stupid breeders why cant you just leave things be

[Clovis]

I think I see the problem. The purists believe that most of the captive snakes, no matter the species, are already tainted because nobody but them cares about purity or is too ignorant to even think about it, breeding snakes haphazardly. They have their little 100% pure collection that they consider the only good thing in this world. They are so fearful that one of these tainted snakes will make into their own collection because of their inability to identify it as tainted and therefore ruining their precious collection for all eternity. It's called paranoia.

I love you for this.

 

[Clovis]

Wrong,.......it is NOT the impurities that make natural diamonds more valuable, it's that they are natural and happen to HAVE impurities from being natural and therefore more rare as well as not man-made. Nobody pays more for more impurities in a natural diamond (unless its a rare color variety).

It's that they are natural creations that took nature countless millions of years to produce versus man-made laboratory creations easily made at will with simple technology. Now when a natural diamond has LESS or virtually NO impurities, that makes those worth even far more than ones with impuriries or other flaws.


~Doug

Ya know the problem with this analogy? It's that lab created diamonds are made in a lab, and natural diamonds are dug out of the ground...

When looked at in this light you'll see that any snake bred in captivity is obviously not a natural diamond, as they have been created in a controlled environment. THEREFORE the only REAL (diamond) snakes are caught in the wild.

I rest my case.

 

[Gerards]

Ya know the problem with this analogy? It's that lab created diamonds are made in a lab, and natural diamonds are dug out of the ground...

When looked at in this light you'll see that any snake bred in captivity is obviously not a natural diamond, as they have been created in a controlled environment. THEREFORE the only REAL (diamond) snakes are caught in the wild.

I rest my case.

You don't get it. It is not about from the wild or captivity. It's about natural and man made hybrids. You can twist it into different ways if you want but it was not said in that context.

 

[SnakeAround]

It has been said many times. You are to lazy/greedy/uneducated to care/admit/understand. It's about other people that do not know yet. There was a post earlier where the person found out years later they had hybrids and they were devastated. If it's not a big deal, why do you feel the need to defend it?

Because I get called lazy/uneducated/greedy. I might be uneducated about all the subspecies in snakes, but that does not make me a bad snakebreeder. You ignore the fact that I loose money in breeding snakes, which a greedy person would not let happen. You ignore asking why man made hybrid breeders actually are lazy? You actually have no idea what I do and do not know about subspecies, you assume. As you do about all others whom do not share your opinion, or, as you see it, do not understand the problem. But again you show you cannot truly answer my questions yet feel the need to talk me down instead. That is why I asked Jim, not you.

 

[DMong]

I apologize in advance if I can't respond immediately. I'm at work, and am not able to spend as much time on here as I like.



Wow. Sorry, but taping cloacas shut in the name of hybrid breeding is a practice I would never participate in, and neither is the trickery. If they will breed of their own accord, then fine. If they won't, they'll be separated. Simple as that. I don't believe in interspecies "snake rape". I know there are some people that do, but I would never count myself as one of them.



I was just saying that it looks really cool on the screen. Hybrid/pure/wc/cb/natural/abomination. It doesn't have to be one specific thing to look incredible. Many different types of animals, plants, gems, etc. can be beautiful to different people.

Yes, but a large part of the main issue is that it isn't always about the "looks" of a snake that is necessarily so important at all, although cool looking snakes certainly are interesting and pleasing to the eye. It's more about what they actually ARE that is what's more important to me and others sharing these very same views. Real stuff can be very cool looking and interesting. It's the instant gratification with tossing different types of snakes together that is so wxciting for the crossers/hybridizers. So of course with those mind-sets it always is the most important thing, not what they might do later on.

If this thread went on for another 5 years that very point would always keep being dismissed here or twisted somehow to justify the very opposite. It's the very nature of this topic and the people involved with it to do so. Because if it wasn't done, it wouldn't be a topic in the first place.

The point is that the more normal looking by-products of most of these hybridization project muddy things up yet further every single breeding season. It's something that cannot be logically or realistically disputed.



~Doug

 

[DMong]

Ya know the problem with this analogy? It's that lab created diamonds are made in a lab, and natural diamonds are dug out of the ground...

When looked at in this light you'll see that any snake bred in captivity is obviously not a natural diamond, as they have been created in a controlled environment. THEREFORE the only REAL (diamond) snakes are caught in the wild.

I rest my case.

Do you SEE, or DID YOU SEE anyone here EVER say otherwise??. DUUH!! :crazy01:, any breeding in captivity is not naturally occurring, no freaking kidding??When did I or Gerard ever say they were??? I hear this same ridiculous stuff time and time and time again from hybridizers when it has NOTHING to do with our point.............NOTHING!!!.the important thing is that the subspecies of snake never changes!!!!!!!!!!!!! :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang

 

[SnakeAround]

There was a post earlier where the person found out years later they had hybrids and they were devastated.

To be honest, if that event is gonna be the closest she has been and will ever get to truly devestating stuff, she should be thankful to have been able to live a very happy life. I know you'd feel devestated and maybe even sick from finding out about hybrid genes in one of your natural occuring subspecies, but that in fact does make me worry about how you would handle truly horrible events like a break out of a deadly disease in the same collection or something bad happening to your family. I do hope you prefer the hybrid genes.

 

[Kevin S.]

I asked a question about snakes 3 times. Eventually I got an answer about diamonds. Since then, more name-calling has ensued and it's abundantly clear that no rational answer will be provided (that, or all but 2 people in this thread are lazy/greedy/stupid/evil/etc), so I think I'll just bow out now. Have fun guys.

 

[RobbiesCornField]

First - I do VERY much appreciate the change in tone in this post. Thank you for that.
Second, please see my responses in line below.

Yes, but a large part of the main issue is that it isn't always about the "looks" of a snake that is necessarily so important at all, although cool looking snakes certainly are interesting and pleasing to the eye. It's more about what they actually ARE that is what's more important to me and others sharing these very same views. Real stuff can be very cool looking and interesting. It's the instant gratification with tossing different types of snakes together that is so exciting for the crossers/hybridizers. So of course with those mind-sets it always is the most important thing, not what they might do later on.

Personally, I think it's more exciting to be on the cutting edge of a new corn/rat/boa morph than it is to be creating something that only I will potentially enjoy. Yes, hybrids are exciting because you never know exactly what is going to come out of the egg. And that's what I find so fascinating about them. I would never purposely sell a hybrid to someone that didn't know exactly what it was. If they couldn't tell me anything about the parent's species, I'm sorry, but no; I wouldn't sell to them.

If this thread went on for another 5 years that very point would always keep being dismissed here or twisted somehow to justify the very opposite. It's the very nature of this topic and the people involved with it to do so. Because if it wasn't done, it wouldn't be a topic in the first place.

If what wasn't done, exactly? Irresponsible selling? Or "snake rape"? Because I advocate neither.

The point is that the more normal looking by-products of most of these hybridization project muddy things up yet further every single breeding season. It's something that cannot be logically or realistically disputed.

I do agree with you on this. However, I don't agree with the "criminalization" of hybrid breeders that's been happening in this thread. They're being called ignorant, lazy, greedy, stupid, etc because you (collective, not you specifically) don't agree with what they do. That's what I find the most irritating of all, because without the condescension and mud slinging, this could be a fantastic debate. But when one side comes out with guns a-blazin', of course the other side is going to respond in kind.

~Doug

Again, I really do admire your passion regarding this topic, and appreciate your experience. I wouldn't still be in this thread if I didn't think your knowledge was something valuable to look at and learn from.

 

[starsevol]

To be honest, if that event is gonna be the closest she has been and will ever get to truly devestating stuff, she should be thankful to have been able to live a very happy life. I know you'd feel devestated and maybe even sick from finding out about hybrid genes in one of your natural occuring subspecies, but that in fact does make me worry about how you would handle truly horrible events like a break out of a deadly disease in the same collection or something bad happening to your family. I do hope you prefer the hybrid genes.

Just because WORSE things can happen, does not change how I feel and felt about discovering my girl was part emoryi. One has nothing to do with the other.
Yes, I was devistated, and am still to this very day. I mean, what the hell?????

Disease, death, tsunamis, hurricanes, whatever....would devistate me more, but what does that have to do with anything??

If I had known from the start that my sweet Kate was part great plains rat, I might not have bred her, or if I did I would have been certain to correctly label the babies. I was not given that choice.
When other genes are introduced, what you think you have is no longer what you have, and just because you don't care what pops out of your eggs does not mean that I don't care what pops out of mine.

 

[corn snake breeder]

i've just been reading how ultra is not corn snake its gray rat so my question to you all is why breed something to a corn and pass it off as a pure corn, why not just tell the truth and tell people they are hybrids. and what else in the corn snake morphs are hybrids with other snake species (i'm not on about the stuff we already know about i mean the other morphs i mean for all we know a Palmetto might be part king snake)

now i'm going to sell all my corns if that what they are, i think ill start a collection of old world rat snakes at least i will know they are pure and not crossed with any thing you want,
i think the american government are right they should make all reptile owners register there animals so we now who's breeding what.

Here is a list of corn snake hybrid
pueblacorn
jungle corn
beast corn
turbocorn
creamsicle corn
root beer corn
sinacorn

Personally a big fan hybrids. I hope to be breeding them soon.

 

[RobbiesCornField]

Here is a list of corn snake hybrid
pueblacorn
jungle corn
beast corn
turbocorn
creamsicle corn
root beer corn
sinacorn

Personally a big fan hybrids. I hope to be breeding them soon.

Yeeeeaaaaah, we're a bit past that now. Have you taken a peek at the rest of the thread?

 

[chris68]

Personally a big fan hybrids. I hope to be breeding them soon.

Doug you died a little bit more inside just now, didn't you

 

[DMong]

Doug you died a little bit more inside just now, didn't you

Yes, Chris,.that was absolutely shocking to hear in this thread.... ::laugh:



~Doug

 

[starsevol]

Here is a list of corn snake hybrid
pueblacorn
jungle corn
beast corn
turbocorn
creamsicle corn
root beer corn
sinacorn

Personally a big fan hybrids. I hope to be breeding them soon.

The word "corn" should not be in any of these, they are NOT corns.....

 

[Ryan Beatty]

Good grief...... A guy spends a day cleaning, feeding and breeding snakes and rodents all hell breaks out. :twohammer

Can't a guy breed a scarlet king to a burmese python in peace? :nyah:

Carinata, regarding the offer to be on your radio program. I will consider it but I'll admit I'm not much of a public speaker and I don't claim to know everything about hybrids or pure/natural species for that matter. I learn something new every breeding season.

Gerards, regarding your statement about how hybrids hurt your pure/natural stock. I have pure/natural stock in my collection as well. I am at the same "risk" as you and Doug of my pure/natural lines being contaminated by the irresponsible hybrid breeders as well.

The same risk stems from pure/natural breeders. My previous example of breeding a black rat to a gray rat that is mislabeled proves my point exactly. A noob can do just as much damage to pure/natural species with other pure/natural species as he can with a hybrid.

That's just it, we can't police everyone. You don't have to be just a pure/natural snake breeder or a hybrid snake breeder. Why can't you be both as I am?

99% of the time if I see an animal at a show or on-line labeled as a "hybrid king snake" or "hybrid milk snake" and that is all the seller knows about it, I avoid it like the freakin' PLAGUE!

I don't want someone else's unknown hybrids messing up the one's I've worked so hard on breeding and keeping records.

I understand about wanting to keep pure/natural lines clean but again there is nothing natural about what we do. We keep snakes in cages, on laboratory grade bedding, in climate controlled buildings and feed them frozen/thawed WHITE mice for the most part. The mice are kept on shavings, and fed commercial rodent diets and drink water from a water bottle or an automatic watering system, NONE of these things are natural. If you want to be a complete purist/naturalist then you need to catch your own wild mice/lizards/birds etc... that only occur in the exact locality that the pure/natural snake originated from, if you those things then you aren't a true purist/naturalist.

This "hobby" is supposed to be fun and something to enjoy, if Doug and others sharing his views are so upset about what's going on in the reptile community then maybe you should just get out of it and find something else to do with your spare time. :shrugs:

The exclusive hybrid breeders (which are the tiny minority) can't stop the pure/natural breeders from breeding their stuff just the same as the pure/natural breeders can't stop the hybrid breeders.

I know not everyone considers breeding snakes a hobby but the vast majority of keepers do. No one "has" to breed snakes, we choose to and we also have the choice to breed what we want pure/natural or hybrid.

I also do not appreciate being called "lazy/uneducated/greedy" as I am NONE of those things. As I stated in an earlier post it takes just as much work and intelligence to breed hybrids as it does pure/natural snakes. Nor am I greedy. I do not breed hybrids for the money, yes I make money from hybrids, I make money from most of the animals I breed b/c I have to make a living. That does not make me greedy.

I have animals to take care of so I'm a bowing out for now.

 

[dave partington]

I think taking a semen sample from a snake would actually be much less perverse than taping their cloacas shut, tricking them with shed skins, and swapping them around at the last second tricking them into "thinking" they are actually breeding with the right type of snake. After all, when a person tricks them into doing something that he/she is totally controlling, that seems to be part of the huge allure of doing it anyway.

It's the .......... "hey!, look what I made them do!!.....see!, it CAN be done!!.....WOO-HOOO!!!!" :dancer:



yeah, .........(cough) um.....wow!


~Doug

Doug, thanks for the info on shed snake skins to produce hybrids. I had not known about that so I did some independent research on that. Thanks for showing persons interested in producing what constitutes a hybrid that info. Rep coming in.

Meaning what exactly, pigment?, phenotype?.....if so, what about pigment or phenotype?


~Doug

have you noticed how the F1 offspring of hybrids have...
COLOR?
PATTERN?
Some of us say "that is wild type color/pattern"
they have a color.
Obviously there are compatible genes to affect and decide the color of the offspring.
Do we have names for these colors?
Are these colors desireable?
These "base colors" that happen when F1's of "unrelated as you define 'unrelated' " come into existence///

While humans and fruit flies have 60% matching genes, we cannot intermix, I tried. Perhaps too many generations of selective inbreeding of offspring that looked more like fruit flies have passed, so it is no longer possible for us to hybridize further, due to a diligent hand of a supernatural power, or, perhaps it's just too gross for humans to consider. i dunno. Suffice it to say, humans have inbred with each other so long that we can no longer " 'hybridize' , as you put it, with other 'species' ".

It has been said many times. You are to lazy/greedy/uneducated to care/admit/understand. It's about other people that do not know yet. There was a post earlier where the person found out years later they had hybrids and they were devastated. If it's not a big deal, why do you feel the need to defend it?

Thanks for sticking up for Beth. I like her too, and we've had Vodka together. Sure, there's some things we do not discuss with each other, but we both enjoy swordfish and Vodka. Though not necessarily in that order.

i've just been reading how ultra is not corn snake its gray rat so my question to you all is why breed something to a corn and pass it off as a pure corn, why not just tell the truth and tell people they are hybrids. and what else in the corn snake morphs are hybrids with other snake species (i'm not on about the stuff we already know about i mean the other morphs i mean for all we know a Palmetto might be part king snake)

now i'm going to sell all my corns if that what they are, i think ill start a collection of old world rat snakes at least i will know they are pure and not crossed with any thing you want,
i think the american government are right they should make all reptile owners register there animals so we now who's breeding what.

Thank you for starting this fun thread. Rep coming in...

Good grief...... yada yada yada.

Totally agree there...
Have you noticed that F1 hybrids have colors? And sometimes patterns too? Mendelian Genetics 101 teaches us that is because both parents have one set of the two which make one. it's like something in front of us that we can't see. Intelligent Design? Roll of the dice?

 

[Gerards]

I also do not appreciate being called "lazy/uneducated/greedy" as I am NONE of those things. As I stated in an earlier post it takes just as much work and intelligence to breed hybrids as it does pure/natural snakes. Nor am I greedy. I do not breed hybrids for the money, yes I make money from hybrids, I make money from most of the animals I breed b/c I have to make a living. That does not make me greedy.

I have animals to take care of so I'm a bowing out for now.

The lazy comment was directed at only one person. You and I are cool, you will be getting some cool stuff this year. Like I have said, I don't care if you breed hybrids. I only care about the byproduct that ends up with people that haven't learned what is what. You can say it doesn't matter, I will say it does. These people that feel the need to defend what they do, don't have too. It's not going to change my mind and who caes if it changes someone else's mind. If it's no big deal they should not be responding. I enjoyed talking with you and a few other hybrid guys on here. It's not about changing minds it about people being smart about what they do, you are and that's the best that can be asked of anyone.

 

[Rich Z]

Warning: The derogatory name calling WILL cease here, or offenders will be escorted OUT the door. If you cannot remain civil in this thread, then perhaps you need to think about abandoning this topic entirely before it gets you into hot water.

 

[ceduke]

Random: Due to my own idiocy, I may have "corn hogs" this year. >.< Put a snake in the wrong bin, left, and discovered my mistake two days later.