How do you feel about God.

[dave partington]

I miss Lavender.

 

[Outcast]

I believe you believe this. Some people who are raped and beaten also believe that this treatment was well deserved. Some even empathize with their captors and take up their cause. There are of course studies on this as well.

I understand there are studies on what is called Stockholm Syndrome.

Sorry, but the punishment/reward system has been around for a very long time, and it works. Your system seems to be a relatively new way of doing things in comparison to the time that humans have been on this earth. In fact, I run into kids that have never been spanked, nor punished for their wrong doings. They are the most obnoxious, disrespectful children that I have ever met, and their parents are just as bad as they are...

On the other hand, I have met kids who have never needed punishment, because they never really did much to deserve it. (These are very few and far between, and their parents are extremely lucky.)

As for me, I prefer not to be told how to raise my future kids, because spanking has its place, just like talking has its place, and the corner has its place.

Just a little experience from my personal observations, usually the ones who have never had a spanking are the ones most desperately in need of one. They don't realize that actions have consequences.

 

[captainjack0000]

I blame this thread for getting this song stuck in my head.

 

[Kokopelli]

Moderate physical violance accompanied humanity since... well... ever, and in the natural world, it still happens.

Human beings are social animals, and I would imagine that on some primal level, we need the same limits and frames to be set to us by our family just as much as any other animal does.

It doesn't mean seriously hitting children is a valid educational tool- but for a seriously bad act to be followed by a physical response... I'm not sure it's something that needs to disappear.
I experienced, from time to time, a slap and the like... I am not emotionally scarred because of it...

When I end up being a parent, only then will I seriously see and know how I choose to raise up my children... but until then, looking at the facts, I do not side with the notion that children are never to be spanked- in fact, I see more and more children and adolescents that disrespect their parents and permit themselves to act in a very rude and obnoxious manner. I'm quite sure that this is simply bad parenting.

As for religion being tied with 11/9.... Religion was always a tool in the hands of a select few to gain personal power to themselves and manipulate others... but it is not the sole territory of Religion.

Symbolic concepts and idealogies have proven to be just as effective... patriotism led to horrible acts... race superiority is another concept that brought to pass some of the worst events in history...

When you have an oppressed people, and someone charismatic enough that promises them "salvation"... well... history proved it's a very effective way to do bad things.

But, the fact that religion -can- have a negative application does not make it inheretly evil or bad.
Guns too can be used for many purposes- the fact that they -can- be used by murderers doesn't make them evil.

 

[Mark Dwight]

It doesn't mean seriously hitting children is a valid educational tool- but

What's the difference between spanking and hitting?
If I used a belt to hit a adult I would go to prison for assault (and maybe assault with a weapon.) But do the exact same thing to a little child and it's called a spanking. Violence teaches violence, hitting makes hitters and abuse creates abusers.

 

[MysticExotics]

I want the unicorn that poops rainbows!

Don't they all?

What if it just has gas??

Rainbow colored clouds?

What about skittles....?

What's the difference between spanking and hitting?
If I used a belt to hit a adult I would go to prison for assault (and maybe assault with a weapon.) But do the exact same thing to a little child and it's called a spanking. Violence teaches violence, hitting makes hitters and abuse creates abusers.

So are you saying that those of us that were spanked as children, maybe even with a metal or wooden serving spoon, or even a belt grow up to to be violent? Huh. I guess I didn't learn that one growing up. I think I turned out pretty good.

 

[Mark Dwight]

So are you saying that those of us that were spanked as children, maybe even with a metal or wooden serving spoon, or even a belt grow up to to be violent? Huh. I guess I didn't learn that one growing up. I think I turned out pretty good.

I'm glad to hear that. Others haven't been so lucky. For a child living in fear of the belt life can be shear torture. And this causes many mental and emotional problems which affect them though out their entire lives and they continue the circle of hitting their own child.

http://www.chicagonow.com/running-w...spanking-can-psychologically-damage-children/

 

[diamondlil]

I suppose this thread will get necromanced every now and then, ruffle feathers, raise hackles, then die down in wait for more takers............ Like everyone else here I'm more convinced by my own views than I ever will be by someone else's. Unless they pull the 'Flaming heart Jesus Elvis' masterstroke, which is hard to argue with.

 

[MysticExotics]

I'm glad to hear that. Others haven't been so lucky. For a child living in fear of the belt life can be shear torture. And this causes many mental and emotional problems which affect them though out their entire lives and they continue the circle of hitting their own child.

http://www.chicagonow.com/running-w...spanking-can-psychologically-damage-children/

There is a difference between spanking & beating.
The mentality of those that instill fear in children are not just spanking their children.

 

[chris68]

I'm much more interested in the history of religions vs their actual, man made content. When Constantine decreed Christianity as the state religion he mixed in several aspects of the worship of Sol Invictus to appease those followers and ease tensions between them and Christians. It is probably one of the most brilliant political moves in history.

 

[rich333]

What about skittles....?
.

Not sure.....

But i Think you get those when the Unicorn is constipated.

 

[Carpe Serpentis]

http://www.apa.org/monitor/2012/04/spanking.aspx

http://articles.cnn.com/2009-09-16/...dy-author-and-research-scientist?_s=PM:HEALTH

The research is out there that shows that spanking is detrimental to a childs well-being. 30 countries have outlawed spanking and with good reasons. You can have your blind beliefs, just don't expect those that actually research to follow those blind beliefs. People have been beating animals, raping, murdering, killing in the name of their god, etc. for a long time as well. It doesn't make these acts right however.

 

[Outcast]

1st article

“The studies do not discriminate well between non-abusive and overly severe types of corporal punishment,” Larzelere says. “You get worse outcomes from corporal punishment than from alternative disciplinary techniques only when it is used more severely or as the primary discipline tactic.”
In a meta-analysis of 26 studies, Larzelere and a colleague found that an approach they described as “conditional spanking” led to greater reductions in child defiance or anti-social behavior than 10 of 13 alternative discipline techniques, including reasoning, removal of privileges and time out (Clinical Child and Family Psychology Review, 2005). Larzelere defines conditional spanking as a disciplinary technique for 2- to 6-year-old children in which parents use two open-handed swats on the buttocks only after the child has defied milder discipline such as time out.

Hmmm......

2nd Study,

The new research refutes the idea that more aggressive children are more likely to be spanked, Berlin said. On the other hand, the study did find that children who were fussier at age 1 were more likely to be spanked and verbally punished, she said.

Verbal punishment did not appear to have the same detrimental effects as spanking in this study, Berlin said.

Some remain unconvinced that parents should never spank their children. Robert Larzelere, associate professor of human development and family science at Oklahoma State University, conducted a meta-analysis of 26 studies on the subject, and found that, overall, spanking seemed more effective than 10 of 13 alternative disciplinary methods for getting a child to behave or do as asked.
Much of the research on the subject does not clearly demonstrate a causal link, Larzelere said. For example, in comparing studies, children who are spanked and children who are taken to psychologists both are more likely to have aggressive behavior later, he said.

The best use of spanking, Larzelere said, is in children between the ages of 2 and 6 when milder discipline tactics, such as time out, fail.

"That's why psychologists trained parents to use spanking that way for 25 years [from the] late '60s to mid-'90s," he said. Now, the trend of advice is away from spanking, but there's not much hard evidence to support it, he said.

Berlin's study focused on particularly early ages, Larzelere noted; much of the spanking literature focuses on ages 2 and older. Twelve months is probably too early to spank children, but there's no established point between ages 1 and 2 at which it is appropriate, he said.

If your studies would have included low, medium, and high income families and violent tendencies in the children as compared to the way they are punished, or not punished, it would have been more convincing...

I also find it interesting how both studies cite Larzelere, who doesn't seem to agree with your line of thought.

All in all, I have not seen anything yet, posted by you, to prove to me that I am more violent due to being spanked, when it was needed.

I hope you can see through your "blind believe", that people who believe in spanking their children are following a "blind belief", and in fact, that some of the science backs up "conditional spanking" as a form of punishment....

 

[Carpe Serpentis]

"Many studies have shown that physical punishment — including spanking, hitting and other means of causing pain — can lead to increased aggression, antisocial behavior, physical injury and mental health problems for children. Americans’ acceptance of physical punishment has declined since the 1960s, yet surveys show that two-thirds of Americans still approve of parents spanking their kids.

But spanking doesn’t work, says Alan Kazdin, PhD, a Yale University psychology professor and director of the Yale Parenting Center and Child Conduct Clinic. “You cannot punish out these behaviors that you do not want,” says Kazdin, who served as APA president in 2008. “There is no need for corporal punishment based on the research. We are not giving up an effective technique. We are saying this is a horrible thing that does not work.”

"Evidence of harm
On the international front, physical discipline is increasingly being viewed as a violation of children’s human rights. The United Nations Committee on the Rights of the Child issued a directive in 2006 calling physical punishment “legalized violence against children” that should be eliminated in all settings through “legislative, administrative, social and educational measures.” The treaty that established the committee has been supported by 192 countries, with only the United States and Somalia failing to ratify it.

Around the world, 30 countries have banned physical punishment of children in all settings, including the home. The legal bans typically have been used as public education tools, rather than attempts to criminalize behavior by parents who spank their children, says Elizabeth Gershoff, PhD, a leading researcher on physical punishment at the University of Texas at Austin.

“Physical punishment doesn’t work to get kids to comply, so parents think they have to keep escalating it. That is why it is so dangerous,” she says.

 

[Carpe Serpentis]

http://psychcentral.com/news/2008/02/29/spanking-raises-risk-of-later-sexual-problems/1990.html

A meta-analysis of spanking studies found 93 percent agreement among studies that spanking can lead to such problems as delinquent and anti-social behavior in childhood along with aggression, criminal and anti-social behavior and spousal or child abuse as an adult.

The researchers suggested that children whose parents spanked, slapped, hit or threw objects at them may have a greater chance of physically or verbally coercing a sexual partner, engaging in risky sexual behavior or engaging in masochistic sex, including sexual arousal by spanking. The researchers warned, however, that this is not a one-to-one or causal relationship.

The study also found that 90 percent of U.S. parents spank toddlers.

After 30 years of studying corporal punishment, Murray Straus, a spanking expert, concluded, “parents should never, ever spank because, although it does work, it’s no better than non-hitting methods that don’t have harmful side effects. If there was an FDA for spanking, they’d say use an alternative that doesn’t have harmful side effects.”

 

[Outcast]

Being that is has been found, in one of your studies that you posted, that selective spanking had a better impact on bad behavior than 10 out of 13 of the alternative ways taught. I will stick to my guns. There is a time an a place for everything, and while I agree that spanking is not always the answer, it is sometimes called for, as shown in previous studies that you posted.

 

[Carpe Serpentis]

Just because something works does not mean that it is safe and without unintended consequences. For me, I have to weigh the pros and cons of something before traveling down a road that will give me the immediate desired results while potentially creating so much more damage than it helps to prevent. Children are too precious to simply go with what is easiest or fastest for us as a parent. You are teaching your children it is okay to use force and violence against a loved one to get what you want. I think your more intelligent than to have to rely on those tactics to get the desired behaviors you are after. I know I am. I've successfully raised my children without spanking and they are much better behaved than many other children who have been spanked. I can honestly say, I feel like I have model citizens as children whom anyone would be proud to call their own. They don't act out, get angry, yell, talk back, or get aggressive, but then I've failed to teach them these things by the loving way I interact with them. Never hitting, yelling, or getting emotional in my approaches with them. Believe it or not, children want to be loved, appreciated, cared for, and known they are valuable contributing members of their family and society when properly raised without the use of violence. I know mine are.

 

[Outcast]

I can honestly say, I feel like I have model citizens as children.

You and just about every other parent out there.

I hear it all the time, "my child would never!" And, that is from parents who do not discipline their children. Oh, and these are low income families...

 

[Carpe Serpentis]

Confirmation bias.... My children clean up and have adopted a highway. They love feeding the poor, donating clothes, toys, etc. They go to state parks and clean up. They don't complain about doing these things. They enjoy these things. You may never see the evidence due to your own confirmation bias, but it is something that others will see if they look at the many studies out there. This is why 30 countries have ruled that spanking be outlawed, because the research shows that spanking does more harm than good.

 

[Outcast]

I have also met children, as stated before, that never were spanked, and were some of the best behaved children that I have ever met.... Those, in my experience, are the exception, not the rule. I can turn your "confirmation bias" around on you too, see?

Not all of the research shows that it does more harm than good. As pointed out more than once since you got on this tangent.

Beating on the other hand, does do harm nearly 100% of the time. There is a difference in spanking a child, and having them understand why they are being spanked, then popping off in anger and beating them.

I have personally experienced both. Only once has my father ever beaten me, and I could barely sit down for a couple of hours, and had red marks on my butt for a couple of days. I was in my early teens, when I started to push the limits, and got very cocky.

With my experiences in both, I know that I would not beat my children, but cool off and explain to them why what they did warrants a spanking. This way they understand the punishment that they are receiving for their actions.

But, like what was stated in your studies earlier, that they did not differentiate between conditional spanking and abusive spanking/beating/verbal abuse....

I really am getting tired of repeating how those studies do not prove much, because of the bias going into them, the picking of certain portions of the population in order to prove the point and support the hypothesis...