To blame the POSSIBLE non-corn snake lineage in the ultra morphs on the US government is just ridiculous. Registration is only as good as the information supplied. As a vet tech for over 29 years, I've seen more than my share of "purebred and registered" dogs and cats that were quite obvious mutts. But then again, most of the breeds the world knows today were created by mixing one breed with another to enhance certain traits to get a desired final product. I don't think ANYONE can say with any 100% certainty that ANY snake, wild or cb, is 100% "pure". The darn things DO interbreed in the wild, you know.
If you have such an issue with the purity of the snakes you own and want to sell all of your corn snakes, please do. The rest of the corn snake world will not mourn your loss.
I agree with this.
I agree with this. Even humans from one location to another interbreed in the wild from one locality to another even.
You do know that Old World Rats are jumbled too?
Its not all breeders fault that people dont know exactly where the genes come from all the snakes were eventually from a wc line and like it was stated earlier they interbreed in the wild. So unless your going to do dna testing on all your snakes I guess you will never know what they are. If this bothers you so much I think you have bigger issues in life. Have a great day
I agree with this.
I am a UK corn keeper,I have Ultramel and Ultramel combos,I have Tessera,and given half the chance and the necessary funds would snap up a Palmetto or two,I have no issues at all with any of these morphs and my stand on it is that we can only guarantee any corn to be 99.9% because as has been said already they interbreed with each other in the wild with no interference from us,so I don't see how any one could think that any corn or rat etc is 100% ,plus all my critters are 100% healthy,cool,and damn sexy so personally wouldn't change any of them.
Information ie-Breeders registering what they have and breed etc is only as good as the information submitted,and as there are alot of keepers and breeders here who aren't good on record keeping,and the fact that animals change hands many many times in their lifetime without relevant information being passed on don't see this being a workable situation,the only advice I can offer you is that if it really upsets you that much collect your ball and leave the park as there are plenty of us still here happy to play ball without you.:sobstory:
Again, I agree with this
Although corn snakes are VERY important to me this is not life and death stuff here. This is a hobby. Hobbies should be fun and relaxing. It doesn't look to me like you're having much fun. Corn snakes are awesome animals even if a few of them may have a few random hybrid genes thrown in from years past. Does it REALLY matter all that much? Even wild corns may not be "pure'.
Hey, I would like to be sure my "pure" corns are pure and my hybrids are not but you can't control everything in life. So, don't freak out about it and give up the ship just because the water might be a little murky. Enjoy your corns, care for them and LOVE them. And count yourself lucky you're one of the fortunate few to own these beautiful animals. JMO
Again, I concur.
I don't think it's a language barrier so much-I think calling a group of people 'stupid',but wanting them to see your point of view usually doesn't work out so well.
This I wholehearted agree with.
I'm a UK-based some-time breeder and I did object to being called "stupid". Nothing to do with a language or culture barrier. That was plain bad manners and a "holier than thou" attitude.
Moderators aren't allowed to voice their personal opinions? As one of those "stupid breeders", I took offense at the OP's statements and attitude, so dished it right back. Yes, I did misread a small part of the OP's post, but I guess it's not only Americans that have trouble the Queen's English. I at least use capitalization and punctuation and try to form proper sentences. But the sentiment behind my post still stands...thinking that having to register snakes with the government would help prevent hybrids from being labeled as pure is still ridiculous.
Agree. I’m starting to sound like a broken record, but I’m also trying to make a point.
stupid breeder? -.- You really are asking for it.
Totally agree with this one.
ok i shouldn't of called people stupid i'm very sorry that was out of order.
i'm just trying to get my head around the ultra thing maybe i'm the stupid one.
can a Moderator please lock my thread thank you
I agree in part, other parts are clearly debatable as the next post clearly shows.
We don't lock threads here. This isn't a censored forum.
I do apologize as I was a bit harsh yesterday. It was NOT a good day and my irritation from a situation at work spilled over onto the forum. However, IMO, if someone is that concerned about their snakes being pure, then they need to not only do their homework, but ask as many questions as possible before buying. I do not hide information. My breeding records are available to all in my personal forum, every snake I sell comes with complete ACR information for registration, and if you ask me, I will provide anyone with as much information about anything related to my snakes as I have. I will NOT, however, spoon-feed people. If you don't know the genetics of a golddust, then you really don't care about the hybrid theory surrounding it when you buy it. When I list a clutch of hatchlings as available for sale that are numbered sequentially and they go in this order: ...#24 ultramel motley het stripe, #25 ultramel anery stripe, #26 amel stripe, #27 ultramel motley het stripe, #28 amel motley het stripe, #29 ultramel stripe... you can pretty much guarantee that the amel stripe and amel motley are from a pairing with ultra in it. And as I said before, when in doubt ASK.
This I can respect. This information should be given offered to a customer regardless. They may not know enough to ask, but may wish they had it a few years down the road when they do.
Quote:
I'm sorry, but I must have missed it, but when was that actually PROVEN?
I think the comment arises from this recent discussion:
http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=120776
It was pointed out that Don S is stating absolutely on his website, that the originator of Ultras has confirmed that they were derived from non-Corns and are definitely hybrids.
As I said in that thread, I'm not aware that the originator of Ultra has ever made such a statement in public. Doesn't mean there's not been some behind-the-scenes discussion though.
I can see some underlying politics and genuine concerns here.
i don't think it has yet but how would we know some people are saying there pure and others have labeled them as gray rat crosses so my question is, i've just bread my pair of golddusts motley het anery the babys will be Gold Dust Motley, Ultra Caramel Motley, Butter Motley, Xanthic Snow Motley, Ultramel Anery Caramel Motley and Ultra Caramel Anery Motley.
so what do i sell the babys as are they corns or are they hybrids or are they possible hybrids. and if they are hybrids 2 of them dont carry the ultra gene so are they hybrids ?
someone please help because i'm at a loss and i'm kind of new to breeding this has confused me and i don't want it to confuse other new breeders
I can see the concern here and I agree it is a valid concern for those that want pure specimens. Purity is defined differently for different people however. Some would argue that a local varieity Raleigh, North Carolina found should only be breed with Raleigh, North Carolina corn otherwise it is not pure as it would never breed with a florida corn in nature. It was not a natural pairing or even a potential natural pairing.
The originator - Mike Shiver had told Don that he used a "grey snow" to start the Ultra line. Due to the admission of the original breeder to crossing rat into the line, Don has decided to label all derivatives of this line thusly. I suppose it's up to the individual if you 'want' to believe the breeder or not. I personally feel that it is mute as this point.
I can understand not wanting to tell where a hybrids genes came from for the Ultra line as that is protecting anyone else from trying to accomplish the same and stealing the hybridizers work before he/she have had time to reap the benefits of said work. I do however think that said hybrids should be labeled as hybrid or 99.99% pure… or whatever the actual percentage is if the buyer wants to know this information. Although, some hybridizers would argue that once something is breed back to an original so many times it becomes pure. Thus, stating that a hybrid animal is pure is a matter of percentages. How pure does a hybrid have to be before it is considered pure again? Some would argue never, others would beg to differ.
Wow... a guy goes fishing for a few hours and comes home to find his intelligence being insulted, being called lazy and greedy.....wow.
First let me say the reason I asked Doug to take the discussion private was it was getting a bit personal and I for one do not like reading a bunch of drama on forums. I come to this forum to catch up on the latest and greatest and relax. If things get too heated it should be handled one on one, not treated as a public spectacle.
Secondly, I am a very educated man, I went to college for 6 years and have 2 degrees, so calling me stupid is uncalled for.
Now for the lazy part.
Anyone can throw two corns together or two "pure" hondurans together or anything else "pure" and watch them breed and get eggs.
Try getting a pueblan to breed a bull snake, or a honduran to breed a corn, it's not easy and takes a lot of patience, hard work and honestly a little more intelligence than you'd think.
So now we are comparing making hybrids to selling drugs and murder? Really? Really? Get a grip.
If you want to work with pure stuff that's great go for. I worked with pure breeds for years before I made my first hybrids and the majority of my collection is still pure breeds.
I love genetics and I love snakes so naturally corns were the perfect fit for me. One year I bred a corn to a honduran and the pic in my avatar was the result, I don't care how much you hate hybrids you have to admit that is an attractive snake.
This industry is evolving, I sell my hybrids quicker and on average for better money than the pure stuff unless it's really high end. No it's not all about the money and I'm not greedy, if I were I'd be breeding ball pythons and selling one animal for 5K but I do not like ball pythons and I won't work with a species I don't care for.
People such as myself that breed reptiles (and rodents in my case) for a living have to make money from there animals in order to make a living. I don't think that's greedy or exploiting the animals.
Btw I agree with you snakearound.
I agree, making hybrids is often difficult than making straight crosses. Thus, if you don’t have the time, patience, or knowledge to create hybrids perhaps pure breeds are for you for that reason as well. Very well put together post. I am noticing a pattern though of hybridizers being belittled by the purists here.
No, it's perfectly fine to do whatever you want with whatever you want, at any time you want,........so keep on doin' whatever it was you were doin' snakepunk. Wouldn't want any "sound reasoning" to get in the way with whatever you want to do..LOL!
Ethics, or doing what might be best has nothing to do with meeting my personal approval snakepunk. Go throw some of your "sound reasoning" on someone that wouldn't know any better, huh?
BTW, can you fill me in on more of your natural history and meristic science snake knowledge?. I'm always wanting to learn as much about this as I possibly can......thanks!
Q: stupid breeders why cant you just leave things be
A: because then they would all be normal wild-types. the majority of consumers like new and improved. Like that lettuce or tomato you ate today. Or that hybrid chicken in the oven. Or your home made leather footwear. Perhaps we should junk out computers and go back to abacuses
I can agree with this and I do as it has sound backing should anyone chose to look into the history of various hybrids. Anyone ever wonder where we got blue egg chicken genes from?
~Doug
Again, some very snarky comments. Comments like, “sound reasoning” to get in the way with whatever you want to do… LOL!” Yes, these are blatant attempts to belittle hybridizers with differing opinions. Hybridizing is as much an art as it is a science. Something purists sometimes fail to grasp.
.......HAHAHA!!!! :roflmao::roflmao:
Heck, let's go ahead and legalize murder too then....people have done that since the beginning of time too. Who cares about right or wrong or any consequences there?
You might be confusing Nazism with good ethics..LOL!
~Doug
I’m sorry, but the Nazi movement was trying to keep the gene pool pure… much like the purists are arguing for. Hybridizers tend to have a much loser constraint when it comes to breeding. As for right or wrong, who made hybridizing wrong in any absolute sense? Evolution, a natural process, often works via naturally occurring hybrids. We are a part of nature as well.
Mr. Snakepunk,.....here's an "explanation" point for you. You quite obviously either didn't read any of the earlier posts I made, or no good sound reasoning matters to you anyway......which one is it?
The term "pure" is more accurate for chemicals or products, genuine, authentic, and un-tainted are all accurate terms for a wild-type snake. Don't try to give me a meristics or natural history lesson here on snakes. It doesn't appear to me we have the same opinion of what "sound reasoning" is, so there's not much use in continuing if you couldn't pick up on any of it yet.
If you think you know more about snake natural history or science than I do, then I am all ears snakepunk.
~Doug
Again more belittling is being done. There is no such thing as untainted when it comes to wild animals as the there is no true dividing line that is absolute keeping one breed of snakes from one locality from breeding with another snake from a different locality. Given enough time and generations, a corn snake from Florida could very well find that some of its genes had migrated to corn snakes in N.C. Hybridizers and breeders do tend to speed this natural process up exponentially however and for their own gains. Even if you breed a certain snake found in one region only to another snake from that same region trying to keep your gene pool untainted or pure as it were… you are going to consciously or unconsciously choose the traits you desire to magnify for your breeding efforts. Even the simple fact of changing the snakes environment alters things.
I am like Doug, we both do not eat seedless watermelons due to the fact that they were hybridized, we prefer to only eat pure bred fruits and vegetables, and when we do find out that we have ingested a suspect food, we will induce vomiting to get it out of our pure blood systems. We do not get vaccinated against the new flu viruses, only the old school ones. When we went to see Napoleon Dynamite at the theater we got up and left at mere mention of the word "Liger." When we go snake hunting for wild caught snakes we stomp on the heads of any that we even remotely suspect to be inter-grades. If we know two populations of snakes to overlap we post "no mating" signs in the area, nature ain't gonna undo what evolution created, not on our watch! We hate hybrids so much that we have plans to picket the new car companies that make cars that use both gasoline and electricity to power themselves.
We do advocate inbreeding though, we love the fact that the different breeds of dogs are so inbred that many of those breeds have so little genetic diversity that if they were wild populations they would be considered doomed to extinction by ecologists. We only want new morphs of snakes if it comes through inbreeding. How else would we see hypo lavenders come about? Sure we will out cross them once in awhile, but that's only to inbred them later on, and when we do so, it'll only be with other purely inbred snakes. They only time we do not advocate inbreeding is when we can steal from nature fresh wild caught blood. The reason why this is permissible is because it just helps reduce the risk of natural hybrids and inter-grades, one less corn that can mate a rat snake and further make more mutts among us.
Anyone that disagrees with Doug and I have no ethics whatsoever. Anyone that argues with us better not plan on breeding and contaminating our gene pool, the consequences for those that do will not be good to say the least.
I simply love this post.
Let me just settle this real quick so we can all be done with it. There's nothing wrong with keeping and breeding hybrids. Sorry it took me so long to set everyone straight-I probably could've saved you all a lot of time if I'd spoken up sooner.
Another very fine post by the above gentleman.
I am saying otherwise, I am not greedy (I loose money on breeding any of my snakes), lazy (I celan up after my hybrids, I feed them), uneducated (I know about evolution, subspecies, genes, inheritance through generations, probably even more than the average snake keeper) but I do breed some hybrids. What do you have to say about that? And of course I keep repeating my questions if they are not answered. I have a feeling you are the one who is not open to true discussion about the subject, since you do not seem to want to explain why there is a problem to begin with we should all worry about. I am not saying breeding hybrids is better than breeding pure species, I'm just saying I do not see the harm caused by it, except a change in the hobby snake population, which the majority of keepers and breeders care about way less than you do. But you do not seem to understand that there is no right or wrong, there are just several goals to choose if you start breeding snakes. As long as the goal does not endanger the health and well being of the snakes involved, there is no right or wrong.
Still no explanation why exactly I should change my mind.... except just because you think it is the only way to go.
Further, I do not think the only way to breed interesting animals is crossing an hybridization, unlike Gerard and Doug who seem to think that only breeding pure species is interesting and the only good way to exercise this hobby. I do understand that breeding pure, rare species and localities can be a purpose of your hobby, seeing the specific differences, knowing they look exactly the same as their wild cousins (at least as the pure ones in the wild, not like the natural ocuring hybdrids). I just did not choose that purpose, like you did not choose to breed hybrids. So, purists provide purists with the same goals as yours with animals, other people provide the rest.
To be honest, I started wondering meanwhile if people who are so strongly against mixing subspecies/localities in snakes, what do they think about mixing 'localities' (Asian, African, Caucasian) in people.....? I expect they will deny applying the same values to humankind, but why do they have such strong believes about animals (in a population separated from the wild) than? I have a hard time believing they just would not care about locality people being mixed up, wiping pure specimen from the earth... I am serious about that, not trying to stir the pot.
Definitely good food for thought.
Why are emotions running so high? Anyone wanting to avoid hybrids will take steps to do so, anyone wanting them will be grateful that some breeders produce 'em. Neither stance is inherently superior, it's a personal choice. Here's the smallest fish I've caught so far.............
Very well put and short. Two thumbs up!
There's nothing "natural" or "pure" about a
captive bred group of anything, snakes or something else. Raising my locality specific Okeetee corns snakes in plastic boxes on a heated bookshelf wasn't any different than my ultramel based corns. Both are captive bred animals for someones personal enjoyment. I like to go out in Nature with my camera to really enjoy "pure" stuff where they are "naturally"
I agree with Chris on this as well. Once you take the snake out of its natural habitat and introduce it to another snake of your choosing you are affecting the snakes genetics in ways that it may never have in the wild left to its own devices.
These days the whole corn hybrid debate thing just makes me laugh.
It's the same stuff I've been hearing for 30+ years. In the late '80's a well known snake breeder was breeding corn snakes to every colubrid in his collection. Emoryi, everglades rats, sinaloan milks, cal kings, gophers, red milks and bull snakes were all bred to corns before 1990. Where do you think all those genes went? Do you really believe EVERYONE that purchased those offspring only bred them to other hybrids and sold them as hybrids? Right now my local pet store is selling "corn snakes" that are to my experienced eye are obviously emoryi x corn hybrids. Folks, I really think in 2012 hybrids are in EVERYONES collection. I know there will be a lot of people here who will disagree with this...that's fine. But over the last 30 years I've seen obvious hybrids being sold as pure corns at many shows, pet stores and even specialty reptile shops that should know better.
Now, don't misunderstand me, I'm not saying all the corns in the hobby are crosses. But if you think you can guarantee someone your corns are pure you are fooling yourself....even if they came straight from the field.
As another forum member said in another hybrid thread, "Get over it".
Very well said and I think the purists should get over it as hybridizers are not going anywhere.
You were doing pretty well, but you lost me here .......
"Pure lines are often limited in their genetic material and outcrossing unrelated healthy stock is a good way to make that gene pool a little more diverse. How are you going to do this if you have a limited number of "pure" founding stock, without polluting their pureness?"
Just so the mystery to this is known, you simply go get another snake of that very same subspecies instead of a intentionally not doing that. It doesn't have to be a rare locality morph whatsoever. How about we keep it to all the stuff that ANYONE could get and breed (if they wanted to). Last time I checked, you could get a genuine cornsnake anywhere in the entire lower eastern portion of the Eastern Seaboard. We're not talking about Panda Bears or Javan Rhinos for chrissakes...LOL! We are talking about easily accessible snakes that anyone could get (if they wanted to).......key words being "wanted to". This isn't about rare zoo projects to re-populate wild stock, or a specific locale morph there was only one of either. Comparing apples to oranges is just spinning the wheels again here.
Anyway, I've been spinning mine enough here.................
An herein lies the rub, you can not take a corn snake from anywhere on the eastern coast and breed it to another corn snake from an unrelated area many hundreds of miles away and say you are not doing something that could of happened in nature. That cross just simply could not be made and more importantly would not be made if left to nature. So, either you are line breeding and inbreeding or your are going to the same location to breed the snake to a like specimen, but you see… the point of keeping it natural is really getting moot at this point as you are a far cry removed from natural already as so many have already posted.
.Here's something else a few of you obviously didn't get throughout the course of all this either because of the smart comments that were made. If NATURE produces intergrades or hybrids, it's ALL GOOD!!, and I have some wild-captured specimens myself!!(heavy gasp!!). I have some locality-specific yellow x Black rat offspring from parents captured less than 130 yards from one another (one hypo or possibly t-plus, the other parent was very typical and normal), and those are true representative of a specific locale where their ranges overlap. Now if someone produces man-made generic yellow x black rats on PURPOSE in the basement snake room, that's a different story in my opinion, because what those offspring will basically do later is potentially create confusion and dilute both subspecies that are in the hobby that they are comprised of sometime down the road.....that would only be realistic to figure.
~Doug
Your yellow x Black rat offspring found in the wild is a perfect example. If left in the wild it will pollute the wild gene pool. Guess what, that has been happening since there was more than two cells competing for life on this planet we call earth.
If you and fellow purists keep providing people the opportunity to buy snakes from you that are what they are, you do not have to be worried about the future. Many people are ok with a certain uncertainty when it comes to the genes of their animals, they won't worry with you about that. I know that is exactly the problem you see, but you seem not able to grasp that exactly because of that, it IS NOT a problem, it is YOUR opinion that it is a problem. What if I'd think that keeping a dog in your house as a pet is a bad thing to do, they should live outside in a yard and gaurd the house only? And people who do so are bad and egoistic? And it is a real problem because there won't be any guarding dog breeds anymore in the future? I'd have to explain why that would be a problem I think. Because if hardly anyone wants a guarding dog, there is no problem if there are none available. Same goes for the seedless watermelons. What is the problem if the market would mainly exist of those?
Maybe, if you had not called hybrid breeders lazy, uneducated and greedy, people would be willing to listen to you a bit more. The fact that you did makes us think that you think you are holier than thou. Weird, ain't it? Talking about 'good' and 'right' in reference to what you think and what others think, added to the idea that you think you are holier than thou. Weird, ain't it? As long as you cannot explain why your opinion is indeed the only right one, yet keep on talking hybrid breeders down, and keep on saying that hybrids should not be brought on the market at all, people will start thinking your opinion on this is just a principle you cannot even rationally explain. That leads to suggestions about race wars and such.
I agree, insulting someone else’s intelligence is not the best way to go about persuading them your opinion is correct. It is at the end of the day, only your opinion however and it is subjective. Hybridizing is an art and a science and it is affected by the laws of supply and demand. You supply crap, there will be no demand.
Really, you haven't heard anything? It's not about breeding natural or hybrids. It is about not losing species that can't be replaced. I forgot this is a CORN forum. They are not at risk, you can just go outside and find one if you want a natural corn. Other species that are not from the USA and can no longer be imported are the ones threatened by hybridizing. It will really suck when my kids want a certain species one day and its not available anymore. All because some people said it doesn't matter. What's wrong with not wanting that?
Occipitolineata
This is perhaps the best post written yet to voice an opinion on hybrids, albeit, as he states… corns are not an issue. It’s the species that we can’t replace… i.e. species that are going extinct. The preservation of species is another matter altogether. Animals go extinct and new animals replace them. This is called evolution. Would I love to have a pet T-rex? I’ll leave that one unanswered.
Here is today's work in the snake building.
Hey Doug, I'll make you a great deal on a pair of Mexi-Cal Brooks het Brooks white-sided and Cal-king albino or a pair of Knoblochorns het Corn snow stripe!
I agree with some of your points Gerards, pure species should be preserved for future generations but not a the expense of other's rights to breed what they want.
I would tweak this a little and say that perhaps when a snake is no longer fit to survive in its environment or is in danger of going extinct through natural means it is better to have that snakes legacy go on in the form of a hybrid than to have its dna lost forever. Again, I understand that is merely my opinion. Others might see the hybrid as a valuable means of breeding the last few remaining specimens to that hybrid in hopes of getting a population large enough to support itself. But really, who’s responsibility is it to keep all species alive perpetually alive? If no animal ever went extinct we would live in a very over crowded world indeed.
Doug, "freezer fodder"? So you would throw a perfectly healthy snake into the freezer to freeze to death? Man I wouldn't want to be a snake in your collection.
Gerards, I really like the looks of those brooks. I'd be interested in a pair if you intend to breed them. (I won't make hybrids out of them, I promise.)
More pics for the pro-hybrid crowds viewing pleasure:
Ryan Beatty, you have some beautiful awe inspiring hybrids.
Actually, those make me cringe and say to myself "there are 2 nice species ruined now"...but intellectually I know they are a million times preferable to those cremesicle/rootbeer, looks like a corn but isn't kind of things....
This fellow, along with his earlier comments of this makes me gag in reference to hybrids…. Well he is showing an emotional response if that is true and emotional responses are often times not based on any sound logic. Hybrids are simply hybrids enjoy them or don’t.
There really is no way of knowing if something has a hybrid ancestor unless it obviously sticks out like a sore thumb.
A perfect example is the thayeri x ruthveni crosses, even the F'1s can look almost identical to the pure thayeri. After a couple breedings back to thayeri, other than the fact that they are expressing the amel gene from the ruthveni, you would never know it wasn't a pure thayeri.
I agree that's what's so dangerous to the other pure species out there but you just can't police everyone.
That's why I do everything I can to prevent my hybrids from being passed as anything other than that.........a hybrid.
More pics:
Again, with the beautiful hybrids. What is with the extreme paranoia over snake hybrids. Can you imagine if the rest of the world shared that paranoia when it came to horses, zebra, dogs, coyotes, cats, birds, flowers, etc….
