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stupid breeders why cant you just leave things be

Carpe Serpentis said:
You are missing the biggest point perhaps.... and that point is that how we classify an animal is simply a human construct and it changes. For example, a mutt becomes a recognized breed when a group of humans decide it warrants classification as an new breed. What is a defining characteristic of a breed... it must breed true for starters. So, the old argument that you are creating mutts is not a good one as it is actually how breeds are created. If you don't want new breeds that is fine, but calling breeders stupid for wanting to do what we as humans have actively engaged in for much of our recorded history and then relating how a pug bred to a zu is a mutt... well it clearly shows that not much is understood on exactly how a new breed comes about as that is exactly how a new breed comes about.
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BSLMichael said:
Thats pretty much it it seems. But i think he may be also saying that is happens often and has been for a long time so it shouldn't be something regarded as offensive.
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I'll respond to both of these at the same time.

1) I've never said, or found, hybrids or mutts offensive, repulsive, etc. I, personally, believe that hybrids and mutts are beautiful, and should be admired for the beautiful human assisted creatures they are.

2) There is a VAST difference between creating a new breed of dog, and "creating" a new SPECIES of snake. Breeds of dog are not recognized as different species, because they have developed due to the aid of humans. Species are recognized by the scientific community, whereas dog breeds are recognized by the "AKC", or other kennel organizations. The fact of the matter is that dogs, while varying greatly in appearance, are still genetically similar enough to be one species. Hybridizing or creating intergrades of snakes requires having two or more different *species* altogether breed. A similar example would be mules, ligers, tions, etc. NONE of those are recognized as a "new" species, and have been around for years longer than any hybrid snake keepers have come up with. Even the greenish rat snake, a naturally occurring hybrid, isn't classified as it's own species. We're not creating "breeds" of snake. We're crossing species lines.
 
I would like to apologize for how long it takes me to respond sometimes. I'm at work, and might not be able to respond as quickly as I'd like to.

Carpe Serpentis said:
I would love to hear a single cogent reason for why hybridizing pet snakes is offensive.
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Aaaaand I'm not responding again to you until you've read the thread in it's entirety, since you've clearly missed quite a few well thought-out posts.
 
Species lines are routinely crossed by hybridizers. The green peacock x blue peacock... for instance... are actually different species that are breed together to create emerald peacocks.
 
Carpe Serpentis said:
Species lines are routinely crossed by hybridizers. The green peacock x blue peacock... for instance... are actually different species that are breed together to create emerald peacocks.
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Again. Your point? This has nothing to do with snakes.

Since you seem to be far too lazy to read the thread, I'll sum it up for you.

SOME PEOPLE LIKE HYBRIDS. SOME DON'T. DEAL WITH IT.
 
I'm sorry. That last part might have seemed rude. But so is not reading the thread in it's entirety and expecting someone else to come along and provide you with the Cliff's notes.
 
Canis lupus x Canis lupus familiaris has been created as well. There are also coydogs... coyote (Canis latrans x family dog if you will. Coyotes only breed once a year, while a domestic dog can breed much more frequently than that. These are naturally occurring hybrids... i.e. they occur in nature. The species barrier is broken in nature.... it happens and those hybrids are often times fertile both ways or one way depending on how close those species are.
 
You are right, you are rude. You are also right that some people like hybrids and some don't. To hybridize or not to hybridize is a subjective matter and not an objective matter any way you slice it.
 
Fig 1. Internet Troll Trollus Internetum

A person whose sole purpose in life is to seek out people to argue with on the internet over extremely trivial issues. Such arguments can happen on blogs, Facebook, Myspace and a host of others.
The best thing you can do to fight an internet troll is to not answer..or report them.

Fig 2. Thread Necromancer Threadinae Necromantic

One who resurrects extremely old threads in discussion forums.

It appears we have a hybrid of Trollus Internetum x Threadinae Necromantic on our hands.
 
This is what I understand, if you don't agree with the majority that hybridizing is wrong then your wrong? Yeah, that seems stupid enough to me, but so does posting a post that is so obviously calling hybridizers stupid... not exactly veiled comment for sure. Someone with a backbone that supports hybridizing comes along and you attempt to brow beat that person into submission by making attempting to make them seem inferior. We have a word for that type of behavior in school that we used a lot. Perhaps you remember the term... bully? Social pressure has its uses, but surely a subject as subjective as this can be agreed to have no objective answer and thus arguing that hybridizers are stupid is about as poignant as remarking that purists are stupid. Bottom line, opinion is never objective and this is all this thread is about. Its opinion no matter how you attempt to slice it. There are the purists who have their strong opinion and there are the hybridizers who have their opinion. Lets not make this into anything other than that though as its all subjective.
 
Dude. Just dude.

We are not agreeing or disagreeing with or against hybrids. IF you READ the thread, that was CLEARLY spelled out. Both sides brought up EXCELLENT points and a mutual decision was reached that everyone is FREE to breed what THEY like.

It was great resolution and many many good points for BOTH sides were made. People understood each other better.

You are making yourself sound ignorant, I do not think that's what you aiming for.
 
Read that already, and that is apparent... i.e. no decision needed to be made to allow that. It was already happening.
Its like giving permission to a kid to masturbate. News flash, they were already doing it.
 
Irrational fear, I find that ignorant. Calling breeders stupid... I find that ignorant. So, if my coming into this discussion and pointing out that it is all subjective is ignorant, then I'm as ignorant as it gets.
 
Ugh.
This Carpe person is bridgey and just joined here.
Probably to cause trouble.
Where is the "Troll be gone" spray?
 
Kevin S. said:
Doug, I've generally enjoyed interacting with you online in the past-shame I can't say the same right now though. Since you believe ignorance to be the reason some of us support hybrids, I'd just like to state for the record that I have a master's in biology (obtained in a herp natural history lab). So I can say with some confidence that my understanding of these issues is just fine. You keep advocating for pure species and subspecies-that's why your argument is inherently flawed. There is no universal agreement in the scientific community on just what a species is and most don't even view subspecies as a valid concept (though I personally like it).

Everyone is quick to shoot down the dog comparisons since they are the same species. That's just a testament to the flaws of our taxonomic system-a great dane and chihuahua are the same species, but a black rat snake is a different species depending on which side of the river you find it. That just shows the glaring lack of objectivity that no one acknowledges in taxonomy.

Putting that aside, you can certainly split snakes into ever more exclusive groups using a variety of criteria. It just depends on how finely you want to split hairs. If you want to keep only the most exclusively untainted Hondurans from original imports, more power to you. Just because you chase that idea of "purity" so fervently doesn't mean the rest of the hobby as a whole shares your views or should change its standards to accomodate you though. At the end of the day, we all keep snakes in boxes-if you want yours to look as indistinguishable from an import as possible, that's fine, but that doesn't make your collection morally superior to one with characteristics not found in wild snakes.

There's room for purists and hybridizers to coexist in this hobby. You just wouldn't know it judging from the frequent attacks from the vocal minority of ultra purists. Obviously you disagree and nothing I say will change your mind, but hopefully we can get this back on a civil track.
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This again, "You keep advocating for pure species and subspecies-that's why your argument is inherently flawed. There is no universal agreement in the scientific community on just what a species is and most don't even view subspecies as a valid concept" Now this guy, I can agree with. Voicing ones opinion otherwise known as freedom of speech, is something I love. Probably why I voiced my own opinion in this thread. I agree we all have a right to our own opinion, but to express opinion as fact is absurd and the true definition of stupid.
 
Carpe you joined 4 days ago and have posted on 9 different threads for a total of 23 posts as of a few minutes ago. 15 posts on this thread, a single post on 8 other threads. 7 of those other posts were about hybrids too.

So 22/23 posts on hybrids. I get it. You like hybrids. Great. There are some I like too. Others don't. That's great too. But we don't need to fight over it.

This thread was dead. You revived it and added nothing new to it. If you want to debate something, I politely suggest you join a debate team somewhere. You are not making friends nor influencing anyone here. You are registering as a pest in many peoples eyes here. If that is what you want, you are succeeding beyond your wildest dreams.

So ask yourself, what is it you want to accomplish here? And is this getting you to that goal?

As for me, I'm done with this thread bye-bye. :wavey: :wavey: :wavey:
 
Starsevol, your assumption that I joined to cause trouble is just that, an assumption. Did you mom ever tell you what happens when you assume? Seriously, I joined as I love snakes. Corn snakes, I love them as well, but mostly, I love hybrids and hybridizing. The first time I saw corn snakes not in a book was in a reptile store in Gainesville, Florida. My daughter was just being born and I fell in love with the corn snake hybrids I saw in that store. That was more than a decade ago. I'm not in the Army any longer so I don't have to worry about traveling with pets anymore being an issue. My oldest son is in college and my youngest son is in the Marines. Don't assume to know what a persons reasons are for posting their opinion, but rather, ask them why they felt the need to post if it upsets you. Often times, you'll find that they will tell you more truth than you are prepared for.
 
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