stupid breeders why cant you just leave things be

[SnakeAround]

Just because WORSE things can happen, does not change how I feel and felt about discovering my girl was part emoryi. One has nothing to do with the other.
Yes, I was devistated, and am still to this very day. I mean, what the hell?????

Disease, death, tsunamis, hurricanes, whatever....would devistate me more, but what does that have to do with anything??

If I had known from the start that my sweet Kate was part great plains rat, I might not have bred her, or if I did I would have been certain to correctly label the babies. I was not given that choice.
When other genes are introduced, what you think you have is no longer what you have, and just because you don't care what pops out of your eggs does not mean that I don't care what pops out of mine.

But to call it devestating seems out of line to me. No snakes are harmed, they still look the same, they are still healthy, they just do not meet the standards you thought they met. Of course that's a disappointment for you, I understand that. That is why I do label my snakes correctly and won't breed suspicious ones as being pure. I even e-mail people whom mislabel their snakes in ads on the internet because I do think it is important. But to expect us hybrid breeders to not sell any of them because they might end up in hands of less responsible people down the road, and call them lazy/greedy and such if they don't, is one bridge too far in my opinion, protecting what you like. I understand there is always gonna be situations in which people who have come to really care about purity find out a snake of theirs they bought before they really cared, which is usually how that happens I think. Well, I do think that people should be able to get over that and just sell the hybrid or not breed it anymore. Stuff happens and rationally the level of devastation seems quite bearable to me. Go buy than from the vast majority of breeders who do care and who are able to shield their collections and go on enjoying your hobby. If you do care about purity from the moment you start breeding and buying snakes, find fellow breeders with the same standards and you will be fine.

 

[starsevol]

But to call it devestating seems out of line to me. No snakes are harmed, they still look the same, they are still healthy, they just do not meet the standards you thought they met. Of course that's a disappointment for you, I understand that. That is why I do label my snakes correctly and won't breed suspicious ones as being pure. I even e-mail people whom mislabel their snakes in ads on the internet because I do think it is important. But to expect us hybrid breeders to not sell any of them because they might end up in hands of less responsible people down the road, and call them lazy/greedy and such if they don't, is one bridge too far in my opinion, protecting what you like. I understand there is always gonna be situations in which people who have come to really care about purity find out a snake of theirs they bought before they really cared, which is usually how that happens I think. Well, I do think that people should be able to get over that and just sell the hybrid or not breed it anymore. Stuff happens and rationally the level of devastation seems quite bearable to me. Go buy than from the vast majority of breeders who do care and who are able to shield their collections and go on enjoying your hobby. If you do care about purity from the moment you start breeding and buying snakes, find fellow breeders with the same standards and you will be fine.

For one thing, I NEVER called anyone lazy for greedy for breeding hybrids. I don't understand their motivation for doing it, but I NEVER EVER said those words. Reread my past posts, that was NOT me.

Second thing, who are you to tell me how I am supposed to feel? YES, I consider what I felt devistation. I actually felt sick to my stomach and couldn't sleep for a few nights. It REALLY REALLY bothered me. I was a newbie when I got her and didn't even know hybrids existed. She is now 16 years old, a little overweight but healthy as can be otherwise, and I love her alot, but she and I singlehandedly let alot of snakes into the pet population in this state that were not as stated. If I had known they were creams and rootbeers I would have made certain that they were labeled correctly in the pet shops, or would have chosen not to breed her at all. Don't you get it??

 

[Carinata]

So do you mean that the 3 Ball Python "locality types" are different looking inbred populations, which are isolated from one another in their natural environment, at this time on our ever changing 4 billion year old planet Earth?


http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=U...d=117941249246820370109.00045ceb937282ee46570

Dave, what I mean is, unlike Cornsnakes and many N.A. Colubrids, Ball Pythons don’t have sub-species they intergrade with. While there are locality types like sub-saharans, Togo, Ghana and Benin localities are all still Python regius. Now a lot of morphs come from certain “pockets”. A lot of your Pieds come in from an area of Ghana, a lot of your Lavender Albinos come from an area of Benin, etc. The thing is these are all still Ball Pythons and they don’t breed with other species in the wild, hence they are much more pure than many of our N.A. Colubrids.

 

[SnakeAround]

Bethany, I am only stating that I do not consider it to be a devestating event and maybe it would be better to be rational about it, and I truly cannot understand how such an abtract, quite arbitrary separation between species can actually upset you so much. You have given that event so much emotional value yourself. You feel sick because your snake carries some genes from another (sub)species and know you have spread its genes without knowing that. I truly cannot understand why that is worth feeling sick about, ratio tells me no snakes are harmed or suffering in anyway, they won't get sick, they won't die of it, they are not gonna pollute the wild population, the world is not gonna be a worse place to be because of it. I would be that upset about finding crypto in my collection, because my snakes would suffer from that. For me, that is an upsetting idea, which you also agree with I think. Of course I cannot explain why I do not want my snakes to suffer, but most people agree that they would be very upset if their pets suffer or are going to suffer. To me that seems a natural thing to feel for human beings. But to feel sick because you found out about some alien genes in your snake, to me is overdone and just an emotional/psychilogical burden you lay upon yourselves because you decided to breed with this standards. Some also think that people who do not feel the same are not professional, nor have high standards and should be talked down. I could say that whining about a couple of alien genes is childish or a sign of being emotionally unstable but I don't because I do not feel the need to talk you down because you are civil too. Yet I do think the whole fear of hybrid genes, considering what nature does itself, the arbitrary and ever changing definition of (sub)species, is a burden people lay upon themselves and that it is not worth feeling sick about. I have every right to have that opinion, though I won't judge you because you do feel sick about it.

I do know you did not call anyone lazy, greedy or such, sorry if it seemed that way. I was just stating in general that is not gonna work to convince people. You are being civil, even though I state my quite different opinion about a subject that touches you. I respect you for that.

 

[DMong]

Dave, what I mean is, unlike Cornsnakes and many N.A. Colubrids, Ball Pythons don’t have sub-species they intergrade with. While there are locality types like sub-saharans, Togo, Ghana and Benin localities are all still Python regius. Now a lot of morphs come from certain “pockets”. A lot of your Pieds come in from an area of Ghana, a lot of your Lavender Albinos come from an area of Benin, etc. The thing is these are all still Ball Pythons and they don’t breed with other species in the wild, hence they are much more pure than many of our N.A. Colubrids.

I also love how everything that happens to be kept and simply bred true, be it from the many different locales and/or sources with other same LIKE species/subspecies is always portrayed as "in-bred" and genetically "weaker" here..HAHAHA!!!


~Doug

 

[starsevol]

Thanks for sticking up for Beth. I like her too, and we've had Vodka together. Sure, there's some things we do not discuss with each other, but we both enjoy swordfish and Vodka. Though not necessarily in that order.

OMG We DID have vodka together, didn't we? One of the best nights of 2011 if you ask me!! Next time maybe we try the swordfish, huh?

Bethany, I am only stating that I do not consider it to be a devestating event and maybe it would be better to be rational about it, and I truly cannot understand how such an abtract, quite arbitrary separation between species can actually upset you so much. You have given that event so much emotional value yourself. You feel sick because your snake carries some genes from another (sub)species and know you have spread its genes without knowing that. I truly cannot understand why that is worth feeling sick about, ratio tells me no snakes are harmed or suffering in anyway, they won't get sick, they won't die of it, they are not gonna pollute the wild population, the world is not gonna be a worse place to be because of it. I would be that upset about finding crypto in my collection, because my snakes would suffer from that. For me, that is an upsetting idea, which you also agree with I think. Of course I cannot explain why I do not want my snakes to suffer, but most people agree that they would be very upset if their pets suffer or are going to suffer. To me that seems a natural thing to feel for human beings. But to feel sick because you found out about some alien genes in your snake, to me is overdone and just an emotional/psychilogical burden you lay upon yourselves because you decided to breed with this standards. Some also think that people who do not feel the same are not professional, nor have high standards and should be talked down. I could say that whining about a couple of alien genes is childish or a sign of being emotionally unstable but I don't because I do not feel the need to talk you down because you are civil too. Yet I do think the whole fear of hybrid genes, considering what nature does itself, the arbitrary and ever changing definition of (sub)species, is a burden people lay upon themselves and that it is not worth feeling sick about. I have every right to have that opinion, though I won't judge you because you do feel sick about it.

I do know you did not call anyone lazy, greedy or such, sorry if it seemed that way. I was just stating in general that is not gonna work to convince people. You are being civil, even though I state my quite different opinion about a subject that touches you. I respect you for that.

Heck, yes I found this sickening and devistating..no doubt about it. Being someone who creates hybrids, OF COURSE you can't understand why this upset me so much. OF COURSE you think I am making too much of this. Because you and I are on opposite sides of the fence on this issue. You are not equipped to understand why this upset me so damn much!

But if one of my animals is suffering I will probably need to be hospitalized. I just love them so much.....

 

[Gerards]

I do know you did not call anyone lazy, greedy or such, sorry if it seemed that way. I was just stating in general that is not gonna work to convince people. You are being civil, even though I state my quite different opinion about a subject that touches you. I respect you for that.

Yes, that was me calling you that. I was not saying that you, the whole person are. It meant to me, your ideas on the subject are. It's not a put down on you. You seem to think I'm trying to convince you of something. I'm sorry if my honest choice of words was offensive. I will not use them again. She is telling you that what happen to her really upset her and your trying to convince her otherwise. You are not going to be convinced of anything, I would stop using that argument and stick to the benefits of making hybrids, which there are none.

 

[SnakeAround]

OMG We DID have vodka together, didn't we? One of the best nights of 2011 if you ask me!! Next time maybe we try the swordfish, huh?



Heck, yes I found this sickening and devistating..no doubt about it. Being someone who creates hybrids, OF COURSE you can't understand why this upset me so much. OF COURSE you think I am making too much of this. Because you and I are on opposite sides of the fence on this issue. You are not equipped to understand why this upset me so damn much!

But if one of my animals is suffering I will probably need to be hospitalized. I just love them so much.....

I could say that you are not equipped to understand why I do not get upset by it. You are overemotional and miss the skills to be rational. Do I do that? No, because I do know that most people have some values they cannot truly rationally express, but they just feel that way about something very strongly. I am ok with that as long as they do not bother me with it or try to make me feel the same about it too in a harsh way (not that I say you do) and only because they think theri standards are higher/better. I do admit I am a very rational person though. I cannot think of any principle of mine that is not rationally explainable, except stuff like I won't breed byproducts which I know I cannot sell and than kill them. That is part my consciousness, which is of course formed by values that family/society taught me and genetics . And of course the usual stuff like rape and stealing is a bad thing to do. Except if any innocent being is hurt, physically or mentally, I am not easily upset.

 

[SnakeAround]

Yes, that was me calling you that. I was not saying that you, the whole person are. It meant to me, your ideas on the subject are. It's not a put down on you. You seem to think I'm trying to convince you of something. I'm sorry if my honest choice of words was offensive. I will not use them again. She is telling you that what happen to her really upset her and your trying to convince her otherwise. You are not going to be convinced of anything, I would stop using that argument and stick to the benefits of making hybrids, which there are none.

Thanks for that Gerards, appreciate that! I truly feel sorry for Bethany, I do not want her to be hurt. It is quite common to rationalize a hurtfull event to help someone get over it, don't you think? There is too much to worry about in the world or anybody's personal life, why worry about something that is not literarily hurting your still good looking animal? Try to fix it as good as you can and accept that someone probably made a mistake or lied to you, so maybe your project is ruined but you do have a chance to start a brand new one now. I'm a positive person, which does help me through events I do not particularly like.

 

[starsevol]

I could say that you are not equipped to understand why I do not get upset by it. You are overemotional and miss the skills to be rational. Do I do that? No, because I do know that most people have some values they cannot truly rationally express, but they just feel that way about something very strongly. QUOTE]

Then I will say it, I am not equipped to understand why you do not get upset by it. Nope, I am not at all. I do not believe that I am overemotional about screwing up pure bloodlines in my state because the breeder did not tell me that my corn snake is not a corn snake. No rationally needed, any of those snakes purchased as corns were not corns at all, and anything they ever produce will not be corns BECAUSE I DID NOT KNOW. Those babies were scattered far and wide and I hope none of them ever got bred.

 

[starsevol]

Thanks for that Gerards, appreciate that! I truly feel sorry for Bethany, I do not want her to be hurt. It is quite common to rationalize a hurtfull event to help someone get over it, don't you think? There is too much to worry about in the world or anybody's personal life, why worry about something that is not literarily hurting your still good looking animal? Try to fix it as good as you can and accept that someone probably made a mistake or lied to you, so maybe your project is ruined but you do have a chance to start a brand new one now. I'm a positive person, which does help me through events I do not particularly like.

I do appreciate that, thank you. I was too much of a newb back then to even have a project to ruin.
My girl Kate is a little too brown for my taste, but she is a nice trouble free gentle animal.

 

[DMong]

Thanks for that Gerards, appreciate that! I truly feel sorry for Bethany, I do not want her to be hurt. It is quite common to rationalize a hurtfull event to help someone get over it, don't you think? There is too much to worry about in the world or anybody's personal life, why worry about something that is not literarily hurting your still good looking animal? Try to fix it as good as you can and accept that someone probably made a mistake or lied to you, so maybe your project is ruined but you do have a chance to start a brand new one now. I'm a positive person, which does help me through events I do not particularly like.

That's the same logic and rationale I use, only it's obviously applied very differently with this particular issue. Nobody can un-do, or take back all the stuff out there in the hobby mainstream, or change what has already been done. But they CAN control what they do in the future. That's my main point and objective in all of this.


~Doug

 

[Gerards]

Thanks for that Gerards, appreciate that! I truly feel sorry for Bethany, I do not want her to be hurt. It is quite common to rationalize a hurtfull event to help someone get over it, don't you think? There is too much to worry about in the world or anybody's personal life, why worry about something that is not literarily hurting your still good looking animal? Try to fix it as good as you can and accept that someone probably made a mistake or lied to you, so maybe your project is ruined but you do have a chance to start a brand new one now. I'm a positive person, which does help me through events I do not particularly like.

Because, now to us they are not the animals we wanted. It doesn't mean they are bad animals, it's not their fault. It's kthe people who make and sell them as what they are not. Someone said if it looks like a sinaloan, why not call it one? That's the problem, I want a sinaloan, not some of a sinaloan. You will never be able to understand how people feel about this. You are trying to rationalize it but that's not possible. It's not that someone made a mistake, you(being people that make hybrids, not you, don't get all bent out of shape) made them on purpose. It wasn't a mistake that she ended up with a animal she thought was something else. It's the perfect example of how someone that hasn't learned it yet ends up with your(same your as the you above) animals. Then you say, it's no big deal, don't worry about it. That's not ok!

 

[BloodyBaroness]

Seriously, I guess I'll have to spell this out very plainly. WORST CASE SCENARIO someone breeds 2 corns and finds out "uh oh, one of the parents might have had some kingsnake influence." This is the worst case scenario, so that person doesn't admit this and all sells them all as pure corns. The buyers are too stupid to realize they got 88% cornsnakes, 12% kingsnakes (remember, worst case). Seeing them as corns, they breed them to more corns. Now all of these offspring look like corns, but (gasp) they're actually 6.5% kingsnake! As their offspring make their way out into other collections, this trend continues until every corn in America is 0.0000023% kingsnake! The worst part is, no one knows about it because they all look and act just like "pure" corns. Oh the horror. :sobstory:

I kind of love you for this.

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

HOWEVER, I think all of this has gone overboard, ramped a cliff, fell in a wood chipper, and caught fire.

I like hybrids. *gasp* Say it ain't so! I have no issue with people who breed them, as long as they do their best to inform buyers of the species involved.

I like pure locality snakes. *gasp* Say it ain't so! It's nice to a particular locality look preserved and enhanced by breeding "pure" lines.

No need to get all Fascist and scream from the hills "MY COLLECTION IS SUPERIOR!! YOU SUCK!"

The point of this hobby is to work with things you like and what makes you happy.

If Doug wants to militantly guard the pure/locality lines, then great for Doug. It's what he likes. It makes him happy. He lets potential buyers know exactly what they are getting, and the work that went into it.

If Ryan wants to mix and mingle to make hybrids, then great for Ryan. It's what he likes. It makes him happy. He lets potential buyers know exactly what they are getting, and the work that went into it.

See my point?

Then the argument comes in about what happens after the sale.

Oh no! Someone purchased a snake from Ryan and did not label the offspring correctly.

Oh no! Someone purchased a snake from Doug and used it to make a hybrid.

NONE of us have control over an animal after the sale. ZERO, ZIP, NOTHING.

It's a risk we take.

Fighting among ourselves is pointless.

No one in this thread can make me like the color pink. I don't care how hard you try. I won't spend 30+ pages bickering about it. Be reasonable and try to see where someone else is coming from.
Not just waaahmypointisbetterscreamrantnamecallnoise!

Label what you produce, be passionate about your animals, and do your best to educate buyers. Don't crucify someone because they don't think the way you do. We are human, not clone stamped robots, being different makes life more interesting.

 

[SnakeAround]

Well ok Bethany, than I misunderstood your wording as being a bit condescending. Let us agree to disagree but hopefully with mutual respect and the understanding that both sides are having a subjective opinion, neither views are facts. We both seem indeed wired differently and not able to understand each other. That goes for most hybrid breeders I think, but I do hope that proper labeling will be accepted as the highest goal we can reach for, because giving up what we like would not be fair to ask.

I must say that your civil posts made me realize this better than all other posts so far.

 

[SnakeAround]

Excellent post Barones!

YAY it looks like we are goign to be able to respectfully agree to disagree

 

[DMong]

I could say that you are not equipped to understand why I do not get upset by it. You are overemotional and miss the skills to be rational. Do I do that? No, because I do know that most people have some values they cannot truly rationally express, but they just feel that way about something very strongly. QUOTE]

Then I will say it, I am not equipped to understand why you do not get upset by it. Nope, I am not at all. I do not believe that I am overemotional about screwing up pure bloodlines in my state because the breeder did not tell me that my corn snake is not a corn snake. No rationally needed, any of those snakes purchased as corns were not corns at all, and anything they ever produce will not be corns BECAUSE I DID NOT KNOW. Those babies were scattered far and wide and I hope none of them ever got bred.

Just imagine what mine and Gerard's good "buddy" (sarcasm) Thomas Davis' mutt breeding MBK (L.g.nigrita) x white-sided Florida kings will be doing later on down the road as they get carelessly dispersed around the country. Later on MBK and Desert king (L.g.splendida) breeders with the real thing will be producing odd white-side looking garbage from there thought to be authentic clutches. By thos very same token, other Florida king breeders around the country will later be popping out bizarre looking hypermelanistic so-called "floridana". And all of these will trace directly back to this clown Davis. This is what WILL happen in a few more years. Those mutts he is all proud of selling are more variable looking than circus freak show. Some look like splendida phenotypes, others like drab, dark floridana, and anything in between. His mojor goal of producing this worthless "Black back" king project is going to later be responsible for spoiling many countless authentic clutches in a few more years when others grow his mutt offspring up. Not just a few either, but by the countless folds because these mutts will be multiplied many times over as those babie's babies mature and are bred too.

Sweet stuff for sure :nope:


~Doug

 

[BloodyBaroness]

Excellent post Barones!

YAY it looks like we are going to be able to respectfully agree to disagree

Thank you.

You are always going to have extremist on either side, but we really should all be able to find a happy middle of the road.

You get more people to understand your opinion with calm, well worded posts, than with sarcastic laced jabs and thinly veiled insults.

This is actually a brilliant article about why humans will never understand each other. Link-----> http://www.cracked.com/blog/4-reasons-humans-will-never-understand-each-other/

 

[BloodyBaroness]

Just imagine what mine and Gerard's good "buddy" (sarcasm) Thomas Davis' mutt breeding MBK (L.g.nigrita) x white-sided Florida kings will be doing later on down the road as they get carelessly dispersed around the country. Later on MBK and Desert king (L.g.splendida) breeders with the real thing will be producing odd white-side looking garbage from there thought to be authentic clutches. By thos very same token, other Florida king breeders around the country will later be popping out bizarre looking hypermelanistic so-called "floridana". And all of these will trace directly back to this clown Davis. This is what WILL happen in a few more years. Those mutts he is all proud of selling are more variable looking than circus freak show. Some look like splendida phenotypes, others like drab, dark floridana, and anything in between. His mojor goal of producing this worthless "Black back" king project is going to later be responsible for spoiling many countless authentic clutches in a few more years when others grow his mutt offspring up. Not just a few either, but by the countless folds because these mutts will be multiplied many times over as those babie's babies mature and are bred too.

Sweet stuff for sure :nope:


~Doug

All I have to say to this is...so what?

I sincerely doubt that Thomas's actions are going to bring down the Florida Kings... If so, then logic would dictate the first hybrid cross of corns would have brought down the trade ages ago.

Doug, we totally get that you are passionate about "pure" things. Just take it easy.

 

[Christen]

I don't understand what is so hard to understand about how Beth felt. I also think hybrids are cool and will some day breed some myself. But how can anyone not see what she is talking about? She felt lied to and cheated for not being told a snake is what it is. Then in turn unknowingly lied and cheated others. That would make me sick to my stomach but I hate lairs and cheaters. Would I be devastated? No probably not but it would bother me. However, I can take those same principle and apply it to something that would devastate me and understand where Beth is coming from.

I think that is the biggest point that everyone misses from all these debates lately. We don't have to agree but we can learn from each other and understand what the other one is talking about. We might change something that we do in consideration for the other. For example I agree with Beth that non of the corn hybrids should be called Corns. So if you start labeling your snakes as KingXCorn instead of Jungle corns that might make Beth (just using you as an example) happy and in turn when she comes across someone looking for a Jungle Corn she will refer them to you because you make sure the buyer knows what they are getting.

I don't know just a thought. :shrugs: