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stupid breeders why cant you just leave things be

That's weird that I care so much about selling them considering I've never bred a hybrid in my life. Double check your facts if you're going to be so sure of yourself. It would fit nicely into your argument if you could stereotype me as a money-hungry miscreant who doesn't care about snakes, but then again a lot of things don't exactly jive with your argument. I care because I haven't seen your camp make a valid point yet and if you're beaten over the head with it enough, you might start to realize that (fat chance, I know).

I have kept a few hybrids in the past and I enjoy them, so I don't want to see your ignorance perpetuated as holier-than-thou "fact" if it interferes with other people enjoying them. Since you said pages ago that you weren't here to change anyone's mind, I have to wonder why are you still posting here? It should be pretty clear to everyone who has the agenda here.



I have to admit, that one irked me for a minute. I realized it shouldn't coming from you though. Jumping to conclusions without evidence seems to be par for the course.

You choose to sell hybrids, that's your choice.
T

That should have started with IF.

So, you don't want me to Interfere with people enjoying them??? Seems were on the same page of different books. If you don't want to argue about it, stop responding to me. Ask Ryan if I have made any valid points, he does all the stuff I don't like and we are cool. He is responsible and that's what it's all about. Does that mean I like them? No. It's not going to go away but it could be done in away that doesn't affect those natural snakes you don't care about. You know, not interfering with me enjoying them.
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Maybe you are able to explain why you felt so upset about that besides you just feel it is important to have pure snakes. Did you harm any snakes? You did not notice the creamsicle markers, or they were not there, and so most others would not either I think. I know Doug and Gerards are cringing, but why is there a problem than? It is all about the idea there are some slightly alien genes in some snakes.. I think the problem is more in your heads, longing for pure snakes than in the real world.

You seem to be unable to understand that most people(think not on this forum) do not like that. They do not want that. Other people, not all about you.
 
Well good for them. If you are part of such a majority you must be able to maintain a natural, purely bred population to enjoy. I promise I won't train those few hybrids I breed and that do not look like a hybrid, to label themselves as natural occurring species or natural occurring hybrid and to find a way to pollute your pool of snakes. I will tell them to be intimate only with other tainted snakes. Can we get along than?
 
A long while back I used to be VERY interested in the neotropical triangulums and even deluded myself into believing I could acquire at least a pair of all the variations that were at that time "identified". I bought every paper and publication I could find about them and studied what the people who were supposed to be experts wrote about how to actually identify them. And the more I "learned" the more obvious it became that these various subspecific races of triangulums were about the most glaring example of arbitrary hair splitting that I have ever seen. Locality ranges overlapped, triad counts had variances that overlapped, scale counts covered wide ranges that upper and lower counts of any subspecies would overlap one or more others, etc., etc. I asked people questions who were supposedly in the know, and they either dodged the pointed questions or made replies that were nonsensical in the arbitrary nature of how those lines are drawn identifying one subspecies from another.

For decades, triangulums were collected from all over the ranges of all the subspecific types, and exported from whatever country of the day had current licenses to send those animals to ports in the USA. So importers would go through all of the milk snakes that came in and arbitrarily label them as they THOUGHT they matched with their interpretation of what made any particular subspecies of triangulum. This was all well known to those interested in these animals, and even back then, the purists of the day claimed that the ONLY way you could be certain of the subspecies you had in hand was if you actually collected the animal personally within the range that someone stated that it came from. Point blank, NO ONE could just pull any of those subspecies out of a bag from "locality unknown" and know positively, beyond any shadow of a doubt, what it was they actually had in their hot little hands.

Which, of course, was ridiculous.

Ridiculous, because I would look at all of the variation of the corn snake (Elaphe g. guttata) at the time, and noting the stark variation between an individual from Okeetee hunt club, and one that came from south Miami, or from Key West, etc., and yet THEY were all considered to be the SAME subspecies, regardless of the variations noted. Variations that were no less than the variations between the various subspecies of neotropical triangulums that I was beating my head against the desk trying to understand.

So, somebody PLEASE tell me the difference. Why are the very minor differences between the various subspecies of those neotropical triangulums worthy of making SUBSPECIES classifications, yet the same amount of variation between the various geographical populations of the corn snake NOT worthy of the same consideration. What, EXACTLY, is the difference?

Anyone?

As an aside, does anyone remember that the ORIGINAL amelanistic Honduran milk snakes were actually labeled as amelanistic Central American milk snakes (L.t. polyzona)? And does anyone remember how many colonies of aberrant Sinaloan milk snakes suddenly became aberrant Nelson's milk snakes when Doug Moody came up with the first amelanistic Nelson's?

And a real kicker here, but someone told me that one of the REALLY big names in tri-colors many years ago used to keep them all in large colonies together. Arcifera, ruthveni, gray bands, alterna, greer's, pueblans, thayer's, etc... ALL kept together. Of course they all bred together, and when the babies hatched, they were segregated and SOLD based on what they looked like, nothing more, and no matter what the parentage actually was. We're talking about early '80s for a time frame, to give you an idea of what "purity" actually exists now in any of those lines. Heck, the last year I produced alterna, I was scared to death that I might produce an amelanistic. No one would have believed it was true, and would have accused me of breeding amel ruthveni into them.

Oh yeah, and how about the guy that told me point blank that he takes all the young gray bands that didn't sell through the year and hauls them out to Texas to sell as locality gray bands out of his motel room? :laugh:

Anyway, sorry, but perhaps this will help explain my jaundiced view of this "purity" inclination that some have.
 
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Rich, thank you for bringing to light some of the things that the younger generation (my generation and those younger than myself) never really had to experience or witness. It really is quite interesting to think that all of these "locality specific" animals from other countries can't even really be sold as pure subspecies of any kind. Anyways. Your expertise in this matter is greatly appreciated, even if a few other people don't see it, or agree with you.

You still don't get it ANY of this.......the sheer irony is that none of what you are saying and re-hashing has anything to do with the points I have been "attempting" to make this ENTIRE time. It's a futile effort over here, and you guys are obviously incapable of coprehending any of the true scenarios that go on constantly because of this. That is extremely obvious and I knew it would basically be this way here (very unfortunate indeed).

Anyway, you can scratch any of those locality-specific aberrant corn offspring originating from outside of Everglades National Park off of your future "want" list Robbie if they prove to be inherant. :wavey:


~Doug

Huh. Given that I hadn't really heard from you since those few PM's we exchanged, I had completely forgotten that you had that project, or that it even still existed. I guess that's what I get for not visiting the puritan forums. Well, either way, after seeing your attitude and condescending demeanor in this thread, I have absolutely no intentions of supporting your business at any time in the future. I can always wait to purchase a second or third gen animal from someone other than you, or, if I REALLY wanted to, take a day trip down to the Everglades and catch something for myself. Or maybe head over to the Okeechobee area and catch some of those wild anerys that have been captured in that area. :shrugs: Either way, it's no real loss to me if you scratch me off the list. By the way, I had absolutely no hybridization plan for those. If I do purchase something as locality specific, they will only be bred to each other because, while I think hybrids are fascinating, the propagation of beautiful wild-type specimens is also very important. Future generations should be able to enjoy the beauty of the natural animal, as well as it's many color variations.
 
Rich,.......I just sat down from being out running some errands and I see all of those great points you brought up. I am the VERY first to say that those are all great issues and points to be addressed. To explain any of this in any detail will take me a bit of time to compile with uploading photos, pasting some links and lots of other additional correlating information, so please be patient and give me a while and I'll definitely address your response. Yes, there are so many different facets to the tropical Central American milks, as well as some forms from Mexico and elsewhere being so incredibly problematic over the decades. There are countless factors as you already know for a lot of it, and some very straight-forward aspects to other parts. As you may recall we have talked about some of this on the phone in the past as well. A fairly similar situation was in regards to the Outer Banks kings (L.g.sticticeps) as you may also recall.

Anyway, let me take care of some other stuff I have to take care of here, and by later tomorrow I will have some pertinent things to add for your very legitimate post. Many milks in the hobby as well as many from the wild definitely ARE very unidentifiable, but others most certainly are VERY identifiable, this all depends on many different key factors though, that's for certain.



~Doug
 
It's not going to go away but it could be done in away that doesn't affect those natural snakes you don't care about.

Now I don't care about natural snakes? It's weird how you think you know so much about me when so many of your comments about me are dead wrong. I submit for your consideration a captive bred Gulf Hammock rat snake from parents collected in classic E. o. williamsi range (Levy County specifically).
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Gee, it's almost as if we don't really have to take sides and a person can be cool with locality animals and hybrids at the same time. I sure thought I was. In spite of the fact that numerous hybrid rat snakes are on the market, and people constantly cross different rat snakes (which are a taxonomic nightmare right now anyway thanks to Burbrink), I was still able to find locality specimens easily. In fact, no amount of misrepresented, intergraded rats on the market will change that as long as there are breeders interested in maintaining pure stock.

They'll maintain bloodlines descended from known WC specimens and only add new WC animals or animals from other trusted sources. See that's the real truth here that you guys aren't talking about. If you want your grandkids to be able to see a sinaloan milk that had generations of ancestors all descended from WC specimens in a single locality, that burden is on you and your locality-minded peers. The rest of the hobby doesn't need to bend to your whim just to make it easy for anyone to find snakes that meet an arbitrary definition of hypothetical purity. If you guys care so much about this, and you clearly do, just do your own thing. You keep talking about this massive threat the rest of us pose to your ideals, but the last time I checked locality nuts didn't buy snakes without locality data. So unless you plan to buy from the high school kid who threw 2 mystery milk snakes together in his basement (and I don't think you do), the rest of the industry really shouldn't be a threat to your goals.

What if I adopted the stance that morphs are unnatural (just as you look at hybrids as unnatural) and only wanted normal locality okeetees. If I buy some that end up being het for amel and hatch some amels, is it my fault for not being careful enough in selecting breeding stock or is the rest of the world wrong for not bending to my standards and all the people keeping amels should be ashamed? If my goal was het for nothing locality okeetees, it's absolutely fine for me to have them, and the same goes for you and your goals. The thing is, just because 1,000 other people want the thickest borders and brightest colors doesn't make them wrong and me a poor martyr for clinging to my own concept of purity that they don't care about.

I will admit one thing I don't understand after all you've said. Why is the look not enough? It's a pet snake in a box when you get right down to it. If it looks exactly like a sinaloan milk and can't be distinguished from one, but you know its grandpa is a nelsoni, what's so wrong with that? I'm honestly at a loss to explain why that is so important to you. You guys are after the intangible, the pedigree. What is it about that that makes you view perfectly healthy captive snakes as abominations? I know you think I haven't been paying attention, but I've read every post and this still hasn't been spelled out clearly. Why does a snake in a box have to be as close as genetically possible to a wild population in any given place?
 
Now I don't care about natural snakes? It's weird how you think you know so much about me when so many of your comments about me are dead wrong. I submit for your consideration a captive bred Gulf Hammock rat snake from parents collected in classic E. o. williamsi range

Gee, it's almost as if we don't really have to take sides and a person can be cool with locality animals and hybrids at the same time. I sure thought I was. In spite of the fact that numerous hybrid rat snakes are on the market, and people constantly cross different rat snakes (which are a taxonomic nightmare right now anyway thanks to Burbrink), I was still able to find locality specimens easily. In fact, no amount of misrepresented, intergraded rats on the market will change that as long as there are breeders interested in maintaining pure stock.

They'll maintain bloodlines descended from known WC specimens and only add new WC animals or animals from other trusted sources. See that's the real truth here that you guys aren't talking about. If you want your grandkids to be able to see a sinaloan milk that had generations of ancestors all descended from WC specimens in a single locality, that burden is on you and your locality-minded peers. The rest of the hobby doesn't need to bend to your whim just to make it easy for anyone to find snakes that meet an arbitrary definition of hypothetical purity. If you guys care so much about this, and you clearly do, just do your own thing. You keep talking about this massive threat the rest of us pose to your ideals, but the last time I checked locality nuts didn't buy snakes without locality data. So unless you plan to buy from the high school kid who threw 2 mystery milk snakes together in his basement (and I don't think you do), the rest of the industry really shouldn't be a threat to your goals.

What if I adopted the stance that morphs are unnatural (just as you look at hybrids as unnatural) and only wanted normal locality okeetees. If I buy some that end up being het for amel and hatch some amels, is it my fault for not being careful enough in selecting breeding stock or is the rest of the world wrong for not bending to my standards and all the people keeping amels should be ashamed? If my goal was het for nothing locality okeetees, it's absolutely fine for me to have them, and the same goes for you and your goals. The thing is, just because 1,000 other people want the thickest borders and brightest colors doesn't make them wrong and me a poor martyr for clinging to my own concept of purity that they don't care about.

I will admit one thing I don't understand after all you've said. Why is the look not enough? It's a pet snake in a box when you get right down to it. If it looks exactly like a sinaloan milk and can't be distinguished from one, but you know its grandpa is a nelsoni, what's so wrong with that? I'm honestly at a loss to explain why that is so important to you. You guys are after the intangible, the pedigree. What is it about that that makes you view perfectly healthy captive snakes as abominations? I know you think I haven't been paying attention, but I've read every post and this still hasn't been spelled out clearly. Why does a snake in a box have to be as close as genetically possible to a wild population in any given place?

These really long responses of why you don't understand something is not needed. If you took the time to learn about these animals, you would appreciate the uniqueness of the natural form. Morphs are still natural, it has nothing to do with that. Yes, I do not know you, that you are correct about. Why do you even call them sinaloans or nelsons? Seems you should just call them milksnakes, right? I never understood the "snake in a box" argument, what does that mean? What makes putting a snake in a box any less authentic than the same kind in the wild? Seems the only thing that cause that is crossing it with a snake that it would not meet in the wild. You know, hybrids. Yes, I can go out and catch anything I want at anytime. That is nice to know. However, the stuff you cannot go out and catch is threatened. It's not a doom day threat, it's not making them extinct. I guess it's a difference in standards, I have high standards. I guess it comes down to what you know. This is why I like these threads. Have a good night, I'm going to clean some turtles.
Cemophora my friend caught and released in ENP.
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If you took the time to learn about these animals, you would appreciate the uniqueness of the natural form.

You continue to make incorrect assumptions about me and come across as condescending, whether you realize it or not. I've got my fair share of experience in the field and I appreciate natural snake populations more than you know. Paint whatever inaccurate pictures of me you like-I'm not going to bother continuing to correct you for the sake of brevity.

Why do you even call them sinaloans or nelsons? Seems you should just call them milksnakes, right? I never understood the "snake in a box" argument, what does that mean? What makes putting a snake in a box any less authentic than the same kind in the wild?

Har har, why would I know anything about anything if I don't hate hybrids right? Shoot, I guess I'm lucky I can tell a nelsons from a legless lizard. If it's in a box, it's a pet and/or breeding stock. It won't have any effect on its wild counterparts since it's been removed from the ecosystem-that's the significance of the box. Now I can understand wanting a snake that looks just like the ones you find in nature. That way you have a little slice of the outdoors to enjoy right in your home. I can't understand caring if the scale count is a little off though (since these snakes and all their offspring will stay in boxes).

I know you want me to keep my responses short, so I'll just repeat this in a shorter form (and hopefully you'll answer it this time). If you just answer this in a straighforward and sensible way, I'll bow out of the discussion and you'll have one less argument on the opposing side. I just want to know: Why is morphology not enough? If it looks exactly like a sinaloan milk and can't be distinguished from one, but you know its grandpa is a nelsoni, what's so wrong with that? Why does a captive snake have to be as close as genetically possible to a wild population for you to accept it as a viable captive?

I think this is really the heart of the whole issue. You seem to think you've made your argument clear, but I think it appears to many of us that you don't have a valid answer for these. If you're so sure yours is the intelligent position, answering these questions is the way to get it across so I can understand.
 
What is the diffence between a diamond and a cubic zirconia? They look the same and technically are the same material. Why is there a difference. They should both just be diamonds right? I am not trying to paint you as anything. I am just responding to what you write.
 
You continue to make incorrect assumptions about me and come across as condescending, whether you realize it or not. I've got my fair share of experience in the field and I appreciate natural snake populations more than you know. Paint whatever inaccurate pictures of me you like-I'm not going to bother continuing to correct you for the sake of brevity.



Har har, why would I know anything about anything if I don't hate hybrids right? Shoot, I guess I'm lucky I can tell a nelsons from a legless lizard. If it's in a box, it's a pet and/or breeding stock. It won't have any effect on its wild counterparts since it's been removed from the ecosystem-that's the significance of the box. Now I can understand wanting a snake that looks just like the ones you find in nature. That way you have a little slice of the outdoors to enjoy right in your home. I can't understand caring if the scale count is a little off though (since these snakes and all their offspring will stay in boxes).

I know you want me to keep my responses short, so I'll just repeat this in a shorter form (and hopefully you'll answer it this time). If you just answer this in a straighforward and sensible way, I'll bow out of the discussion and you'll have one less argument on the opposing side. I just want to know: Why is morphology not enough? If it looks exactly like a sinaloan milk and can't be distinguished from one, but you know its grandpa is a nelsoni, what's so wrong with that? Why does a captive snake have to be as close as genetically possible to a wild population for you to accept it as a viable captive?

I think this is really the heart of the whole issue. You seem to think you've made your argument clear, but I think it appears to many of us that you don't have a valid answer for these. If you're so sure yours is the intelligent position, answering these questions is the way to get it across so I can understand.

Because it simply isn't a nelsoni then, and when bred to any other so-called "Sinaloan" the offspring will then display obvious characteristics of the nelsoni that was tossed into the mix. Therefore those would not be nelsoni either, those would be known man-made crosses showing different degrees of intermediate meristic characteristics. Furthermore, the bogus so-called amel "Sinaloans" in the hobby usually being sold for much more money with the intent to portray to the un-knowing customer that they are nelsoni, are derived from the nelsoni amel gene that has been in the hobby since the mid 90's. Most of either amels or normals are typically more intermediate from exchanging so many hands over the years and crossed with either form for years now. Not all, but MANY of them.

I will show more about this later on tomorrow or so when I reply about the Latin milks Rich posted about. They are only similar to most people, but good examples of either are VERY different.


~Doug
 
Because it simply isn't a nelsoni then, and when bred to any other so-called "Sinaloan" the offspring will then display obvious characteristics of the nelsoni that was tossed into the mix. Therefore those would not be nelsoni either, those would be known man-made crosses showing different degrees of intermediate meristic characteristics. Furthermore, the bogus so-called amel "Sinaloans" in the hobby usually being sold for much more money with the intent to portray to the un-knowing customer that they are nelsoni, are derived from the nelsoni amel gene that has been in the hobby since the mid 90's. Most of either amels or normals are typically more intermediate from exchanging so many hands over the years and crossed with either form for years now. Not all, but MANY of them.

I will show more about this later on tomorrow or so when I reply about the Latin milks Rich posted about. They are only similar to most people, but good examples of either are VERY different.


~Doug

I'm sorry, Im so tired I can hardly stay awake, it's now 1:15 AM, so please replace where I typed "nelsoni" in BOLD with Sinaloan if you would then it will make sense.

When I looked at it after I hit "submit reply", I saw I had it in reverse..LOL!


~Doug
 
I have no idea what the difference is-I know squat about gemstones. Let's give this a third try though: Why does it matter if there's an ancestral anomaly in a captive snake's family tree if it's indistinguishable from one without the anomaly? We've boiled this down to the simplest of terms and I'm really just looking to get an understanding of your perspective, nothing more. If you can just explain your justification for your views to me by answering that question, I'll be satisfied.
 
I have no idea what the difference is-I know squat about gemstones. Let's give this a third try though: Why does it matter if there's an ancestral anomaly in a captive snake's family tree if it's indistinguishable from one without the anomaly? We've boiled this down to the simplest of terms and I'm really just looking to get an understanding of your perspective, nothing more. If you can just explain your justification for your views to me by answering that question, I'll be satisfied.

A diamond is natural and is very valuable, cubic zirconia is man made and not valuable. Why would you call a nelsons x sinaloan one or the other? They are both, two different species bred together. Their value is not money, it's the unique characteristics that define all the different species. Their appearance, habitat, husbandry needs and reproduction are all unique and interesting.
 
315 posts......unbelievable.

The OP is long gone, he had no idea what a can of worms he was opening.

I'm really trying my best to keep this civil but cut and dried, Rich is obviously right. I have noticed many of the same similarities he mentioned in a lot of my king and milk snake books, yeah I have snake books older than I am...(I'm 30 btw). Even the authors of these books clearly state that some of the subspecies of milks are practically indistinguishable.

When scale counts overlap, snout bands vary and triad counts are all over the place for one subspecies, what is the standard for that animal? It just doesn't make sense.

I'm not as experienced as Rich or Doug for that matter and I do respect both of their work in this industry.

I just don't think Doug has a valid argument at this point.
 

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A diamond is natural and is very valuable, cubic zirconia is man made and not valuable. Why would you call a nelsons x sinaloan one or the other? They are both, two different species bred together. Their value is not money, it's the unique characteristics that define all the different species. Their appearance, habitat, husbandry needs and reproduction are all unique and interesting.

We understand. But why are hybrids or slightly polluted snakes in a population you will never obtain your snakes from, so threatening? If you want pure diamonds, you go buy them at trusted sellers. If you care less about being natural or what they really are, but you just want a shiny stone, you might go to a doubtfull seller or one who labels his zirkonia's as zirkonia's. You know your trusted sellers, why bother about other people buying and selling zirkonia's or suspected zirkonia's labeled as diamonds?
 
Kate is a rootbeer, and back then I did not know what I know now. Plus I was told she was a cornsnake, and the pet shops and individuals who got the babies were told by ME that they were cornsnakes. They weren't, not at all.

I seriously wonder how much an emoryi is different genetically from a corn snake, compared to the genetic difference between a high blond Norwegian guy and a Pygmy man? I do think phenotypically the latter are way more different than a cornsnake and an emoryi rat snake, especially for the untrained eye. I am glad we do not classify people into subspecies or localities as we do with snakes... I get to understand why it is better to not do that.

Further, if you consider discovering one of your corns you bred with, carries a certain amount of emoryi genes as devestating, what about finding out your collection is contaminated with crypto? I seriously hope you do not consider the first to be as bad as the latter. In my book devestating means 9 or 10 on a scale of 1 - 10, 10 being the worst possible thing that could happen to your collection.
 
I think I see the problem. The purists believe that most of the captive snakes, no matter the species, are already tainted because nobody but them cares about purity or is too ignorant to even think about it, breeding snakes haphazardly. They have their little 100% pure collection that they consider the only good thing in this world. They are so fearful that one of these tainted snakes will make into their own collection because of their inability to identify it as tainted and therefore ruining their precious collection for all eternity. It's called paranoia.
 
You should say NATURAL collection and NATURALITY, not pure and purity Susan :p They do approve of natural occuring hybrids you know.
 
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