult female Sunkissed Hypo were sent to Kat Hall and she is going to breed them to the Ultra Hypo line.
 
Are all recessive morphs in question?

Hi Cav,

Do you have any hypothesis as to want foreign non-corn hypo gene is a possibility. We could test breed to the possibilities. This could also be a possibility in instances where a gene just “popped” up within somebody’s colony as well. We could think way out side the box and this same type situation could be applied to just about all recessive genes within corn snakes. Cav is right, this is certainly a possibility with any new morph. We are actually talking about a new recessive gene. We have created many new morphs from existing recessive genes.

There are obviously multiple similar recessive genes within certain types of snakes. Anery A, B, C, D are good examples in corn snakes. Did any of them come from other than wild caught snakes? Were any of these genes introduced into the wild population or created in captivity from a non-corn? It is a possibility. Lavender Cal. Kings are another example of multiple recessive genes which are similar, but different and non-compatible. There are multiple hypo genes within corn snakes and multiple amel genes within other snakes as well that are non-compatible.

I have often wondered how so many Albino Pituophis popped up, one right after another. Where some of them produced by crossing the subspecies together and then breeding back to the desired “new” albino subspecies. Striped Albino Pacific Gophers are one of my suspicious “new” albinos. I knew the guy who first developed them. At the time I was very naive, but now many years later, when I look back on the situation, I am very suspicious. I know someone who created an Albino Pituophis vertebralis by breeding an albino sayi into the vertebralis and when the albino vertibralis looked like vertibralis a “new” albino was discovered.

The same thing could be a possibility with all of the Lampropeltis getulus albinos out there. I personally have never tested my suspicions, because I have been against crossing the subspecies. I have never owned a Creamsicle Corn Snake because of how they were created. Striped Creamsicles have been tempting me recently, but I have resisted. Lately, I have began to question my resentment and my resentment of others who cross subspecies or worse! I wanted to keep the subspecies “pure“, I told myself. Since, practically none of the snakes we purchase have enough information which can be traced back to pure subspecies, my desire to preserve the subspecies as it occurs in the wild, were not realistic.

No ethical scientist, would ever support the release of any of our captive bred snakes back into wild populations. Not even those which where suppose to be pure subspecies, unless they were wild caught snakes and the hatchlings where raised to good size and released back into the same area to help reestablish wild numbers. In captivity, we can easily bred out a trait which is necessary for wild snakes to survive. If we release these captive bred snakes into the wild, they say it is possible to destroy the entire wild population. I have always thought the captive bred snakes without this necessary trait would just die and have no effect on the wild population. I guess introducing a disease into the wild populations would have more of a chance to have disastrous effects on the entire population.

There will always be some doubt about the origins of any and all recessive genes in captive bred snakes, because we all know it is very possible for anybody to create new morph potions in our breeding facilities out of just about anything. Even, if we catch the wild snake ourselves and raise them up and produce a new morph, without independent corroboration, there will always be doubting minds. How could any body possibly prove that a new morph from a wild caught snake, which they caught themselves, actually is a new morph beyond any doubt? It is always possible to breed anything into the wild caught line behind closed doors to create something new, and proving that the snake in question actually is wild caught would be difficult, even with photos and witnesses at the scene of the crime.

A registry would not solve the situation either. Where would we start? A registry is only as good as the information submitted by the breeders. The Arabian Horse Registry has went to DNA typing instead of blood typing to try to eliminate fraud.
 
Yeah, that, and add the fact that so many of these species have such similar genetics that it's possible for members of two different Genera to have the same point mutation causing the same phenotype. One example is the Amelanism found in Corns and Nelsoni, which apparently are alleles: breed amel corn to amel Nelsoni, you get F1 amelanistic (hybrid) offspring.

The point is that if you suspect a "new" corn trait came from some other species, it's still not possible to prove anything by showing it to be compatible with a similar mutant in another species. They use a LOT of the same parts to begin with, so it would be like taking the lug nut off a Ford Tempo and screwing it onto the lug of a Ford Taurus and saying, "It fits! Aha! This isn't a 'pure' Taurus!" ;)
 
Lead lined underwear

Lead lined underwear should be a required garment for collectors around the Okeetee Gun Club. There may be radiation in the area. Perhaps aliens from another world landed there and planted two different hypo snakes from their world there just to screw with us.

My Okeetees came from Jasper County, SC in the immediate area of the Okeetee Gun Club, in the early 90’s, as the story goes. Kathy Loves Okeetees also came from Jasper County or the surrounding area, in the 80’s, as the story goes and are from the same population. I have never been to Jasper County so I don’t know anything about it. Most counties are fairly large and geographically diverse. The surrounding counties are most likely similar and may contain the same population of corns that we would call wild caught Okeetees. I have heard of corns actually being caught on the Gun Club properties, that are Okeetees and some that don’t have the Okeetee look at all and are ugly. Hey, maybe these ugly snakes carry an anery gene. Big mistake by the collectors, I mean huge! Corns with the Okeetee look have been caught from the counties surrounding Jasper County.

I am sure that these collectors who catch Okeetees, would breed a wild caught Okeetee from Jasper County with a wild caught Okeetee from one of the surrounding counties and call them F 1’s from wild caught Okeetees. They would be right and would not be misrepresenting them in any way. Their story behind their F1 hatchlings would include the legendary Jasper County you could be sure of that.

It is nice that we have the Okeetee Gun Club in snake legend to keep us mystified, but the snakes don’t know anything about our legend and are not confined to the Gun Club Properties. The geographic range of corns which have the Okeetee look is probably fairly good sized. It is possible for two non compatible hypo genes to originate from the same area. What area are we talking about though? The snakes which carried these genes could have been collected many miles from one another and perhaps in different counties and geographic areas which are separated from each other by many miles and drainages.

I am not sure all of this matters much when we are talking about designer corns, which we are producing in captivity. If the Trans Hypo gene combined with other genes produces a spectacular new morph, nobody who owns them will really care much about the origins of the Trans Hypo gene. Especially, many years from now and by new comers to the hobby. I don’t question or care about the origins of established recessive genes in corns such as amels or anery A and the like, do you?

I have a respect for wild caught locality snakes and appreciate the offspring from them in my colony. I appreciate knowing the story behind how some of our designer corns were created or produced. I wish I knew more about the original recessive traits that are expressed in the snakes we love. Unfortunately, many of the people who first produced a certain type of morph are no longer with us or just disappeared from the snake world and their stories are lost forever. It would be interesting to track down who produced the first Regular Hypo Corn and if it came from a wild caught snake, but it may not be possible. It doesn’t really matter to me. I am not going to get rid of my snakes that carry the Regular Hypo gene because I don’t know the entire story behind them. I kind of like my Hypo Lavenders and Ghost and plan on keeping them around awhile and look forward to seeing their little noses poking out next year. I hope to see the noses of some Trans Hypo Lavenders next year as well. They could be tasty!
 
ecreipeoj,

I want to tell you I have really really enjoyed looking at your awesome snakes. There was too much text in this thread for a stupid foreigner like me but the pictures say it all.. I am still in awe.

Marcel from Holland.
 
" . . .stupid foreigner like me . . ."

Come on now, Marcel! You're not stupid in any way, and there are no foreigners in the online community!

Admit it, you just didn't read all the way through this, because there wasn't a big part of it on bloodred morphs . . .:D :D :D

Just teasing . . . ;)
 
Darin Chappell said:
" . . .stupid foreigner like me . . ."

Come on now, Marcel! You're not stupid in any way, and there are no foreigners in the online community!

Admit it, you just didn't read all the way through this, because there wasn't a big part of it on bloodred morphs . .
Click to expand...

LOL, you got me there.. ;)
 
Not Stupid, perhaps just language barriers?

Not stupid, perhaps just language barriers. I sure wish I could read the text on this site! It is one of the ones I found when I ran searches for other people using the Transparent Hypo name. I found several that used the name in the descriptions of hypos. This site looks pretty complete and full of information, but I can’t read it!

http://www.kornnatterlexikon.de/Lexikon/lexikonderkornnattervarianten.htm
 
For free translations try http://www.freetranslation.com/ its pretty good but there are others.
TRANSPARENT (hypomelanistic):

Eine Bezeichnung für eine sehr extreme Form der HYPOMELANISTIC, die zwar die typischen schwarzen Augen hat, ansonsten aber eher nach einer AMELANISTIC aussieht. Im Gegensatz zur ULTRA HYPO gehen diese Tiere farblich mehr in die Richtung einer SUNGLOW.
:
Click to expand...

translated says:
TRANSPARENT (hypomelanistic) :

A label for a very extreme form of the HYPOMELANISTIC, that has to be sure the typical black eyes, otherwise however sooner after an AMELANISTIC looks. In contrast to the ULTRA HYPO, these animals farblich go more into the direction of a SUNGLOW. Oh and BTW: these are translated in german! Have fun!
 
Perhaps I can translate it "better" :) ~ggg~

"It's a label for a very extreme form of hypo. The animals have black eyes on the one hand but look very simular to amelanistic animals on the other.
In contrast to the Ultra-hypo, these animal look more like Sunglows than like normal amelanistics (...like the Ultras do)."

God, I hope this is more understandable - if not, it's just what THEY told us to be english ;).
Keep visiting this site, there will be an interesting update within the next month or so.

Greetings from Germany

Mic
 
As for the origination of the original Hypo gene, I believe Bill and Kathy Love produced them. This was back in the early to mid 80s, I believe. Bill told me that he got an animal on breeding loan from Jack (or John) Cole and the resulting offspring (sorry, I have NO idea what those animals actually were), produced about half a clutch of much lighter looking animals. I remember seeing that clutch, and there was no doubt in my mind that there was something definitely different about those lighter animals. I believe I may have gotten some of that stock, but heck, I can't remember exactly.

And yes, someday a lot of details are going to be lost as memories fade and the original reservoirs of information pass away. Heck, if I died tomorrow, all of my sites, and all of the information contained in them, would just vanish when the server leases expired. Since I am paying on them on a month to month basis, that wouldn't be long at all.

Kind of a scary thought, isn't it?
 
Regular Hypo information

I remembered reading from Rich Z’s site that he first saw the Regular Hypos at Bill and Kathy Loves house. I thought I would see if the origins of the regular hypo could still be tracked down. I emailed Kathy and asked her what she remembered about the origins of the Regular Hypo Corn Snakes. Her reply is below:

The first hypo I ever saw was in the mid-80s at Van Horn's reptile exhibit in central Florida. He said it was found wild near Tampa, I think. We got babies from that female and started the line from there. But I think some other wild caught ones (maybe a couple, not sure) popped up in Florida soon after that, but can't say for sure. Seems like we bred somebody else's with ours back in the 80s and they produced hypos as expected. That's about all I can tell you.

Kathy Love
 
About all of these Transparent Hypo experiments, I suggest everyone taking part in them to wait a few years before trying to make any judgement calls on what is going on. Murphy's Law has dealt us a real joker in the deck with Hypomelanism.

I must have been getting real numbed out during hatching season, because a lot of things I was seeing just rolled off my back and I didn't even make comment on it any longer. But tonight I'm packing for the Tinley Park show and was looking for some nice Hypo Lavenders to take with me. I found a real nice group of them and started sexing them. Hmm sex ratio turned out nice as well. So I took a look at the hatching record card to see where they came from. I actually laughed out loud when I looked it over.

The parents were a Hypomelanistic Lavender bred to a Hypomelanistic Okeetee. Okay, so the Hypo Okeetee turns out to be het for Lavender. No big deal. Based on the Hypo I used in that line, that is not surprising, but the rest of the story is what got me laughing.

I don't have the exact numbers right in front of me, so this might be off by one or two, but it is approximately correct. In that clutch, I got two Hypos, 7 Hypo Lavenders, and 5 Lavenders.

LOL!!

Hey, I'm going back over to the reptile building and finish packing. Maybe I'll get a couple of hours sleep yet tonight. But I am certainly not going to lose any sleep pondering over this Hypomelanism chaos.

See some of you at Tinley, I expect......
 
More info on the origins of the Trans Hypo gene.

I contacted Gordon Schuett again and ask if I could get his brothers contact information so I could try to track down more information about the origins of the Trans Hypo gene. Gordon gave me his brothers name (Kyle Schuett) and phone number in Florida and I spoke to him on the phone. Kyle is still into reptiles and is working with Albino Boas and Albino Snapping Turtles, so he remembered some information about the Okeetee Corn Snakes which he sent to Gordon. The founder animal from this line was a male which was collected by Scott Pfaff, who was Curator of Reptiles and the Ridgeland Zoo. Scott Pfaff apparently is a locality collector of the Okeetee Phase Corn Snakes from the wild and Hunted the Club most of the time, because he had permission to do so. The male was lighter and more beautiful than any other Okeetee Phase Corn Snake that Kyle has seen. They were of the impression that the animal was some type of hypo, but it was not like the Trans Hypo Okeetees, which I described to him. He related that Scott collected on the Hunt Club mostly, but did not know exactly where the founder male was captured or where the female he bred him to was captured. Kyle believes that Scott is still working at the Zoo and probably still has Corn Snakes from the Okeetee Phase Corn Snake which was the founder of the Trans Hypo Okeetee he collected. Kyle said that this male was the founder, meaning the male which Scott used to breed to most all of his females. It is also possible that the female that produced the Okeetees which were sent to Gordon was the source of the Trans Hypo Gene, because as far as Kyle knew no other Hypos were produced.

So far, I have been lucky and have traced down all of the people in the chain from the wild caught snake to the Trans Hypo Okeetee. I am sure that I will be able to contact Scott and he can provide the “Documentation” as to where the original “founder” male and female of the Transparent Hypo Okeetee were collected.
 
Final Chapter: Trans Hypo Okeetee Corn Snake

Attached below is a copy of the one of the emails I received from Scott Pfaff, who bred the Okeetee Phase Corn Snake which the Transparent Hypo gene originated from. As you can see from this email, they are not locality Okeetees, but wild Jasper County Okeetee Phase Corn Snakes. Actually, the two males used would not necessarily fit the perfect description of an Okeetee Phase Corn Snake, but to Scott they where just a little different, which made them special to him. The locality of the two males Scott used from Jasper County is “Documented”, but not the females. It is still unknown exactly where the snake was captured which carried the Trans hypo gene, but the story behind them is as complete as it can be, considering how much time has past. It may or may not matter to you, but the story behind them will most likely interest some corn snake enthusiast.

Purist Okeetee Collectors may be happy about this information or not. I am interested in all aspects of the Wild Okeetee Phase Corn Snakes and Locality Okeetee Corn Snakes. I think it would be very interesting for locality collectors to share some of the information, such as what Scott has provided to educate the ones interested in such information who may never visit Jasper County. It seems from this email, that other Locality Okeetee Phase Corn Snakes could be maintained in the same way that Locality Gray Banded King Snakes are collected. I understand the “Lore of Kauffield” and the interest in Kauffield Locality Okeetees, but I would think that there would be a broader interest in the Okeetee Phase Corn Snakes that occur in the wild, because I feel as Kauffield and many others feel, that the Okeetee Phase Corn Snakes from Jasper County are one of the prettiest snakes in the world.

The male corn snake that Kyle was referring to actually came from Good Hope Plantation and not Okeetee at all. He lacked most of the black pigment and was mostly orange. Another, similar male, that was part of the breeding group was from Chelsea Plantation. The females that these two bred, and produced the snakes you acquired from Gordon, were all from Jasper County, but not necessarily Okeetee.

The classic "Okeetee corn snake" can come from any location in SE South Carolina. Even on Okeetee, there are both brightly colored corns from the hilltops (~50 feet elevation) and darker snakes from the lowlands. I am sure that these animals are all part of one gene pool. Some of the best looking corn snakes in the county come from downtown Ridgeland. I have also found "Okeetee corns" in Charleston and Berkeley counties in SC and along the north shore of Lake Okeechobee in Florida.

Charles Scott Pfaff
Curator/Herpetology
Riverbanks Zoo and Garden
PO Box 1060
Columbia, SC 29202
 
Trans Hypo = "Lava" Corn ?

I believe we have found one of the other "Named" hypos that will be compatible with the Trans Hypo. I sold Tim Rainwater every morph of corn snake that I had which he didn't at the time the Lavender Corns came out. He bought a lot of stripes, motleys and some Trans Hypos. I am fairly certain these “Lava” Corns are compatible with the Trans line without any test breedings based upon their look and the chain of possession is complete back to me. Jeff is interested in test breeding them next year so we will remove any all doubt then. We have begun to unravel the hypo mystery and will learn a great deal more next year and in the years to come if we are diligent.

Below are portions of some of Jeff’s emails to me, explaining how he came to own the “Lava” Corns and how they were named. I believe the same kind of circumstances have occurred with other people, when collections of animals are sold and the original information is not complete or not completely understood. It is easy to see by this example how easily the hypo mess has occurred. There are many other causes, but I would have to blame this one on me, because I did not test breed them in the very beginning and get the information out to everyone. I also did not establish an excepted name, which could be passed on. As people come and go in this business, and as time passes, it will be increasing important to keep better track of our ever increasing morphs.

Joe

__________________________________________________
Joe,
About a year ago, I posted some hypo corns with the name 'lava' corn attached. I got tons of 'not-so-nice' e-mails and quickly retracted my posts and info. However, this new transparent hypo has me thinking....

As the story goes, my 'lava' corns came from a guy who got them from Tim Rainwater. The name that came with them was Translucent Hypo. I got a male and 3 'hets'. For the past 3 years I've bred the male to the females and every year the females produce about 50/50 hypo/normals. The thing is, I'm trying to figure out the genetics....and with your information, I might have the same animals.

Here is the attached link of my pics and info...let me know what you think. I'd be up for figuring this 'hypo' out. As of now, I have not bred it out to test it yet...but this coming season I was going to. My priority had been to combine it with anerys and anery motleys and stripes before testing it out. Wanted to get the 'hypo' in other lines and didn't want to waste matings testing it.

Let me know if you have any info,

Jeff


Lava corn link:http://www.mohrsnakes.com/lava/lava.html
__________________________________________________
Joe,
That is good I may finally have an explanation for these and now I don't feel so bad for claiming they were a new hypo. The name lava corn was actually a creation of mine. They came with the name translucent hypo and I was told that was a Tim R. name. I could not find anyone with them so I decided to start my own project. They reminded me of the lava flows I've seen in South America so I thought I'd give that name a try. Well, criticism exploded and I quickly took them off the market after only selling a few and have held back almost everything since then.
 
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