Palmetto Heritable

[SODERBERGD]

You are correct about one thing . . .

This is an exclusive project-you will need more than money-I suspect these will be sold by invitation only-the masses will be SOL for at least 5 years

It will be a select group of people that will buy them. They will only be sold to that select group of people with $4k of snake budget. They will be sold to customers, only in the order in which the orders were received, but I plan to have quite a few next year. You see, people think that breeders have a secret society in which we covet morphs among ourselves. I prefer to get as many out there as possible, because as Rich Z said, one generation after selling them, people will begin selling theirs for less than $4K. They'll reason that since they're not the originator, they won't be able to sell them for full price. Regardless of their logic, it would be dumb for me to sell them only to my friends and colleagues - ignoring paying customers. Were I to do that, 20 people that wanted to give me $4K each spent their snake dollars elsewhere. Then, when someone ratchets down price on this morph, it will be too late for me to get $4K each. Hence, the more people that line up with cash in their hands in 2012, the better it is for me AND for the industry.

Don

 

[kgmax1228]

Sales

i am sure you have a waiting list

 

[SODERBERGD]

Officially, no . .

i am sure you have a waiting list

Actually, there are about eight that have requested being on the list, but there is no list yet. In about two weeks, I'll post a way for people to get on that list in order. In keeping with our standard reservation policies, those that prepay for theirs will be first to get them, followed by those that put down a 25% deposit. After filling those orders, we start on the reservation list of those expressed interest. They will be given only a few days to respond to my email of availability (otherwise, if 30 people are on the list, it could take 30 weeks for me to get down to everyone that expressed interest. The one thing everyone can count on is that opportunities to get them will be strictly by the lists. Nobody cuts in front of others in line.

Don

 

[girlundertherainbow]

very professional

and that gives me time to play the lotto

and that said,

if nothing else comes of it that original snake is gorgeous. what an awesome find.

 

[Rich Z]

So, what happened to those animals in excess of the 2.2 you held back from each pairing?

People are not going to want to hear this, but when I told Daryl the A to that Q yesterday, he about fainted right there on the phone. All the other hets were sold to my customers as common corns last year, but I never sold pairs to anyone, and almost never revealed the SMR id. I flubbed up twice by putting the SMR id for that genetic pairing on the lid of the shipping containers, but in so much as my typical customers that order Common corns rarely buy them to breed, I didn't lose sleep over it. It's not like I scribed on the lid PALMETTO HET CORN. Hence, there are about 20 of those gems floating around out there right now, but don't get any ideas, folks. I very seldom sell corns in bulk and have never had a wholesale price list. AND NO, I'm not trying to get people to order Common corns from me this year. Just answering Rich's question.

Yeah, I hear that. I used to worry about such things, but once I started bulking out normals and such in bags of 100 lots, it wasn't much of a concern any longer. The chances of someone luckily matching a male and female from the same genetic stock, particularly when the person I sold them to was probably mixing up ALL of the thousand or two I sent him together, was so slim as to be a negligible concern. Heck, if I were you I would RAISE my prices on normals sold retail and note that there is a POSSIBILITY that any one of them COULD be het for "Palmetto". I think they would sell quite well that way.

Honestly, if I were in Don's shoes, I doubt I would sell any of them for at least 6 years. Maybe longer. Give myself time enough to establish full visuals of every combo I could think of before selling them at all.

Don't think the thought didn't cross my mind. I had four of them sold to trusting customers before I even revealed to them what they were. Literally all four of the customers (2 in the U.S., one in the UK, and one in Germany) offered me $4K each for them without even knowing their color and/or general appearance. I just told them they were unique and never before seen in the corn snake industry. After considerable deliberation (and sharp criticism from Daryl and Jim, I elected to disappoint at least four people this year, and sell only females in 2012. I will likely sell only females again in 2013, and when I finally decide to part with the gender powerhouses (males), you can bet the price will be scary. After telling one guy I was not going to sell them this year, he offered me $10K for a pair of babies. When I said "no", he asked me to name the price. As you point out, Rich, once they're out there, all those that would be tickled to sell them for $2K each will be clawing for top market position. We dreamed about a white corn that was not a hybrid product. Honestly, I didn't think I'd be lucky enough to land something this rare, but knowing this is the biggest thing to hit our industry and knowing I can't sell corns forever, I'm doling them out sparingly. And "yes", Rich, I really should have put off selling them until 2015, but a many of you are aware, I have secret projects in the works that may eclipse this one. Stay tuned . . . (ps - I hate when other say that, but I just couldn't help myself. I just hope I learned from the master well enough to keep them under wraps until the right moment. I'm usually the first one to let the catsnake outta the bag.

Hell Don, don't dilute the excitement of THIS project with hints of others. One thing you DON'T want people to do is to hold onto their money now thinking about what else you might come up with. Let them spend their money on THIS project. If new projects shake more money out of them, so much the better for you. :grin01:

It appears that Don has a complete monopoly on them at this time. That is extremely rare. And it ends when you sell ANY of the stock. In most cases, you don't realize you have something unique until gene carriers have already been sold off and spread out all over creation. Since the gene came from a wild caught, it is HIGHLY unlikely to just show up anywhere else spontaneously.

Yes, this is a first for me. Most of the time, new morph compounds are do-able by anyone. Their genetic components are already in the corn snake genetic tool box for anyone to contrive. This is the first time I haven't felt the hot breath of runners behind me in the race. I thought about holding them for several years, but I don't know how many more years I'll be doing this. Holding them one more year will work for (before my next surprise is revealed) and cornsnake breeders will appreciate that they were available sooner than later. :shrugs:

Yeah man... I wish I had a dime for everyone who would ask me what the genetic formula was for one cultivar or another, then instead of paying the money to get the full visual, would walk away from the tables saying they would just create their own. Most people do not fully comprehend how much goes into creating multi-homozygous animals, apparently. So I just shook my head and smiled to myself at their naive perspective.

Seriously, since you have the corner on the market for these, and you can only sell the first group of them to your competitors ONCE, hold onto them till you can make a KILLING. Yeah, I know the years are wearing you down as well as they did me, and the siren call of retirement has to be getting stronger. So how would being able to sell 100 snakes at $4K each help that retirement fund?

Think hard about this, buddy, you only get ONE shot on this merry go round with this particular critter. I don't think anyone could blame you for looking out for your own best interests. Heck, no one else certainly will for you...

 

[DMong]

Wow Don!,.....I was talking to Jim G. a while back, and told him that all I really wanted to know was what the normal hets looked like. He replied absolutely textbook phenotype normal cornsnakes. I knew I could trust this was indeed the case anyway, and those great detailed photos you took certainly prove just that.

Best wishes with those little gems........you incredibly lucky BA$$&#@!!!..LOL!!!


~Doug

 

[Jim Godfrey]

I consider myself honored just to have held the original Palmetto. It was so hard to keep tight lips while the trait was proven. The photographs are wonderful, but, as with most things, nothing compares to putting your eyes directly on it. The guy has a great disposition to boot. I am truly thrilled for Don.

 

[DMong]

I consider myself honored just to have held the original Palmetto. It was so hard to keep tight lips while the trait was proven. The photographs are wonderful, but, as with most things, nothing compares to putting your eyes directly on it. The guy has a great disposition to boot. I am truly thrilled for Don.

Yeah Jim, I can certainly imagine how all that secrecy must have gnawed at you guys.........almost like you needed a prescription of xanax or valium to help contain the anxiety for that long a period...HAHAA!!

I would fully agree, looking at the snake in-hand would have to be far more exhilarating than any photos could ever do. I can just picture how many times that snake's head was held directly next to other rats and corns heads under good lighting for close examination and scrutiny as well...:roflmao:


later bud, ~Doug

 

[Outcast]

I already know where I am going to put my Palmetto, if I can ever get one... This will be my display snake..LOL

 

[kgmax1228]

Retirement-One Bullet

Yeah, I hear that. I used to worry about such things, but once I started bulking out normals and such in bags of 100 lots, it wasn't much of a concern any longer. The chances of someone luckily matching a male and female from the same genetic stock, particularly when the person I sold them to was probably mixing up ALL of the thousand or two I sent him together, was so slim as to be a negligible concern. Heck, if I were you I would RAISE my prices on normals sold retail and note that there is a POSSIBILITY that any one of them COULD be het for "Palmetto". I think they would sell quite well that way.



Hell Don, don't dilute the excitement of THIS project with hints of others. One thing you DON'T want people to do is to hold onto their money now thinking about what else you might come up with. Let them spend their money on THIS project. If new projects shake more money out of them, so much the better for you. :grin01:



Yeah man... I wish I had a dime for everyone who would ask me what the genetic formula was for one cultivar or another, then instead of paying the money to get the full visual, would walk away from the tables saying they would just create their own. Most people do not fully comprehend how much goes into creating multi-homozygous animals, apparently. So I just shook my head and smiled to myself at their naive perspective.

Seriously, since you have the corner on the market for these, and you can only sell the first group of them to your competitors ONCE, hold onto them till you can make a KILLING. Yeah, I know the years are wearing you down as well as they did me, and the siren call of retirement has to be getting stronger. So how would being able to sell 100 snakes at $4K each help that retirement fund?

Think hard about this, buddy, you only get ONE shot on this merry go round with this particular critter. I don't think anyone could blame you for looking out for your own best interests. Heck, no one else certainly will for you...

Don,Rich is right-every day is 1 step closer to the grave-make a killing while you can-Rich ,you are correct about the naive perspective of people who have not done the work-all they see is the finished product

 

[Blue Apple Herps]

I don't speak BALL, so I don't know which two ball pythons are bred together to produce all white ones, but who saw that coming since neither genetic contributors were white in appearance? I think there are many ball python mutations that do that. They unexpectedly alter phenotypes in subsequent compound filial products. Hence, as someone else said (sorry I don't recall whom), we'll know what is possible in Palmetto compounds only when we fiddle with their genetics.

First off, this is awesome!! It really is a cool snake and even cooler that its not just a fluke but actually inheritable.

I'll just chime in with my 2¢ here. At first I was with Walter (and still am for the most part) regarding what can be done here. I would imagine not much, it would be cool to be able to get different colored "spots" on the palmetto (caramel, lavender, anery, etc). But I don't know about blood, motley, etc. But I do agree that the breedings and combos need to be done.

Bring up bps for a second, there are a zillion alleles that make blue-eyed leucistic (BEL) ball pythons. The hets are visual incomplete dominant (though actually called co-dominant) morphs in their own right and make some amazing combos with other genes. However, their homozygous form is an all white snake with blue eyes (though some exceptions, but that isn't relevant here). So it was widely believed that the homozygous form would be as far as you could take it.

However, an albino BEL was made, called the polar ball, which most people thought would be a white snake with pink eyes. Turned out to be also very pink and have a lot of pattern. So my point here, in relating it back to bps, is that you never know until you do the cross. I never would have thought an albino BEL would look like it did, but in the end, it was good that someone did the cross.

So I will be curious as to what happens when palmetto starts to be crossed out into other morphs. Hopefully something cool will happen with palmetto as it did in bps.

(attached picture of BEL and albino BEL just for reference - maybe something like this will happen with palmetto + other genes?) (note pics are from google search and are not mine)

 

[DMong]

So show us some type of real color on one of those BEL's?. A "snow" looking Palmetto would be like driving in reverse to work everyday. :roflmao:

Don't get me wrong, of course it will and should be bred to all sorts of things, only the bleached out example you posted wasn't the best for promoting this particular animal, as color flecking is the main attraction to the palmetto in my opinion in the first place. Gosh, there are so many multi-morphs that basically look like ordinary snows in the hobby now it is staggering when amel and anery are part of the equation. Of course in those cases it isn't always about what the one phenotype looks like, but what it can also produce when introduced to the right combination mate.

Anyway, I know what you meant there, just that a bland Palmetto would pretty much defeat the purpose. All this will happen to them anyway though, given time. Until then, some colors with the white is their whole charm to me.

As it stands now though, ANYTHING to do with the brand-new gene is absolutely "cutting-edge" stuff for sure.



~Doug

 

[Blue Apple Herps]

So show us some type of real color on one of those BEL's?. A "snow" looking Palmetto would be like driving in reverse to work everyday. :roflmao:

Don't get me wrong, of course it will and should be bred to all sorts of things, only the bleached out example you posted wasn't the best for promoting this particular animal, as color flecking is the main attraction to the palmetto in my opinion in the first place. Gosh, there are so many multi-morphs that basically look like ordinary snows in the hobby now it is staggering when amel and anery are part of the equation. Of course in those cases it isn't always about what the one phenotype looks like, but what it can also produce when introduced to the right combination mate.

Anyway, I know what you meant there, just that a bland Palmetto would pretty much defeat the purpose. All this will happen to them anyway though, given time. Until then, some colors with the white is their whole charm to me.

As it stands now though, ANYTHING to do with the brand-new gene is absolutely "cutting-edge" stuff for sure.



~Doug

My point wasn't that this is what I was hoping our think or wish the palmetto combos would turn out, its that you just never know what the combos will produce.

 

[DMong]

My point wasn't that this is what I was hoping our think or wish the palmetto combos would turn out, its that you just never know what the combos will produce.

Oh, I hear ya........that's exactly what I figured you meant anyway. I just thought I would throw it out there just for the heck of it. I think we(and everyone else) is looking forward to whatever other colors and pattern types it has to offer, as well as simply the morph itself just as is.



~Doug

 

[Rich Z]

I consider myself honored just to have held the original Palmetto. It was so hard to keep tight lips while the trait was proven. The photographs are wonderful, but, as with most things, nothing compares to putting your eyes directly on it. The guy has a great disposition to boot. I am truly thrilled for Don.

Heck, it's also pretty darn scary to have the ONLY ONE of something in existence that could die any day. It's a heck of a responsibility....

 

[DMong]

Heck, it's also pretty darn scary to have the ONLY ONE of something in existence that could die any day. It's a heck of a responsibility....

Don will find that very comforting too, I'm sure Rich..LOL!

It's true though, and I'm sure that has crossed his mind many times. I'll bet Jim made sure the lid was on real good while it was at his place too.

Jim walks into snake room the next morning after feeding the Palmetto........ "HUUHH"???!!!!!!
followed by the super-slow motion drama movie NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!

HAHAA!!


~Doug

 

[Nanci]

Nothing wrong with whitesnakes! I've got a bunch of them, and each morph is different from the others.

 

[Toddsnake]

Breeding Capacity

Don, How many females have you bred with him this season, and what morphs.....if that information is not "Classified"? Is there a certain number
per season a male can breed?

Todd :eatpointe

 

[SODERBERGD]

Update -- July 10, 2011

Sorry for not stayin in touch.
I'm on the road until tomorrow (Monday). Tammie called today to say the 13 eggs I cut a couple of days ago as I was leaving (I knew I'd be out of town on day 62) were becoming active. Two heads were sticking out as of noon and both were white. Fingers crossed for many more.

When I get back, I'll try to respond to other posts on this thread, though I know most will be stale by then. I'll send update of phenotypes in the next couple of days.

Don

 

[Nanci]

Cut. ???