stupid breeders why cant you just leave things be

[Carpe Serpentis]

I didn't realize the strong flack I would gather from simply adding my opinion to this thread. I don't respond well to censorship be it from social pressures or otherwise. As for your opinion Pugsley, when I want it I'll ask for it! Seriously, I came into this post to post my opinion and met with strong criticism of it. Did I realize it was my opinion? Yeah, did I realize this entire thread was almost entirely full of subjective opinion? Yes! Seriously, if you are going to have free speech and opinion which I applaud, you must allow it equally and to all members new and old.

 

[MysticExotics]

Damn. Out of rep.

Can someone get Mrs. Darth Vader for me, please?

Got it.

Fig 1. Internet Troll Trollus Internetum

A person whose sole purpose in life is to seek out people to argue with on the internet over extremely trivial issues. Such arguments can happen on blogs, Facebook, Myspace and a host of others.
The best thing you can do to fight an internet troll is to not answer..or report them.

Fig 2. Thread Necromancer Threadinae Necromantic

One who resurrects extremely old threads in discussion forums.

It appears we have a hybrid of Trollus Internetum x Threadinae Necromantic on our hands.

Would that be considered a hybrid?? :sidestep:

Carpe you joined 4 days ago and have posted on 9 different threads for a total of 23 posts as of a few minutes ago. 15 posts on this thread, a single post on 8 other threads. 7 of those other posts were about hybrids too.

So 22/23 posts on hybrids. I get it. You like hybrids. Great. There are some I like too. Others don't. That's great too. But we don't need to fight over it.

This thread was dead. You revived it and added nothing new to it. If you want to debate something, I politely suggest you join a debate team somewhere. You are not making friends nor influencing anyone here. You are registering as a pest in many peoples eyes here. If that is what you want, you are succeeding beyond your wildest dreams.

So ask yourself, what is it you want to accomplish here? And is this getting you to that goal?

As for me, I'm done with this thread bye-bye. :wavey: :wavey: :wavey:

Very well put.

 

[Christen]

Damn. Out of rep.

Can someone get Mrs. Darth Vader for me, please?

Just as added measure, I gotcha to.

 

[Carpe Serpentis]

So, to point out the obvious, those supporting hybridizing will be made fun of or otherwise denigrated. Got it. I still support and love hybrids. Just trying to see the internal politics and if this social pressure to demonize those that support hybrids actually works. Being the new guy on the block, I realize I'm probably getting even more social pressure to keep me in line to so to speak, but then freedom to speak you mind was never free. It was always earned on the backs of soldiers of which I am proud to be from a long line of. In as much as that is true, I still support your right to speak your mind even when it is completely asinine and little more than denigrating in nature. Just don't expect me to respect you in the morning.

 

[Christen]

So, to point out the obvious, those supporting hybridizing will be made fun of or otherwise denigrated. Got it. I still support and love hybrids. Just trying to see the internal politics and if this social pressure to demonize those that support hybrids actually works. Being the new guy on the block, I realize I'm probably getting even more social pressure to keep me in line to so to speak, but then freedom to speak you mind was never free. It was always earned on the backs of soldiers of which I am proud to be from a long line of. In as much as that is true, I still support your right to speak your mind even when it is completely asinine and little more than denigrating in nature. Just don't expect me to respect you in the morning.

No body here is saying that at all. READ THE THREAD!! If you would read the thread you will see that those other than starvesol that responded to YOU aren't against hybrids. Starevol is a friend of ours and she knows our views and we know and understand hers. No one is degrading anyone, you are turning it that way.

 

[Carpe Serpentis]

I have read the thread and do see that others are for hybrids. Heck, I've even quoted at least one of them from many pages ago. As for not being degraded, I'm not insulting myself. I am however reading the posts that are insulting and denigrating posted by others. I can't be responsible for those posts as they are not mine.

 

[Carpe Serpentis]

I can't make others be rude or denigrating. They do that all on their own.

 

[DMong]

I would love to hear a single cogent reason for why hybridizing pet snakes is offensive.

You could go back and read many of my valid reasons in between all the fighting and insults.. Thing is, if people don't care to hear about all of the valid reasons, it is a complete waste of time to do so. I could write a book on this topic to be quite honest, and I've made many hundreds of different posts regarding this in many forums and conversations.

Snakes are not "dog breeds", and comparing them to AKC registered showdogs isn't the same thing at all, other than the show dogs do indeed represent the specific breed and what it was bred for. Dogs were all mostly crossed for very specific purposes over the course of history. What certain hybrids and indistinguishable crossed snakes do to authentic collections throughout the country is not anything the same at all. When a hybrid snake can pull a snow sled or retrieve a duck from a lake and bring it back to me, then I'd reconsider that they had some sort of useful purpose other than diluting other hobbyists authentic stuff.

I don't want to keep re-hashing this same old thread, but please read many of Gerard's and my posts in this thread and you will see what the issues really are with them. Whether certain folks want to accept and acknowledge these valid reasons is a totally different story altogether. Many of today's hobbyists don't care at all, and a portion of the hobby are very hardcore and adamant about it. To really, really know what you are getting and working with is the real-deal, the hobby needs people that think the way I and others do, if it doesn't matter, and the people don't know any better, then they go anywhere and get anything and it is fine with them bnecause all they basically care about is having a serpent, not a specific kind. In short, that's the difference. By this same token, if a guy wants a geuine restored '63 split-wndow Corvette coupe, he will go to a source that knows the difference between a real matching numbers authentic Corvette and a bogus fiberglass kit car with the wiring going everywhere but from a distance it looks close enough for many. Other folks like authentic, not sort of, or fairly close, or a Corvette with Ford Pinto parts bolted onto it.

Morphs?,...same thing, as long as they are a genuine subspecies and are not produced from a stolen albino gene from something half way across the world, all is good.

These are just the tip of the iceberg reasons, I could go on for 10 more feet of typing, but I'm not about to do this all over again. :argue:


cheers, ~Doug

 

[AliCat37]

I like hybrids.


I didn't read the whole 48 pages of the thread.

 

[Carpe Serpentis]

Lol, shame on you AliCat! May the thread police pounce on you and feed you to the mice.

 

[screamindemon17]

Great i got into this drama .... As many people say. To each there own. So all the personel attacks are crap.. come on nature is nature let it happen.

 

[Carpe Serpentis]

Thanks for getting yourself into this drama. Your opinion matters just as much as the next persons. Those who stand for nothing fall for anything. I for one refuse to have others opinions pushed on me as facts. I will always stand up for your right to voice your opinion however, don't be surprised if I call you on it.

 

[DMong]

Thanks for getting yourself into this drama. Your opinion matters just as much as the next persons. Those who stand for nothing fall for anything. I for one refuse to have others opinions pushed on me as facts. I will always stand up for your right to voice your opinion however, don't be surprised if I call you on it.

It can often take many years to be able to accurately differentiate opinions from facts. I am ALL about facts as a matter of fact. :laugh: Many folks don't like to hear or acknowledge facts because it goes directly against their personal agendas in the first place, so it's easier to sweep it under the rug and carry on as always.

This hobby is very similar to "the Emperor has no cloths" story in many ways. Not everyone can see what is really going on, only a percentage of the people can.

"Those who stand for nothing fall for anything" This statement represents my stance on the issue perfectly.



~Doug

 

[Carpe Serpentis]

I can respect anyones desire to have a specimen that is for all intensive purposes wild or from a specific location. I can respect the desire to keep such notes on a particular snake and the location it was collected and even notes on what location variety it was breed to. These notes are desired for hybrids as well. You want to know what your working with and if something of note comes about, you want to know where that something of note is most probably coming from. The bottom line is its nice to know what your working with and that goes for the purists as well as those that like hybrids. If you sneak a gene from an unknown hybrid and breed it back to look pure in hopes of passing it as a new morph/mutation etc... then that is unethical. If you outwardly profess that hybridizing is a bad thing and then use it to create your own morphs/mutations etc. and if your smart enough to breed it back to an original type and thus make it look 99.99% true to species/form then you are actively deceiving another.

 

[Susan]

Irrational fear, I find that ignorant. Calling breeders stupid... I find that ignorant. So, if my coming into this discussion and pointing out that it is all subjective is ignorant, then I'm as ignorant as it gets.

Please note that the OP of the thread, the member that used the term "stupid", has not replied to this thread since 3/24/12. You are arguing mostly with members that hold the same viewpoint as yourself. You seem to be simply arguing for the sake of argument, hence, you ARE acting like a troll in that respect.

If you were actually paying attention, your initial post in this thread was NOT commented. It was only until you were spouting the irrelevant facts about dog breeds and mutts that other members tried to make you see how that is different from crossing species, at which point, you started arguing with them, failing to see their point. Hybridization between species has been going on for a long time. We know that. It is just that some people prefer that their snakes not have any other species' genes anywhere in their lineage. Mules are great and serve a wonderful purpose, but if someone purchased a Thoroughbred to enter in the Kentucky Derby, it won, and when they put it out to stud, the first offspring ended up being a throwback mule, that person has every right to be pissed off. THAT is the argument about hybrids.

This is a free forum. ALL of it's members are allowed to voice their opinions. HOWEVER, all of it's members need to keep it civil. NO personal attacks, name-calling or abusive chatter. To violate these rules will result in infractions. Accumulate enough points, or simply cross too far over the line, you WILL be issued a temporary ban. Continue and it will be made permanent.

 

[dave partington]

Mules are great and serve a wonderful purpose, but if someone purchased a Thoroughbred to enter in the Kentucky Derby, it won, and when they put it out to stud, the first offspring ended up being a throwback mule, that person has every right to be pissed off. THAT is the argument about hybrids.

I did 3 hybrid projects this year.
One resulted in a single fertile egg and a mess of slugs. That baby looks like a hybrid.
The second clutch produced 12 eggs, of which all hatched, and they visually are obvious hybrids. (cremesicle stuff). With the exception of two of them.
The third hybrid clutch produced babies which, if they were unlabeled, could easily be mistaken for cornsnakes. For this reason, all of clutch #3 is kingsnake food.
I avoid acquiring/purchasing snakes when the full lineage is unknown.
A lot of "Morph ID Please" threads appear on many forum threads regularly, from persons who have acquired a new pet, and they receive responses as to what their snakes are. I avoid those for the most part. Just because it looks like such a such, does not mean it is not carrying a mule gene.
Just for kicks and giggles, I recently posted this thread.
I intentionally left out the fact that they contain cremesicle to see if anyone would call me on it.

 

[bitsy]

Just for kicks and giggles, I recently posted this thread.
I intentionally left out the fact that they contain cremesicle to see if anyone would call me on it.

Susan's come pretty close to calling you on it if you read it to the end.

You're someone who's respected on the board as knowing your morphs and your hybrids. If you're as specific about parentage as you were on that thread, then nobody is likely to question what you're saying. That would be effectively calling you a liar, which would be rude to someone of your standing here.

 

[Carpe Serpentis]

Please note that the OP of the thread, the member that used the term "stupid", has not replied to this thread since 3/24/12. You are arguing mostly with members that hold the same viewpoint as yourself. You seem to be simply arguing for the sake of argument, hence, you ARE acting like a troll in that respect.

If you were actually paying attention, your initial post in this thread was NOT commented. It was only until you were spouting the irrelevant facts about dog breeds and mutts that other members tried to make you see how that is different from crossing species, at which point, you started arguing with them, failing to see their point. Hybridization between species has been going on for a long time. We know that. It is just that some people prefer that their snakes not have any other species' genes anywhere in their lineage. Mules are great and serve a wonderful purpose, but if someone purchased a Thoroughbred to enter in the Kentucky Derby, it won, and when they put it out to stud, the first offspring ended up being a throwback mule, that person has every right to be pissed off. THAT is the argument about hybrids.

This is a free forum. ALL of it's members are allowed to voice their opinions. HOWEVER, all of it's members need to keep it civil. NO personal attacks, name-calling or abusive chatter. To violate these rules will result in infractions. Accumulate enough points, or simply cross too far over the line, you WILL be issued a temporary ban. Continue and it will be made permanent.

Your comment, "if you were actually paying attention" is condescending. Your comment, " You were spouting irrelevant facts" is your opinion. Your mule comment is a little detracting from your point as mules have 63 chromosomes. Horses have 64 chromosomes and donkeys have 62 chromosomes. Suffice it to say instances like this generally are frequently sterile or have reduced fertility. However, it should be noted that in many crosses involving a different chromosome number the cross is generally more successful when the female has the higher chromosome count.

You other comment about a thoroughbred horse giving birth to a mule... it would only happen if the mother was bred to a donkey. So, while your comment is moot, I do understand the point you are trying to make and I covered that... records should be kept by purists and hybrid lovers alike. Now, with purists you have the desire by some of staunchest purists to keep location varieties of particular species or subspecies pure. What this means is that if a snake is found in Raleigh, NC that it should only be breed to other snakes found in Raleigh, NC. for that extreme of a purist. For a hybridizer, a hybridizer on the far extreme might simply care about creating healthy beautiful specimens with easy going personalities. That kind of hybridizer might keep detailed notes about each hybrid she/he makes or she might simply cross beautiful to beautiful and mark the hybrid as hybrid without a long list of parents. What is the benefit of not listing all the parents of a hybrid? Simply put, if you come up with something remarkable, others will not be able to simply reproduce your work with little or no effort. Trust me, when I refute your comments and I point out how asinine it is to be so belittling as you are when you continue to feed comments by making comments such as, " If you were actually paying attention.... spouting irrelevant facts..." You are voicing your opinion and nothing more. I get that, but don't be condescending to others that voice their opinion. I get the facts interspersed in some of the conversations about hybrids. I also get the strong social pressure not to hybridize which I totally disagree with. We simply would not have many of the beautiful animals and plants of this world that we enjoy in our gardens and in our homes if it were not for hybridizers. There is nothing objectively wrong with hybridizing and everyone should feel free to discuss their love of hybrids as well as any rational for loving hybrids if they so choose to do so and as I have chosen to do so. Now, you can continue :twohammer or you can :twoguns: but I'd rather :cheers:

 

[Carpe Serpentis]

I understand the purists point and I understand the hybridizers point of view. Can't I simply state my opinion and back it up with facts if I so desire? That is what learning and sharing is all about. Sure, call my points irrelevant if you so desire, but realize I do agree with many others on this site. I just don't happen to agree with the popular crowd and being as new as I am I am getting even more flack for it. I get that, but really. When has stating your opinion, facts, or anything of the kind regarding hybridizing or keeping a species pure been against the free speech policy of this country? You might not like what I have to say or even that I am simply agreeing with some of the others that have voiced similar opinions, but that does not mean I am not to be granted an equal voice. If you don't like what I have to say prove me wrong, but belittling one another's point of view does little but to cause emotions to flare.

 

[Carpe Serpentis]

I did 3 hybrid projects this year.
One resulted in a single fertile egg and a mess of slugs. That baby looks like a hybrid.
The second clutch produced 12 eggs, of which all hatched, and they visually are obvious hybrids. (cremesicle stuff). With the exception of two of them.
The third hybrid clutch produced babies which, if they were unlabeled, could easily be mistaken for cornsnakes. For this reason, all of clutch #3 is kingsnake food.
I avoid acquiring/purchasing snakes when the full lineage is unknown.
A lot of "Morph ID Please" threads appear on many forum threads regularly, from persons who have acquired a new pet, and they receive responses as to what their snakes are. I avoid those for the most part. Just because it looks like such a such, does not mean it is not carrying a mule gene.
Just for kicks and giggles, I recently posted this thread.
I intentionally left out the fact that they contain cremesicle to see if anyone would call me on it.

All of clutch #3 is kingsnake food. Is that a universal practice amongst corn hybridizers? If so, I wonder what if any hybrid combinations or morphs are being missed due to failure to utilize these pure looking hybrids for further experimentation? Or is there another reason for not wanting to work with these nearly pure looking corn hybrids?