Ultra Mystery...

[ecreipeoj]

Vin, If you do a search on this forum you will find that the Pro and Con Hybrid debated has been done a thousand times and everything that could possibly said about the subject has already been said.

I do not think that any captive born snakes of any kind should be let go in the wild period. They are intended for captive bred use only. There are many reasons for this, but I am not going to go into a bunch of them. The captive snakes could be carrying a disease, which would wipe out the wild population. They could breed with the native population and breed out a certain survival aspect of the wild population, which would wipe out the wild population. They could induce hybrid vigor into the wild population and they would thrive extremely well. There is no way to tell. There is just no reason to do it period!

Sure people will let captive bred snakes go into the wild and captive bred snakes will get loose at times. It is pretty low to bring up Stephen Roylance’s loss in the Hurricane as an example but we get your point. You may think that your Corn Snakes are pure but it is extremely unlikely they are. In addition a Pure Corn that has ancestors from Okeetee and Miami Phases are not a genetic representative of any type of pure Corn Snake in the wild and is basically a mutt as well. A very beautiful mutt! It would be just as unethical to release one of your Bloodred Corns, Striped Bloodred or Hypo Lav Bloodred Corns into the wild for the same exact reasons that you have been spouting. They are nothing like the genetic wild population that you think they could be released into. Your Hypo Lav Bloodred Corns are Mutant mutts.

We are not a part of some wide spread scientific community trying to preserve wild type Corns Snakes in captivity so our great grand children will be able to see what a pure Corn Snake looks like or so we can re-introduce them back into the wild after they are extinct to re-populated the species.

I have no idea how you get off on that kind of trip! We are hobbyist breeding a Mutant in captivity, just like many other types of animals, but we like snakes and in this case Corn Snakes. There is no higher, loftier goal or purpose to what we are doing. I breed a lot of Koi. They are intended for being kept in captivity in people’s ponds. They look nothing like a wild carp and should never be released into the wild. That is not the purpose of having them or breeding them. They are very beautiful just like our Mutant Corn Snakes. We are not going to re-populate a species that goes extinct with them.

Since you know these things can happen and a burglar could break into your snake room and release all of you snakes, I think that you should immediately sell all of your snakes and give the money to PETA and become a member.

 

[CAV]

This is now officially "The thread that wouldn't die."

We are not a part of some wide spread scientific community trying to preserve wild type Corns Snakes in captivity so our great grand children will be able to see what a pure Corn Snake looks like or so we can re-introduce them back into the wild after they are extinct to re-populated the species.

I wouldn't speak for everyone here Joe. About half of my reptiles are true locality animals that I've kept pure for this very reason. I assume you're familiar with the historical stories behind most of the island boas. Of course I'd never dream of releasing captive animal into native populations for health reasons.

 

[ecreipeoj]

CAV, I am sorry. I am sure that you know I wasn't talking about you. The Hunt Club Okeetees are certainly a representative of a genetic population of Corn Snakes. Since you guys adhere to your definition of a Pure Okeetee Corn snake and are true to your beliefs, I respect you for that believe me.

 

[ecreipeoj]

Also whatever happened to the non 'cross' snakes? were they being sold along with the crosses, who has these non-cross corns right now? Were they kept 'pure' or were they to later on crossed with Grey Rats? Were the crosses ever sold? Do we know that for a fact? Sorry if I missed some of these questions being answered at an earlier post but I have been very busy with finally going back to school after the hurricanes here in FL.

Crazy Corn, I see that you are 16 years old and you know what simple questions could be ask to find out what really happen in the development of the Ultra Hypo Line and the Goldust. It is not a complicated thing. I sent the below email to Falcon with similar questions as yours and got this response below which is basically nothing.

I do not believe a smoking gun will be found. I think everybody has to read the information and decide for themselves. I have already started to see things like, they are 110% Pure Corn and Shivers has screwed a lot of people in the end and can not be trusted and it is Shivers BS and on and on. This entire thing is BS. Lies upon top of lies, political spin and denial.

Obviously Falcon and Shivers has told many stories. Look at the response below. It is a song and dance to say the least. They have both been doing that for a very long time, depending on who they are talking to. There would be no need to give a song and dance story in anyway shape or form if the truth was “Pure”. That much is very obvious to me.

Everybody wants “Facts” but nobody will ever state what facts is would take and I personally do not think that it matters. The Goldust Corns are as pure as the rest of the Mutant Corns if you ask me. They look just like “Pure” Corns so what is the point. You may be able to tell a half breed but ¾ pure and 7/8 pure Corns look like pure Corns and can certainly be included in “Best effort“.



----- Original Message -----
From: Mike Falcon
To: Joe Pierce
Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2004 6:08 AM
Subject: Re: Ultras

That was all a very long time ago. I did breed a grey rat to a snow corn and Andy received half the babies. But I mostly breed them together. I do recall that some of the ultra hypos hypo had been only breed to pure corns snakes. Andy might have breed some into the grey/snow line. So it is really hard to tell the exact genetics today. The ultra ambers do look like pure corns. You just have to accept what they look like today, nice snakes. The hypo gene is different but whether they are from a pure corn strain or grey snow strain is hard to prove.
----- Original Message -----
From: Joe Pierce
To: Mike Falcon
Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2004 12:03 AM
Subject: Ultras
Hi Mike,
Me again and I am sure that you have heard from Shivers or others about the subject I am about to ask you about. I know that this may be a very difficult issue for you to discuss, because so many people are up in arms about it. From my previous emails to you, I got the impression that you were an honest man and wanted to let me know the truth about the Utlra Hypos and Ultra "Ambers".
Here is the tread where the discussion has been taking place about them. http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13577&page=1&pp=10
Your name has came up a lot. Shiver told me in an email that the Ultra Ambers have Grey Rat in their background and you also told me that the original wild caught Corn that carried the Ultra gene was bred to a Normal Corn and to a Grey Rat/Corn Cross. (See your email below) I will forward Shivers emails to you after I send this.
I know that you have told people that the Ultra line is pure corn in the past and so had Shivers, but many people have heard that Grey Rat is in their background for a long time and you and Shivers have confirmed this to me.
It would be great for everybody involved if we knew more about what you did with the offspring from these breedings and what you know that Andy did.
Are there pure Ultra Corns from Ultra X Corn? If so where did they go and who has them? To the best of your knowledge.
Where did the Ultra X Greyrat/Corn snake offspring go?
Are there two distinct lines (Pure Ultra, Ultra Greyrats cross) or did they get mixed up?
Which line was involved in producing the Ultra Ambers?
Please do the right thing and tell everything that you know about this topic. You can either email me, or post it yourself.
I hope that you are willing to do the right thing at this time.
Joe

 

[ecreipeoj]

For those of you that might have thought I had the smoking gun, I did not. Unless perhaps, Doug Barr and Andy Barr are brothers. They do look like Ultras and Ultra Ambers don’t they? They caught my attention because they resembled Ultra and or Ultra Caramels to me and had links to the Frosted Gray Rat/Corn Hybrids and Barr, but the wrong Barr. They were bought in Daytona in 1998 from Doug Barr.

It wouldn’t have matter at all if they were from Andy Barr anyway because Andy could have kept Pure Ultras and mixed them into the Frosteds as well. We don’t even know if Barr got Pure Ultras or Ultra hybrids from Falcon. It seems to be a complete mystery to Falcon. If we ever get a smoking gun, it will have to come from Barr, because Shivers has lost his credibility with most people and Barr is the only one that could know if the Ultra that he sold to Shivers was from “Pure” Corn lines or Gray Rat/Corn background. I am sure Shivers knows what he bought but nobody believes him one way or the other.

Anyway the snakes in the photo are Hybrids. Here are their current photos. They are Hypos from the Frosted line from Gray Rat/Corn Hybrids. This is what made me suspect Ultra. One of the parent snakes of these Hybrids is a Creamsicle X Frosted (Gray Rat/Corn)(Must be het Hypo too) and the other was a Hypo het Frosted (Gray Rat/Corn). Hypo type not known, but it was assumed by the owner to be Standard Hypo. They did not ask.

 

[Vinman]

#1 I never brought the guy's name into this you did and is a prime exp. at what can happen. Ho do you know I was talking about him it could have been anybody ? Low what is so low about the truth . I was not making fun of this tragedy. now every body knows his name because of you spilled the beans. I think you owe me an appoligy and after the fact at the way I come to your defance about your intergeadity (yeah I spelled it wrong) Thats not cool.
# 2 the Koi story , this is the reason why certan states prohibit certin animals to eather be keept as pets or used as breeding animals.
# 3 Since you know my okeetee stock so well I guess the 2.1 okeetee I have are wild the 2 males I caught in Jasper Co. my self and the female who was found on hap harrazed rd. was given to me by my friend John Green (aka boggie) who was born and raised in Hardeeville ,Jasper Co. S.C. and I have 2.2 F1 from these snakes . Any of these F1 Okeetee's I have look just like any of the wild ones that I seen live or road kill . I bet you don't know what a wild Okeetee looks like. I seen Okeetees in the wild look just as nice as any bred for color or pattren in the hobby and some so ulgy you will not belive it unless you see for yourself. No black boaders, no color. white fleckilles all over a nasty dark brown back round. I been there 3 times so tell me Joe What does my Okeetees being that they are wild caught and that you say they dont resemable wild ones look like? Would you like some salt & pepper with your foot or some mustard ?
# 4 I agree you should not realse animals back into the wild unless to take certin precautions . and the animals are the same genitecs (local gene pool) I have done just that here in my local park. Pelham Bay Park Bx.,N. Y. With the N.Y.C parkes Dept. perminssion> WE had to get permits from N.Y.state Fish & wildlife. So Joe some of us are not just into it for the money like you .I will not sit here and say I dont do this for a living. This would be a lie! I am a conservationist and yes some of us waste our time and money for the cause of nature. So people can take a walk in a city park and find a Reptile or a Amphibian. Who knows Joe it might be your next customer. Vinny Ritchie aka Vinman

 

[Vinman]

By the way there are more pure corns that are bred for a certain local than just okeetee corns. Del. W.Va., N.J.

 

[Serpwidgets]

Crazy corn you just don't understand.

No, it is you who does not understand what you are talking about. Either that or you hope that everyone else doesn't understand. Or you're just a troll. Your position does not make any sense.

When people let go corns in the wild they dont know what the back round history of the snake is. Some of these snakes ansistery goes back before you were born and probley before I was born as well, I'm 41. Some of these snakes have tanted blood and the person does not know it, this is the problem.

When snakes are "let go" in the wild, in order to have any affect on the wild population, they have to survive and find a mate and produce fertile offspring who can do the same. If snakes have "bad" genes or gene combinations, this will not happen. Period.

Your argument that "tainted" snakes will somehow harm the population does not make any sense. By definition, if the genes are successfully propagated and integrated into the population, they are "good" genes.

It doesn't matter what you personally think of those genes, nor does it matter what your fellow anti-hybrid snake nazis think. You are not God. You are not the sole arbiter of which genes are good and which are bad. You do not get to dictate to the rest of us, or to the process of natural selection, what genes "belong" in what population. Get over your bad self.

And as far as breeding non-hybrid and/or non-morphed corns, this doesn't change anything. You are not applying the selection pressures that the wild does. You do not kill off 99% of your offspring and select for what is most fit for the wild. You are, by definition, creating an "inferior" gene pool in captivity as it relates to the wild conditions because you do not select based on the same criteria. If you let your captive "pure" (ha ha) corns go in the wild, they will not be any more or less "fit" than any hybrid. You are just as likely to "harm" the wild population, or to benefit it, as anyone else. Get off your high-horse.

How many creamsicle or other hybrids that get loose from Fa. wholesalers?

So what? Your goal is to keep anything from changing because you think that nature hangs precariously balanced on a ledge, and it can't live without you. It does not. Life is always out of balance, and constantly changing from one unbalanced position to another, and constantly correcting itself. That is the driving force behind evolution, and apparently you think you can stop it. It did fine for billions of years without you, it will do fine for billions more years without you, and it will survive your silly attempts to stop its progress.

 

[Russ Bates]

Tired of Reading

yes I know I have an option not to read but dang this is better than a murder / mystery.

Joe - wouldn't the corn pictured above be a (GreyXCornXemoryi) since you did say it was from a creamsicle?


Best of luck to those who have them. I think they are beautiful no matter how you look at them.

Just chiming in

Russ

 

[mike panic]

I thought I would share some emails I exhanged with Mike Shiver about these Ultra caramels I received from him via Ken Siffert. This wont really help in making any sense of the Hybrid thing but it will show that Mike contradicts himself and really cannot be taken seriously at this point. I hope it comes out.


Mike, here are the only two Ken hatched out. They are pretty damn nice!!!! I have a real decent double clutch brewing. Thanks. Mike Panichi
----- Original Message -----
From: ANGELA SHIVER
To: Mike Panic
Sent: Sunday, July 25, 2004 7:14 AM
Subject: Re: Message about: 2004 COTTON CANDY HYPO LAVENDERS AND HETS


Yes the amber motleys and the butter motley female are from an ultra x ultra breeding.They were from ultra hypo motley het carmel and albino x ultra hypo motley het carmel and albino(butter).I do remember the name.It seems like she had bought from me before.

Mike

----- Original Message -----
From: Mike Panic
Sent: Saturday, July 24, 2004 4:52 PM
To: ANGELA SHIVER
Subject: Re: Message about: 2004 COTTON CANDY HYPO LAVENDERS AND HETS

I dont know where she got them from. Her name is Katherine Hall. She is on Rich Z's site all the time. She seems to work with all of the known Hypos and tests out each gene. Are the male motleys and the female butter motley from the Ultra to ultra breedings? Thanks. Mike----- Original Message -----
From: ANGELA SHIVER
To: Mike Panic
Sent: Saturday, July 24, 2004 7:06 PM
Subject: Re: Message about: 2004 COTTON CANDY HYPO LAVENDERS AND HETS


Yes they are from the same clutch.There mother wasnt from the ultra line but the father was.They are carrying the gene but are going to look a little different than the ones that come from ultra x ultra.So some of there babies if bred to the ultra males,will be ultra and others may look a little different.When that gene is introduced to another line it does seem to dominate.I am not sure who Kat is.Did she get some from this line from me?

Mike

----- Original Message -----
From: Mike Panic
Sent: Saturday, July 24, 2004 8:02 AM
To: ANGELA SHIVER
Subject: Re: Message about: 2004 COTTON CANDY HYPO LAVENDERS AND HETS

You lost me a little. Remember I bought that pair of caramels het for High yellow from you? And then later on, the second female from the same clutch? I thought they were from the same clutch as this amber in the photo above. This girl Kat has been emailing me and asking alot of questions because she is suggesting that through her breedings and Don Soderbergs breedings, the Ultras seem like they are acting co dominantly. They dont have it nailed down yet but they are confused by the babies that have been hatching out. I placed a comparison photo of that caramel right next to that nice amber. Are they from the same clutch and are they both from the ultra lines? Thanks again. Did you find any co dominance in your breeding with these guys? Mike P ---- Original Message -----
From: ANGELA SHIVER
To: Mike Panic
Sent: Saturday, July 24, 2004 9:54 AM
Subject: Re: Message about: 2004 COTTON CANDY HYPO LAVENDERS AND HETS


That female was from the same clutch as the carmel het for amber you just got back.I bred my amber male that Rich has now to one of the carmel females that ken got.That year only 1 amber came out and the rest were carmels.The next year there were 3-4 ambers.I am not sure why the ratio was that way.She is the carmel female with the small square blotches,very aggressive feeder.She was not related to the amber line that I had but when bred to that male the babies still seem to come out very nice.The offspring from that female are much larger than that off the original ultra line.

Mike

----- Original Message -----
From: Mike Panic
Sent: Friday, July 23, 2004 6:53 PM
To: ANGELA SHIVER
Subject: Re: Message about: 2004 COTTON CANDY HYPO LAVENDERS AND HETS

That baby came from this female. I was lucky enough to get a double clutch of 6 eggs from her as well. You have seen them as hatchlings, let me ask you this, does that baby look like the mom did when she was hatched out? By the way, I was lucky enough to get that last female caramel het for Ultra I bought from you back into my collection. I hope all is well. Mike
----- Original Message -----
From: ANGELA SHIVER
To: Mike Panic
Sent: Friday, July 23, 2004 10:29 PM
Subject: Re: Message about: 2004 COTTON CANDY HYPO LAVENDERS AND HETS



Hey Mike,

That one looks great.It will be a beauty.Its nice already and will only get better with age.Like i said that males are always the nicest onesWhich female did that one came from?

Mike
----- Original Message -----
From: Mike Panic
Sent: Friday, July 23, 2004 3:53 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Message about: 2004 COTTON CANDY HYPO LAVENDERS AND HETS

Hey man, Ken just hatched them out today. I think there will only be three
or four. He said they look awsome. I didnt see them as of yet. Here is a
photo of one of the hatchlings from that Ultra amber female who was bred to
the motley males. Did she look like this as a ababy? Thanks alot for any
info. When I get a photo, I'll email it to you. Mike
----- Original Message -----
From: <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, July 23, 2004 5:41 PM
Subject: Message about: 2004 COTTON CANDY HYPO LAVENDERS AND HETS


> I have been waiting to see a pic of the any amber motleys that were
hatched.Was there any?
>
> mmotleys
>
> Mike
>
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> location window) the URL below to view the ad that
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--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

[Vinman]

Serpwidgets you are not god don't tamper with nature let natrue change itself if you relase tanted blood in the wild corns all over there range they wont have the same genitc make up there for they are no longer be a valid species any more. Are you that blind. we are not just taking about emoryi or obsoleta what about milks & kings you have no Idea what you are talking about .Thats all we need another snake eating snake in nature that could destroy a link in the food chain for one or more species. Your total disregurd for the delicate balance is disgusting. Calling me names does not add to your credibleity It shows how unprofessional you are . vinman

 

[ecreipeoj]

Joe - wouldn't the corn pictured above be a (GreyXCornXemoryi) since you did say it was from a creamsicle?Russ

Yes, but I have no idea what percentages of each he would carry.

As a hatchling, they both could have fooled me, and most others it seems since there were very few guesses. As adults it is more obvious, if you know.

 

[Serpwidgets]

Serpwidgets you are not god

Neither are you. The difference between us is that you think you are.

if you relase tanted blood in the wild corns all over there range they wont have the same genitc make up there for they are no longer be a valid species any more.

Like I said, you don't know what you're talking about. If the genetic makeup of a species changes, it's called REALITY. It's what has happened for billions of years. It's what will always happen as long as life exists. It's why you, me, and our cornsnakes and our hybrids all exist. Duh. Corns and all of the snakes that they have been hybridized with have all come from a common ancestor. One type of snake did not turn into 50 kinds of snakes by a process where none of them ever changed. You don't even grasp the most basic concept of what makes one species of snake different or the same as each other, or how they are related, but you think you can tell everyone else what they can or cannot breed their own snakes to.

you are not god don't tamper with nature let natrue change itself

Excuse me, troll, but you are the one who said you released captive bred snakes into the wild. You are "tampering with nature."

Your total disregurd for the delicate balance is disgusting.

Ya, that's what I mean, you think there's a delicate balance and that nature can't live without a bunch of egomaniacs like you who think they can dictate what is "good" or "bad" in a system they don't even begin to understand.

Calling me names does not add to your credibleity It shows how unprofessional you are.

This isn't my profession, it's my hobby.

 

[Kens]

Vinny, Come on,enough is enough!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Vin,
I have known you for years, lets just STOP all this BS you are talking. Its getting REAL OLD, REAL FAST!!

Ken Siffert

 

[Rich Z]

I think everyone in this thread needs to stop the derogatory statements directed at each other. And I DO mean everyone. Calling someone else a derogatory name stops here and now. No exceptions.

I don't get to boot people off of this site very often, so don't give me a good excuse to exercise that option right now.

 

[ecreipeoj]

Well, it is a little unfortunate that the mystery novel is going to end soon and we have got into a pro and con hybrid debate, which is really irrelevant to this thread. The topic of this thread is the Ultra Hypos relationship with the Amel gene and the history of the Ultra Hypo gene.

The only relevancy that I can see is how each person may view a Corn such as the Goldust Motleys in the future which may or may not have Gray Rat blood in them many generations ago, which is akin to having a different ethnic group in your bloodline many generations ago. From what I have seen of many people’s definition of what a “Pure” Corn is, there perceptions of the reality of the Corn Snake Mutant history and the entire way that Corn Snakes are bought and sold, may not be completely accurate. There are 10’s of thousands of Corns getting mixed up within this big mixing bowl all over the country. They are practically in every Pet Shop and the number one choice of most novice snake keepers. There is no control over their movement at all and as a whole there is a lot more Space Garbage than one might otherwise think there is which can end up just about anywhere.

I am sure that you all know what my opinion is of what we have presented, but what about my goal? It is simple. To find as much information about the genetic Hypos as possible which is the subject in this case. I have my owe ideas of the Corn “Pool” which you may or may not agree with. We certainly have many definitions of what a “Pure” Corn is. I have a little trouble with someone who adjusts his or her position of what constitutes a “Pure” Corn on a case-by-case basis. Some evidence is fact in one case and pure speculation in another, when they are the exact same type of information. I know the Goldust Corns are not 110% Pure Corn snake by anybody’s definition, which is total hype and political spin, but that are certainly 100% Mutant Corn Snakes.

I would like my Corns to be as pure as possible, but based upon what I know, I think the Goldust Motleys are very likely as “Pure” as most if not all of the other Mutant Phases of Corns. The only difference may be a “know” as opposed to “as long as I don’t know” which in the reality of the entire market is perhaps the same thing when we are talking about Triple Homo Mutant Corns. Is a Corn “Pure” that is the product of two parents that look very little alike and are separated by many geographic ranges and hundreds and hundreds of miles, just because they are called Corn Snakes? That kind of cross seems to be pure in name only and a mutt if you consider the genetic make up of the two parents.

There is a pretty big difference between this case and the Creamsicles. We have always known what the Creamsicles are and you have to keep a balance in the mix or you loose the Creamsicles look and uniqueness. If you outcrossed them to Amel Corns a few times, in a very short time they would be as pure as any other Amel Corn and nobody on the planet could “brown bag” test them.

I don’t see why anybody would want to get out of the Goldust Motleys because of the history or lack of history of the Ultra Hypo gene. There is something about them that is very special. It seems to be more than just the Ultra Hypo gene. There seems to be much more extra yellow pigment than even the Caramel gene is adding to the mix. It may be its relationship with Amel that is taking us close to Butter but not quite. Hopefully, since they are in the right hands now, we will discover what the recipe really is for them.

I am curtain that we will begin to discover and isolate some secondary genes very soon. The Goldust may have a gene for extra yellow pigment. The Normal Bloodred has a gene for extra red pigment in some cases and in others it is just the pattern. . It sure seems as if there is a gene that may control the amount of pink pigment in snakes once the outer dominant colors are removed like: Peach Opals and Pearl Opals, Pink Lav and Whitish/gray Lavs, Pink or Pastel Ghost and Gray Ghosts, Pink Snows and Gray and White Snows. I have noticed that one of my Ice Ghost that I am raising, has absolutely no pink colorations at all. I always thought that the saturated pink on the adults was one of their defining characteristics, but it is not in this case, or there is a gene that can completely take away the pink coloration in snakes.

I will add information if I get something, but I think most people have already decided what their opinion is in this matter. Some of us may still have to decide how that opinion may effect how they view our Corn Snake Mutants. What we are left with is a genetically distinct hypo gene that is an allele with amel, which was discovered in a wild caught Corn near Tampa that has its own unique effects on our Mutant Corns.

 

[Vinman]

Hi Ken you know many years and we done a lot of deals in the past. This is not Bs .you know I dont lie .
Serpwidgets you live in a dream world . You cant mess with nature you may mess things up
Like I said before we had to use snakes from suround areas we used snakes that came from the same gene pool from neighboring populations I had to keep these snakes seperate from so there would be know cross contamination to either collection . Who are you to tell me about nature, I been doing conservation work since 1992.Remember we had to get permits from Fish& wildlife. I didn't just do things the way I wanted there were rules I had to follow such as where did I catch each snake what time I caught each one what sex were they how long each one was head photos for Id. purposes. So dont tell me about nature I also w volentered at the Bx. zoo. for afew years and worked at the children zoo one summer. You wrote a panthlet and now you think you know all there is to know about nature. come out of the clouds and back to earth is time for you to come back to the real world . Why don't tell your ideas to the reptile dept at your local zoo and see what they think? Tell them you think it is allright for a hybrid corn to be released into the wild population .Tell them it doesn't matter if the snake has milk or gopher or something else in it Tell it looks pure so its ok . I know what they would say because many years ago I used to think the same as you did and I was vollenteer at reptile house at Bx. zoo and had many of disussions about this same topic I caught a lot of heat and told this type of thinking was very wrong. like I said your name calling doesn't prove you right it makes look folish.(This isn't my profession, it's my hobby.)so since this isnt your profession,and you dont do conservetion work you should not try to talk about things that you don't know about . I done my home work so I have I have more insight than you. I have some credentials to back me up so call me names all you want you still dont make much sense. vinman

 

[Hurley]

you still dont make much sense

Well, that certainly can go both ways.


Enough people. This is ridiculous.

 

[Serpwidgets]

Serpwidgets you live in a dream world

Who are you to tell me about nature

So dont tell me about nature

You wrote a panthlet and now you think you know all there is to know about nature.

come out of the clouds and back to earth is time for you to come back to the real world .

it makes look folish.

you should not try to talk about things that you don't know about .

you still dont make much sense.

Rich, is this what you were talking about?

 

[Serpwidgets]

The Normal Bloodred has a gene for extra red pigment in some cases and in others it is just the pattern.

I think this is just normal variation on the theme, and not necessarily a secondary "rider" gene. It would be nice if there were such a gene though, eh?

It sure seems as if there is a gene that may control the amount of pink pigment in snakes once the outer dominant colors are removed like: Peach Opals and Pearl Opals, Pink Lav and Whitish/gray Lavs, Pink or Pastel Ghost and Gray Ghosts, Pink Snows and Gray and White Snows.

Those "coral" colors are fascinating. It's interesting how an anerythristic or snow corn can have so much "red" on it.

What we are left with is a genetically distinct hypo gene that is an allele with amel, which was discovered in a wild caught Corn near Tampa that has its own unique effects on our Mutant Corns.

Good summary. Can we just delete this whole thread and put that as a new thread in its place?