stupid breeders why cant you just leave things be

[Carinata]

As far as I know, it's mostly colubrids that are tainted. Things like Ball Pythons, Fat-Tail Geckos, etc, are all pure. Things like Carpets, and Leopards are tainted. My offer still stands about the radio show!

 

[SnakeAround]

Mayeb because there seems to be little to cross with balls that look a bit like them? Are they not the only one in the regius group? Crossing with African rock or reticulated does look like a larger step than obsoletus x guttatus. Concerning leopard gecko's, there are some other lizards I can hardly distinguish at a glance from leo's, like fat tails, being a noob in that area. Probably another subspecies?

 

[RobbiesCornField]

What is the diffence between a diamond and a cubic zirconia? They look the same and technically are the same material. Why is there a difference. They should both just be diamonds right? I am not trying to paint you as anything. I am just responding to what you write.

Well, that's because they ARE the same. The only difference is how they were created. I'm not really understanding the point of this. CZ is created in a lab, diamonds are dug from mines owned by organizations that employ impoverished people to dig them up even if they're dying. I prefer my diamonds not come at the suffering of another human being, much like I prefer my snakes to not come from the suffering of a local population. Am I so wrong for liking lab-created stones, or man-created morphs (and hybrids) that don't fit into your ideals of perfect because they're not as close to natural as possible?

Mayeb because there seems to be little to cross with balls that look a bit like them? Are they not the only one in the regius group? Crossing with African rock or reticulated does look like a larger step than obsoletus x guttatus. Concerning leopard gecko's, there are some other lizards I can hardly distinguish at a glance from leo's, like fat tails, being a noob in that area. Probably another subspecies?

Have you seen some of the burmballs and balltics? They're rather interesting looking creatures that have absolutely no way of ever being confused as anything except a hybrid. Also, I'm totally with you on the Leo's vs Fat-Tails. The only difference I've found so far is that Fat-Tails are duller and darker. :shrugs:

 

[Carinata]

What I mean is in nature there are no natural intergrades of Balls, or AFTs. Leos interbreed with the different subspecies, that look very similar. The closest relative of the AFT is H. taylori, which are quite different.

 

[Gerards]

Well, that's because they ARE the same. The only difference is how they were created. I'm not really understanding the point of this. CZ is created in a lab, diamonds are dug from mines owned by organizations that employ impoverished people to dig them up even if they're dying. I prefer my diamonds not come at the suffering of another human being, much like I prefer my snakes to not come from the suffering of a local population. Am I so wrong for liking lab-created stones, or man-created morphs (and hybrids) that don't fit into your ideals of perfect because they're not as close to natural as possible?:

Also, they are the same thing. They are not different rocks. The question was, why do I like snakes that are natural. There's nothing wrong with a snake bred in captivity. How does a snake that descends from the wild suffer anything? You don't seem to be able to read, I said I don't care if you make hybrids, its never going to stop. I care when your byproduct ends up destroying what I like. So, what I like makes what you like possible. You know the natural species you don't like, that you use to make the hybrids you care for. Mine helps yours, yours hurts mine. What is wrong with me not liking that???

 

[RobbiesCornField]

Also, they are the same thing. They are not different rocks. The question was, why do I like snakes that are natural. There's nothing wrong with a snake bred in captivity. How does a snake that descends from the wild suffer anything? You don't seem to be able to read, I said I don't care if you make hybrids, its never going to stop. I care when your byproduct ends up destroying what I like. So, what I like makes what you like possible. You know the natural species you don't like, that you use to make the hybrids you care for. Mine helps yours, yours hurts mine. What is wrong with me not liking that???

Fortunately for me, my reading comprehension has been tested by others with far more weight than some anonymous person on the internet, and deemed to be of a highly respectable level. Now are you done slinging petty insults?

I never said anything was wrong with liking that. I also NEVER said that I don't like the natural species. I have said before that I very much enjoy the natural species, and appreciate their wild-type beauty. I also never said that the snake descended from the wild hurts anything, I said the wild population suffers anytime a breeding-sized/aged animal is taken from it. Those animals are the best of the best that the wild population has to offer, and it seems irresponsible to remove them from that environment where they can continue on their legacy. I have much less of a problem (next to none, actually) with wild caught hatchlings or juveniles. My Moellendorffi, for example, were fourth generation CBB in the US with further back CBB origins in Europe (overall 8th generation CBB, if I remember correctly). To me, captive bred will always take precedence over anything wild caught, unless the wild population is undamaged in the process (i.e. taking a juvenile corn from the middle of the Everglades, taking a young [not of breeding age] non-protected/endangered/threatened/critical animal from any locale).

 

[Outcast]

Actually Gerards, they are different rocks. I have asked the Geology Dept at my school. Diamonds have impurities in them which make them good for jewelry, CZ does not have those impurities which makes them better for industrial stuff. So, what makes a diamond a diamond is not only its hardness, but also the impurities within it, which CZ lacks.

 

[RobbiesCornField]

Actually Gerards, they are different rocks. I have asked the Geology Dept at my school. Diamonds have impurities in them which make them good for jewelry, CZ does not have those impurities which makes them better for industrial stuff. So, what makes a diamond a diamond is not only its hardness, but also the impurities within it, which CZ lacks.

I beg your pardon. I was wrongly thinking of lab-created diamond versus real diamond, not diamond versus CZ. My partner is in jewelry sales, and I get to hear about these types of "arguments" from customers all the time. Lol

 

[Outcast]

CZ is lab created diamonds, They are just industrial type. Not the awesome lab created ones that are more expensive than mined ones occationally. I was just responding to Geralds Diamonds vs CZ argument.. And showing that it is the impurities in mined diamonds that make them so valuable... So it really is a bad argument when coming from someone who wants to prove that pure is better...

 

[Gerards]

Actually Gerards, they are different rocks. I have asked the Geology Dept at my school. Diamonds have impurities in them which make them good for jewelry, CZ does not have those impurities which makes them better for industrial stuff. So, what makes a diamond a diamond is not only its hardness, but also the impurities within it, which CZ lacks.

Thank you, that's very interesting.

 

[Carinata]

I think the main issue here, is that the “byproducts” from hybrids are getting into the mainstream population and breeding with the pure species, creating muddied bloodlines. While this is an issue, there won’t be a real way to police it. The only way we can fix the problem is to continue to capture wild stock from the wild and only line breed it with direct relatives or new pure blood. This isn’t an issue that will go away, so we need to try and educate those who want to produce hybrids. We need to make sure people are labeling them as such. As I said this issue won’t stop, and bickering like children won’t fix it. We need to constructively figure out how to make sure hybrids don’t get into pure stock. I have no issue with hybrids, but I do have an issue when they are introduced into pure stock without being listed as such. We really are getting nowhere with this thread, unless people on both sides of the debate try and offer constructive ideas without degrading each other, name calling, etc.

 

[Outcast]

I personally love looking at Hybrids, and want to try my hand a some in the distant future... But I can garantee that those will be only sold or given to people who just want pets. And, I will keep in touch with said people, if they do not want the snake any more in the future, I will try to find a good place for it, or take it back. (that is perfect world scenario) It is impossible to police what people do with the snakes you sell. If someone buys one of your "pure" snakes, and breeds it to another species, you have no control over it... Unfortunately the waters are so muddy as it is, that I think this argument is kind of too little too late.

I see the need for pure stock, I also see the draw of hybrids.

I want to do some hybrids in the future, but I also would love to work with different specific localities of different colubrids.

Snakes are a relatively new found passion for me, I have always loved them, and wanted to keep them, but not until I got my first Corn in 2009, was I able to actually start fufilling my dreams.

 

[DISCERN]

Carinata,

Good post!

You said, :
" We need to constructively figure out how to make sure hybrids don’t get into pure stock. I have no issue with hybrids, but I do have an issue when they are introduced into pure stock without being listed as such. "

Then you do have an issue with hybrids, because they DO get introduced into pure stock, thus the reasoning behind what Doug and Gerard are saying.

The only sure fire way to make sure hybrids don't get into pure stock? Put selfish desires aside and simply do not partake in biological perversion by creating them. It really is that simple.

 

[RobbiesCornField]

CZ is lab created diamonds, They are just industrial type. Not the awesome lab created ones that are more expensive than mined ones occationally. I was just responding to Geralds Diamonds vs CZ argument.. And showing that it is the impurities in mined diamonds that make them so valuable... So it really is a bad argument when coming from someone who wants to prove that pure is better...

The really funny thing is that it's the world-wide diamond monopoly that has created such a bad name for lab-created diamonds. I just asked my partner what the difference between lab-created and natural diamonds are:

People aren't enslaved and the earth raped to the tune of trillions of dollars. We could have had man-made diamonds filling the market at this point. The world-wide diamond monopoly has done uch to suppress their production and mar their appeal.Each diamond has to be accounted for and cataloged, not to mention tagged with something fluorescent so that it can be readily distinguished from a natural diamond. There ARE a couple companies that deal in manufactured diamonds, but they cost as much or more than mined ones. Nearly as much, anyway, when you would be expecting the price to be a lot different.

I think the main issue here, is that the “byproducts” from hybrids are getting into the mainstream population and breeding with the pure species, creating muddied bloodlines. While this is an issue, there won’t be a real way to police it. The only way we can fix the problem is to continue to capture wild stock from the wild and only line breed it with direct relatives or new pure blood. This isn’t an issue that will go away, so we need to try and educate those who want to produce hybrids. We need to make sure people are labeling them as such. As I said this issue won’t stop, and bickering like children won’t fix it. We need to constructively figure out how to make sure hybrids don’t get into pure stock. I have no issue with hybrids, but I do have an issue when they are introduced into pure stock without being listed as such. We really are getting nowhere with this thread, unless people on both sides of the debate try and offer constructive ideas without degrading each other, name calling, etc.

I've really only seen one side instigate this, but you are right about that. I tend to disagree with a good portion of your previous statement, but c'est la vie. The proper labeling I DO agree with, however. If something I'm bringing in is a hybrid, I want to know about it in advance so I can make sure to only create either more hybrids, or make sure they're properly marked when they breed. I guess that's where I'm really on the fence, because I can understand wanting pure collections, but I can also understand the want for hybrids. I do not understand why something that *WAS* a hybrid in the first few generations that has been bred back into ONLY one species through dozens and dozens of generations should still be considered a hybrid (i.e. Ultra). I know that some people still view Ultra as hybrids, so anything I produce that has ultra in the bloodlines will be labeled as "From Ultra lines".

 

[Gerards]

CZ is lab created diamonds, They are just industrial type. Not the awesome lab created ones that are more expensive than mined ones occationally. I was just responding to Geralds Diamonds vs CZ argument.. And showing that it is the impurities in mined diamonds that make them so valuable... So it really is a bad argument when coming from someone who wants to prove that pure is better...

My argument is what the Diamond from the wild is worth compared to a CZ ring that is man made. I was asked why I prefer natural species instead of man made hybrids. I keep a lot of north Florida intergrades they are very unique animals. You people seem to keep using the word pure, I use the word natural. Diamonds are natural and more valuable. It seems like the perfect argument. Show me a natural occurring Honduran x cornsnake and I will own a pair.

 

[beautifullywild77]

Yea, the diamond is more natural but how many lives are lost in mining that diamond?

 

[RobbiesCornField]

The only sure fire way to make sure hybrids don't get into pure stock? Put selfish desires aside and simply do not partake in biological perversion by creating them. It really is that simple.

Well all that is fine and dandy. But HOW are you going to proactively police people so that they don't create hybrids?

News flash:
YOU CAN'T.

The only way that you can maintain a "pure"(/natural/whatever you want to call it) stock is by only introducing animals into your collection/breeding stock from people that you trust. Why should the rest of the hobby have to bow to your whims if they want to "selfishly" partake in "biological perversion"? Personally, I don't consider it a "biological perversion" if the snakes do it willingly. Now if someone artificially inseminated a snake with the sperm of another species, THAT I would consider a biological perversion, and a bit of a god complex. Just because these species CAN'T meet in the wild doesn't mean that they, if they did happen to run across each other, wouldn't mate.

 

[DMong]

I think I see the problem. The purists believe that most of the captive snakes, no matter the species, are already tainted because nobody but them cares about purity or is too ignorant to even think about it, breeding snakes haphazardly. They have their little 100% pure collection that they consider the only good thing in this world. They are so fearful that one of these tainted snakes will make into their own collection because of their inability to identify it as tainted and therefore ruining their precious collection for all eternity. It's called paranoia.

From your response Susan, I see that you clearly don't understand our stance at all. However you're right about it not affecting most of what we own and work with (exception being the common hobby Hondos), although I certainly know where to acquire genuine L.t.hondurensis as well from only two(2) known lines in this country...one being generic, and the other from central Nicaragua). We would like for OTHERS to be able to enjoy some authentic subspecies in this hobby in the future, and this is what keeps getting twisted up into a pretzel here. Finding any real stuff that hasn't had other things crossed into them in this hobby is getting harder and harder to do now days.


~Doug

 

[RobbiesCornField]

My argument is what the Diamond from the wild is worth compared to a CZ ring that is man made. I was asked why I prefer natural species instead of man made hybrids. I keep a lot of north Florida intergrades they are very unique animals. You people seem to keep using the word pure, I use the word natural. Diamonds are natural and more valuable. It seems like the perfect argument. Show me a natural occurring Honduran x cornsnake and I will own a pair.

:-offtopic
That turtle pic looks really awesome on a 32" HD screen. (Actually, all of the pics in this thread look awesome. Hybrid, natural, fish...)

 

[Outcast]

Gerards, please answer me this... Are those turtle pictures useful for your arguments? I love turtles just as much as the next guy.. I currently have 3, two mississippi maps and a desert box turtle.

Anyway, I see your point, I understand your point, but, in my opinion and that of many college professors that I have spoken to on the subject. Diamonds are only so valuable because of the monopoly that De beers and other corporations have on them. They stockpile and only release so many at a time. So in all reality, being able to manufacture diamons should drive prices down, but they don't because those companies also only release so many... It is a very lucrative business, "We have trillions of these, but we make them more valuable by choking the market to the point everyone thinks they are rare".

That is why your man made vs natural diamond argument is not very good.

Personally there are some man made hybrids that are absolutely stunning animals.

Also, I have always thought that with few exceptions, true hybrids could not have viable offspring, so wouldn't these "hybrids" be more accurately called something else?