Ultra Mystery...

[Rich Z]

Heck, I see a tremendous amount of variation just in my straight Caramel Motley clutches. So seeing variance in ones that come out of the Ultra line certainly would not be a surprise. I have some Caramel Motleys that you would be hard pressed to say for certain that they were not Amber Motleys instead.

BTW, I did not produce any GoldDust Motleys this year. Unfortunately, the GoldDust male I got from Mike Shiver is not het for Motley. I could have sworn he said that it was, but I am not certain about that detail. But I know that it is not based on the results of several clutches where I bred him to some Caramel Motleys. But evidently some of those females are het for Amelanism so I did get some GoldDusts (Paramel Caramels.... :crazy02: ... ) to hatch out that are only het for Motley. I probably have photos of those clutches somewhere on my computer, so I'll try to find time to post them later on.

 

[Vinman]

look, my computer I got for 50 dolars the keyboard & mouse were given to me from a friend . I have no camera what is so hard to belive . I'm poor and cant afford one . Don't you think I would have posted some pics. by now? read my ads they you sory no pics . It is so much easyer to sell animals that way. I offerd you an open invation to come to my house and see for your self maby you might have to use the shoting range at rodmens neck I live less than 1 mile away from there . This is the best I can do . vinman

 

[ecreipeoj]

But evidently some of those females are het for Amelanism so I did get some GoldDusts (Paramel Caramels.... :crazy02: ... ) to hatch out that are only het for Motley.

Wouldn't those be "Goldamels"? :crazy02:

 

[ecreipeoj]

Mike, I have been looking at photos of your Goldust Motley and Rich’s Goldust and I don’t see any black or only a speck here or there. When I look through Rich’s photos of Amber and Caramel Motleys I see some black to quite a bit of black like your female has that you are questioning.

Considering the Plain Jane Ultra Hypo and Standard Hypo, genes do not always remove all of the black especially around the blotches, it seems to me that the Goldust may actually be an Ultramel Caramel( Paramel Caramel or Goldamel) what ever you choose to call them.

Have you produced an amel morph out of that female? It seems as if the magical quality of the Ultra is its relationship to amel. It seems to be just another in the long list of hypos otherwise.

 

[Rich Z]

Pics - GoldDust x Amber

 

[Rich Z]

Pics - GoldDust x BloodRed

Apparently the Blood Red is het for Amelanism....

 

[Rich Z]

Pics - GoldDust x Caramel Motley

Also the Caramel is apparently het for Amelanism....

 

[Rich Z]

Pics - some comparison pics

Pics showing GoldDust, Butters, and Caramels together.

 

[Rich Z]

And for further comparison - a regular Amber Motley

This came from my project of Caramel corns het for Motley and regular (whatever that is) Hypomelanism.

 

[Vinman]

Rich post 408 top photo is that a white snake with pale yellow markings atthe bottom of the pile

 

[Rich Z]

Vinny, it's just an Opal from another clutch that hatched out. It was a single animal and I didn't have anywhere else to put it at the time.. I would have preferred that he not be in the photo, but I had to snap what I could at the time.

 

[CrazyCorn]

Rich, did you ever get amels out of those animals before or do they have amel in their lineage?

 

[Rich Z]

Rich, did you ever get amels out of those animals before or do they have amel in their lineage?

As for the Blood Red, this was the first year breeding her. The other ones, I probably have record cards on previous clutches, but it is not all that easy to look up details like that without finding each batch of cards for each season. I don't think most people realize how time consuming it is for me to look up information like that when they request it. Which is why I generally do not provide it without an exceptional reason.

I would expect many of my Caramels to be at least possibly het for Amel just because the Butters and Caramels all showed up at the same time. I rarely get Butters from my Ambers, but I do have a few Ambers that I know are het for Butter as well as some Butters I know are het for Amber. I didn't use any of that line with the GoldDust, however.

 

[Serpwidgets]

Couple things:

1- The mudslinging was not cool. I know that's not why I come to these forums. I'd like to apologize to Rich, and also to anyone who is following this thread looking for good information, for my participation in that.

2- Rich, now that you seem to have a grasp on this thing, does it seem to have any connection to the hypolav mess? Also, do you plan on doing any test crosses this year to see if that might be the case?

3- I've posted a thread detailing the outcomes of every possible cross that can be made with the ultra and amel genes, and their wild-type counterpart. It can be found here: http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?p=100806#post100806

 

[Rich Z]

Chuck,

I am looking with a jaundiced eye at a lot of things I have had hatch out around here lately. I may be looking at something similar in other lines, but the equation of what actually makes them may be subtle. As mentioned before, we are fortunate that the GoldDust is so dramatically striking looking and different enough to catch out eyes. We may not be so lucky with some other possibilities that certainly can arise. I can't think of any reason why this sort of shared locus effect can't happen in any other gene we now know of.

Suppose you have two different incompatible but identical looking Hypos on the same locus and the combo looks the same as either one of those genes?

But how does this work thinking along the lines of the Stripe/Motley? My guess is that the Ultra/Amel mixture will be like combining water and oil in that we can separate each one out later on (I think). But this doesn't seem to work with the Stripe/Motley combos.

Yeah, I think I have a grasp of this, but not sure I welcome the revelation.

 

[Clint Boyer]

Mike,
My Caramel Motley experience is limited. I have absolutly no Ultra exp. From what I've seen in my motleys though, I've seen them from hypo looking to very dark. I think the variation in just the Motley gene alone is enough to steer us in the wrong direction. Now add in the natural variations within Ultra and Caramel and just about anything could happen!

 

[ecreipeoj]

When I was looking through Serps predictions of all of the different combinations possible between Ultra and Amel, I picked up on a few things and something else became very clear to me.

It is very obvious when an Ultramel is bred to an Amel or Het amel. We get both amels and Ultramels in the same clutch. I have been wondering what the Goldust are, but if we remove the Caramel gene, when they are bred to an Amel, both Amel and Ultramels are produced in the same clutches as well. This would indicate that the Goldust are at least Homo Ultramel Caramels.

Mikes, result seems to indicate an Ultramel X Ultra breeding since he is only getting two phenotypes, if we look at his results without the Homo Caramel gene. Based upon this, I would say that the female is an Ultra Caramel Motley and it was bred to an Ultramel Caramel Motley(Goldust) male.

 

[Hurley]

This would indicate that the Goldust are at least Homo Ultramel Caramels.

Since Ultramels are one amel gene and one ultra gene, by definition, they are not homozygous, they are heterozygous for amel and ultra.

 

[Rich Z]

Since Ultramels are one amel gene and one ultra gene, by definition, they are not homozygous, they are heterozygous for amel and ultra.

I am NOT looking forward to explaining that to someone on the buyer's side of the table at a show......

Especially trying to explain THIS:

AA x au = Aa and Au (normal het for either ultra or amel)

But perhaps this is all just an evil plot by Serpwidgets. Make it so that every corn snake breeder in the world selling these Paramels/Ultramels has to provide a copy of his book along with each sale. :devil01: That way we can all just say, "buy the snake and read the darn book. It's all in there and I'm too busy to explain it to you." Next customer, please.......

 

[ecreipeoj]

I think I have made that mistake before! LOL Talk about confusing people, myself included. :crazy02:

I was cleaning snake cages and another possibility came to mind about this whole mystery that we have. I hope this comes out right without getting anybody up set. We are just discussing the possible genetic of this Mutant.

Everybody, that has these very interesting Ultra “Ambers” and hets as they were called does not give Shiver statements much credibility anymore, but we have to at least look at the possibility that some of what he says is a minutely accurate.

The reason the “Shivers email” came to be in the first place which stirred up the second hornets nest of this thread, was that he saw an ad that Mike P was running and he wanted to let him know that he did not think that the snake he saw in the photo would turn out to look like the Ultra “Ambers”. He said that they were not yellow enough. I have also wondered how these snakes in the photos of the Ultra Caramels AKA (Ultra “Ambers”, Goldust) would turn into the “Goldust” Corns as adults. They just seemed to me that they would look closer to a Butter as a hatchling than a Caramel.

The Ultramels are very close to an Amel as a hatchling, so why would a Goldust be very different than a Butter as a hatchling? Rich Z did not hatch out any Goldust this year so we do not have anything to compare the Ultra Caramels to. We have all had to do a lot of guesswork, since the “Facts“ that we have gotten from Shivers and Falcon are basically a mystery. :devil01:

What if the Ultra Caramels that have been hatched out this year are not actually Goldust. (Ultramel Caramels) The clutch Mike hatched out could actually be Ultra Caramel Motleys and Caramel Motleys. I tried and tried to come up with a combo with Ultramel or Ultramel Carmel (Goldust) that would give us the two results that Mike got, but I cannot find a good result with Ultra. The only solution that I could come up with would be a combo with the Standard Hypo gene in the mix. Now, I confused myself! Serp HELP!! :shrugs:

I guess my point is that we really do not know what a Goldust hatchling phenotype looks like and we don’t know what a Ultra Caramel phenotype looks like in reality, because nobody has seen them except for Shivers. Shivers doesn’t have a clue what he really had or how he got them, but he did see them as hatchlings. I did not get the impression that Shivers sent me the email to tell Mike that the snakes in the photos did not look like the Ultra “Ambers” (Ultramel Caramel, Goldust, Het Amel and Ultra Caramel) that he saw as hatchlings out of spite. It seemed more like just an observation that he made and wanted me to relay the message. I have the email if somebody wants to see it.

Hurley, did I get it right? Good grief Het amel and Ultra Caramel Motley. That does it! I am calling them Goldust Motleys. I know they are Goldust Motleys no matter what the genetic make up ends up being.