How do you feel about God.

[SnakeAround]

Logic is an objective thing, it can be sound, like a car is a motor vehicle, but not any motor vehicle is a car. Math is the ultimate sound logic.

 

[Ricky87]

This analysis of logic isn't really accurate. Logic is something that can be universally applied. For example, someone could use logic to say that 2 + 2 = 5, but that doesn't mean their logic is accurate, or true, or even reasonable. Opinions can be logical, but logic is not an opinion. It's objective.

Human beings are notoriously illogical and, when it comes down to it, faith is illogical. This is one of the qualities of faith that makes it significant - that it is belief despite a lack of evidence. If faith was logical, it wouldn't be a test and there would be no significance to it.

Most everyone is in agreement that 2 + 2 = 4. That is logical. Most everyone is in disagreement about the nature of god because it is not logical. This is okay and is not a criticism of faith or belief. I just want to clear up that opinions aren't necessarily logical.

Totally understand your point on logic. It's like with evolution...People use it as a point to prove/disprove God, but armed only with truth we can't come to a conclusion either way. Truthfully when we trace back life to it's most original form you'd have to say it came from something and the farther back you trace it you end up at nothing. Somehow something (like life and the universe) came from nothing. It's like if you woke up and there was a Range Rover sitting in your living room. Logically you would keep wondering how it got there until someone gave you an acceptable answer...The problem with the origin of life is that some people don't even agree that there *is* a Range Rover in their living room. They defy logic that's as real as sight or sound.

More than beliefs I think it's pride that interferes with truth/logic...Everybody believes in something, but the problem is when people conclude they themselves are the only answer. Their truth defeats another persons truth and they make it their life's mission to try and prove it. That's what religion is guilty of and that's what most beliefs in general are guilty of. If we discussed things based only on truth than the world would actually be an incredibly peaceful place regardless of how we view God. Belief in God is *not* the problem...Everybody should have the right to peacefully accept life in their own terms. They just shouldn't try and define it for everyone else. Especially since most people who belief in something don't even live according to their own beliefs. They convince themselves it's the world at large that keeps them from living in their dream-world so they condemn every part of it until nothing is left except them and their beliefs. That's the world in a nutshell IMO.

 

[Ricky87]

Great vision on it Rick!

Thank you!!

 

[Outcast]

This analysis of logic isn't really accurate. Logic is something that can be universally applied. For example, someone could use logic to say that 2 + 2 = 5, but that doesn't mean their logic is accurate, or true, or even reasonable. Opinions can be logical, but logic is not an opinion. It's objective.

Human beings are notoriously illogical and, when it comes down to it, faith is illogical. This is one of the qualities of faith that makes it significant - that it is belief despite a lack of evidence. If faith was logical, it wouldn't be a test and there would be no significance to it.

Most everyone is in agreement that 2 + 2 = 4. That is logical. Most everyone is in disagreement about the nature of god because it is not logical. This is okay and is not a criticism of faith or belief. I just want to clear up that opinions aren't necessarily logical.

Ah, but you see! My statement was completely logical to me, but not you. That was the purpose of the whole thing. Things that are logical to one person, are not logical to everyone else.
It all depends on the person, not everyone believes the same things. Most people only find things logical that fall in line with what they believe. It is very hard to separate ones self from ones beliefs in order to look at something objectively. I do my best to, but it is difficult because, my beliefs make up a lot of who I am.
And, there in lies the problem with trying to tell someone that something that they believe is wrong. When someone believes in something strongly enough, it becomes part of them. When another person comes around making fun of those beliefs it is akin to making fun of the person themselves. That is why many people who believe in God get offended at many statements.
Again, this is logical to me, but maybe not anyone else.

 

[SnakeAround]

Hi think you mix up logic and values. Logic is what can be defined and tested, like: if sugar is bad for your teeth, candies containing sugar are bad for your teeth. That is sound logic. Maybe you disagree that sugar is bad for your teeth, but that does not matter, the logic is still sound.

 

[dave partington]

Hi think you mix up logic and values. Logic is what can be defined and tested, like: if sugar is bad for your teeth, candies containing sugar are bad for your teeth. That is sound logic. Maybe you disagree that sugar is bad for your teeth, but that does not matter, the logic is still sound.

And yet, sugar is a basic building block of life. Thank God for sugar.

 

[Shiari]

Sugar isn't a building block of life. That's what proteins and amino acids are. Sugar is the energy our body uses, but sugar-as-sugar is very short term in its usefulness, which is why people can have a 'crash' after consuming sugar. Consuming protein and fat gives the body a longer term supply of energy through the production and use of glycogen and lipids.

 

[Tavia]

Sugar isn't a building block of life. That's what proteins and amino acids are. Sugar is the energy our body uses, but sugar-as-sugar is very short term in its usefulness, which is why people can have a 'crash' after consuming sugar. Consuming protein and fat gives the body a longer term supply of energy through the production and use of glycogen and lipids.

Blasphemy! Blasphemy! Sugar is too a major building block of life! There is no life worth living without sugar! Praise be to sugar! Begone you blasphemer!

More seriously, I appreciate the lesson in biology.

 

[Shiari]

Biology fascinates me. The often times unnecessary complexity, the jury-rigged aspects of it are things that began driving the wedge that divided me from faith. Reading the bible was the death blow.

I would think that a deity, supposedly omnipotent and omniscient, would have done a better job than this. Why the urogentical system of male sheep? They urinate through a cocktail straw! Why the recurrent inferior laryngeal nerve? Why does this nerve for our voice box, this aspect of a cranial nerve, flow all the way down the heart, underneath the arteries there... and then back up to the top of the throat? Why does it not just... yaknow... go there? Yes, other nerves branch off as it travels... but why not go over, and then down? It's still twice as long as needed. In fish however that's the most direct route. >_> It links to the gills near the heart.

 

[desiredbard]

Well the big question would be...

If there is a God how would she feel about you :madeuce:

And yes there is a god... or did the delusions started during instead of after I bedded those women

 

[SnakeAround]

What if God was one of us, just a stranger on the bus....

 

[Nova_C]

Ah, but you see! My statement was completely logical to me, but not you. That was the purpose of the whole thing. Things that are logical to one person, are not logical to everyone else.
It all depends on the person, not everyone believes the same things. Most people only find things logical that fall in line with what they believe. It is very hard to separate ones self from ones beliefs in order to look at something objectively. I do my best to, but it is difficult because, my beliefs make up a lot of who I am.
And, there in lies the problem with trying to tell someone that something that they believe is wrong. When someone believes in something strongly enough, it becomes part of them. When another person comes around making fun of those beliefs it is akin to making fun of the person themselves. That is why many people who believe in God get offended at many statements.
Again, this is logical to me, but maybe not anyone else.

Logic is not an opinion. It is objective.

This is the same destructive equivocation that has news sources giving homeopaths and psychics equal weight as scientists and researchers.

I am not exaggerating when I say that this 'belief' is harmful to society at large and I hope you spend some time thinking about the end result of your belief. Only bad things can come of it.

 

[SnakeAround]

It took me aging till over 30 year's old to realize that what seems logical to me mostly is part of my subjective belief systems, and that logic is something different.

 

[Outcast]

Logic is not an opinion. It is objective.

This is the same destructive equivocation that has news sources giving homeopaths and psychics equal weight as scientists and researchers.

News sources giving psychics equal weight as scientists and researchers? Please explain, I fear I have stopped watching the news, and do not remember this type of stuff on there when I was watching it.

I got tired of extreme left/ extreme right news sources, and have yet to find one that covers all sides of a story equally. Hence the reason I refuse to watch it.

I am not exaggerating when I say that this 'belief' is harmful to society at large and I hope you spend some time thinking about the end result of your belief. Only bad things can come of it.

Which part is harmful? Or is it all harmful in your opinion?

It is possible to logically state any opinion or belief, but that does not always mean that those opinions or beliefs are logical to other people.
The sentence "I am not following your logic." comes to mind. It is usually said by someone who doesn't quite grasp what is being said by another person, while the other person believes that they are being extremely logical.

In fact, I feel as though you and I are in one such situation. What I am stating is logical to me, but not to you. The biggest reason behind this is most likely our different beliefs.
But again, this is only my opinion, which is logical to me...


Oh and one more thing, your statement is very akin to a Christian stating that if you do not believe in Jesus Christ, you are going to hell.

Here is my explanation for such a line being drawn. Stating that what I believe is what is harmful to society at large, can be seen in the same light as me telling you that you are going to hell...

I personally do not care what anyone else believes. I just wanted to get across the fact that there are extremes here, believers and non believers.

There are a few that are in between, waiting on some irrevocable proof of a God or irrevocable proof that there is not. So far there is only scientific speculation on both sides as to whether or not there is a God.

I choose to believe in God, because of what has happened in my life, which to me proves that God exists. If there is no God, then I do not loose something because of my belief. I still live to be a good person and do the right thing by others.

I hope that this post explains my point a little better.

 

[SnakeAround]

Outcast, suppose you'd say to me: apples taste awful so I prefer to not eat them, I'd understand your logic but not why you do not like apples. It would be weird if I'd say 'I don't understand you cause I do like apples'. I'd perfectly understand you, the fact that I do like them would not chance that. You seem to think that the logic part is about liking the apple, but that is a set personal value that has nothing to do with logic. Logic is the fact that you prefer not to eat them..

Edit: thinking about it, even that is not true logic since others might still eat stuff they do not like for other reasons... Sigh. But still, it is reasoning most people would agree with. The true logic might be: 'if I do not eat stuff I do not like ever, I won't eat apples because they taste awful '

 

[Outcast]

For things as simple as likes and dislikes of fruit, logic is very easy to discern. My point was that it is very hard when it comes to topics of a religious matter, add politics to that list as well.. Logic is not so cut and dry as some of you guys seem to believe.

 

[SnakeAround]

For things as simple as likes and dislikes of fruit, logic is very easy to discern. My point was that it is very hard when it comes to topics of a religious matter, add politics to that list as well.. Logic is not so cut and dry as some of you guys seem to believe.

Well I still think you have another idea of what logic is than what is it...

The science or art of exact reasoning, or of pure and formal thought, or of the laws according to which the processes of pure thinking should be conducted; the science of the formation and application of general notions; the science of generalization, judgment, classification, reasoning, and systematic arrangement; correct reasoning.

Read more: http://www.brainyquote.com/words/lo/logic185714.html#ixzz1jBniYX1J

One could totally understand people's logic, yet not agree. Logic starts when the values are set; e.g.; an apple tastes bad, muscled men are beautiful, snakes are interesting, God exists, anything that is subjectibe should be set before one can start analysing someone's reasoning. That is what is done on thesises for graduating; is the reasoning correct, even if I do not agree on the subjective stuff. That is why in papers like those the writer always adds loads of theory to start from.

 

[Nova_C]

Except it is.

Logic does not mean what you think it means.

I say your belief that logic is subjective (Because that is exactly what you are saying) is harmful because it is exactly the same idea that a Chiropractor has as much authority to speak about vaccination as a immunologist or virologist.

Basically, logic requires (REQUIRES) a base to start from. In your case, you have logically decided to belief in God because a base set of assumptions. I'm not sure what they are, but to keep things simple, let's say the base assumption is, it is impossible for life to have come into existence by random chance. Logically, there must have been a creator.

This is where my argument against opinion as logic comes in because the base assumption is erroneous. It is not impossible. Because the base assumption is erroneous, the logic is faulty and the conclusion, based on that logic, is wrong.

This is why logic is not an opinion. Logic is simply the rules that you follow to reach a conclusion. If you start with a bad assumption (Such as prodding someone's spine can affect the immune system), then all conclusions drawn from that assumption need to be discarded.

The problem is that people such as you are convinced that the bad starting assumptions are irrelevant as long as there is a logical path from point a to point b. In essence, this notion that everyone's conclusions are deserving of consideration is harmful to society because, in my vaccination example, it has convinced huge numbers of people to NOT vaccinate their children, thereby undermining the herd immunity protection and encouraging the infection of dangerous viruses that we have nearly eradicated.

Not only that, but it encourages the continued evolution of those viruses into strains that vaccines are not effective against and putting everyone in danger. So yes, your belief is harmful to society because it encourages this kind of doublethink.

PS. Religion is illogical by nature.

PPS. I am not attempting to criticise your faith in this post, I am illustrating an example and no, I do not assume anything about why you believe. I do not know your reasons and it's not important. The example above is just that, an example.

 

[Outcast]

Ok, I see your point. But I still hold to my beliefs. I understand now what you mean by logic and stand corrected on that plane, but, it is very interesting how you talk about the belief in God as you do the reverence of a Chiropractor.

My in-laws go to Chiropractors for bone issues, nothing more. I did not know that they promoted not getting vaccinated. I may end up seeing a Chiropractor for my back issue's because I want to exhaust all avenues before I get cut on. The surgery that I was told that I may need has a 1 in 3 chance of working and a 1 in 3 chance of making my pain worse. I however do not believe that prodding my spine will keep me from getting sick.

And as for my original thoughts on the topic of logic, I was not able to put them in the correct words, but I do think I can now. Everyone can use logic to make their own opinions sound logical. Just as you use logic to make the belief of something sound illogical, while to me the belief in God is logical for me.

Do you see what I am saying now? Belief in God is logical to me, but illogical to you.
I am not trying to push my beliefs on anyone, but it seems more and more often I am seeing people try and push the "your dumb if you believe in God" on those who do believe. Even if they are using well thought out sentences and scientific facts.
You are right though, Faith is illogical. It is the reason it is called Faith.
faith
   /feɪθ/ Show Spelled[feyth] Show IPA
noun
1.
confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's ability.
2.
belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact.
3.
belief in God or in the doctrines or teachings of religion: the firm faith of the Pilgrims.
4.
belief in anything, as a code of ethics, standards of merit, etc.: to be of the same faith with someone concerning honesty.
5.
a system of religious belief: the Christian faith; the Jewish faith.

Oh, and something doesn't have to be logical to be true to the person who believes it. Anything is possible, and not everything has been figured out yet. Which is why I am glad that God gave us the ability to reason and try to find out more about everything around us. I am also glad that He gave us the ability to ask questions and find answers. Life would be so boring if everyone believed the same thing.

 

[SnakeAround]

Except it is.

Logic does not mean what you think it means.

I say your belief that logic is subjective (Because that is exactly what you are saying) is harmful because it is exactly the same idea that a Chiropractor has as much authority to speak about vaccination as a immunologist or virologist.

Basically, logic requires (REQUIRES) a base to start from. In your case, you have logically decided to belief in God because a base set of assumptions. I'm not sure what they are, but to keep things simple, let's say the base assumption is, it is impossible for life to have come into existence by random chance. Logically, there must have been a creator.

This is where my argument against opinion as logic comes in because the base assumption is erroneous. It is not impossible. Because the base assumption is erroneous, the logic is faulty and the conclusion, based on that logic, is wrong.

This is why logic is not an opinion. Logic is simply the rules that you follow to reach a conclusion. If you start with a bad assumption (Such as prodding someone's spine can affect the immune system), then all conclusions drawn from that assumption need to be discarded.

The problem is that people such as you are convinced that the bad starting assumptions are irrelevant as long as there is a logical path from point a to point b. In essence, this notion that everyone's conclusions are deserving of consideration is harmful to society because, in my vaccination example, it has convinced huge numbers of people to NOT vaccinate their children, thereby undermining the herd immunity protection and encouraging the infection of dangerous viruses that we have nearly eradicated.

Not only that, but it encourages the continued evolution of those viruses into strains that vaccines are not effective against and putting everyone in danger. So yes, your belief is harmful to society because it encourages this kind of doublethink.

PS. Religion is illogical by nature.

PPS. I am not attempting to criticise your faith in this post, I am illustrating an example and no, I do not assume anything about why you believe. I do not know your reasons and it's not important. The example above is just that, an example.

I think that the problem is not that many people do think that logic is subjective, they are just convinced that their assumptions are facts. They might even apply solid reasoning ( a chiropractor is a doctor (the bad assumption) so he knows what he is saying) but as long as they do not know that chiropractors are not doctors, they will keep believing them as like they were doctors. As I stated earlier, I have trouble respecting those people who believe in God without seeing the illogical sides of it because they are raised that way or just don't want to see them, because they do not think themselves about it critically. Those are the ones that might get fanatic or start bothering non believers. The ones that know that it is based on faith, not sound reasoning or facts seem to have more respect for non believers and are more open to discussion about it. Them I respect, I might even understand their reasoning, though based on assumptions I do not share.

In general I think people should only have opinions if they know enough about the subject to build a solid case of reasoning. That is why I have personally not voted for political stuff until a couple of years ago. I did not feel like I knew enough and did not feel like reading up into it. The last couple of years I do vote, but not without at least reading up a bit on the main subjects and do some voting tests (we can choose from many parties).