crotalis40741
Nanci said put sexy bangs
I too would suggest you try again in a thread of its own. I don't remember the thread you are talking about but I don't see as being hereditary.
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stupid breeders why cant you just leave things be
- Thread starter asnakecalled?
- Start date
screamindemon17
New member
I will try again .... He eats as much as my girls who r younger but 2 times longer and heaveir
DMong
colubrid connoisseur
I don't recommend that most people treat snakes themselves unless they are very experienced, but if I owned it, I would dose it with Flagyl (Metronidazole) and Panacur (Fenbendazole).
The Flagyl is an intestinal antibiotic that treats bacterial pathogens and the Panacur is a wormer that treats several types of intestinal parasitic worms. Both can work absolute wonders when used for snakes that have been diagnosed with these problems. They are both reptile friendly unless gone way over the recommended dosages. They can be given at the same time too.
I have researched LOTS of different recommended dosages in the past, and it was pretty confusing, but I found that 25 to 50 mg/per kg is the most consistent and widely accepted safe dose for most colubrid snakes, and it has been said that tricolors, Indigos, and some Crotalids shouldn't be dosed over 40-50 mg/kg.
one source states....
Metronidazole (Flagyl) Used on intestinal flagellates and for amoebiasis at a dose of 25-50 mg/kg orally, then again in 10-14 days in colubrid snakes since there have been some problems with the higher doses in some species. during the entire time of treatment they SHOULD NOT be fed at all until at least 10-14 days AFTER the last treatment, and then very SMALL meals should be given for several feedings to make sure all is well and it's gut has replenished the acids, enzymes, electrolytes, and good flora (bacteria) that it lost and also the "good" bacteria that gets killed with the medication. This is VERY important to keep in mind. There are reports that Flagyl also works as an appetite stimulant in reptiles.
In the book "Understanding Reptile Parasites" by Dr. Klingenberg recommends this dose and cites Dr. Funk in specifically saying:
"Do not exceed 40mg/kg in tricolor snakes, indigos or Uracpam rattlers."
it is very effective on....
Entamoeba invadens
Trichomonas
Balantidium
Rhizopoda
Flagellates
Ciliates
Anyway, my reasoning is, out of all the different dosages I have ever researched, the most common dose I consistently come across seems to be 25-50 mg/kg of body weight for snakes. So given that other doses can be substantially higher, I tend to think the slightly higher-end dose of the most commonly accepted dose of 25 -50 mg/kg for colubrids is probably a very safe effective bet.
I have used this very same dose (higher dosae at 50mg/kg of body weight personally a few times over the years, and it worked like absolute MAGIC!. I have posted this to other people in the past many times too, and I have had people email me back later on saying their once very thin CONSTANTLY regurgitating snake that was literally on deaths front door prior to following my recommendations for the dosing and administration technique to the the very letter was absolutely thriving again after some Flagyl administration. When the person contacted me again out of the blue a couple months later, his earlier almost dead snake was now three times the body weight it was a while ago, and was now chowing down huge rat pups like no tomorrow..LOL!
Also, a few years ago, I had a subadult 300 gram Anery Hondo that I produced from the egg, all of the sudden started regurging out of nowhere, even when given VERY small meals. It wasn't even holding these down, so I immediately knew right then that it was time to break-out the "big guns" and administer some Flagyl at the rate of about 50 mg/kg. I did this and waited for about 12 or so days, and it held down every meal ever since and ate like an absolute glutton. The snake is now a huge proven breeder several times over now..
I have used it since then on a couple animals I acquired from other people at the rate of 50 mg/kg, and those snakes did fantastic afterwards for me too.
Fouled water is a very common culprit of this if they should accidentally ingest some before you notice and change it out.
It comes in pill and liquid form. If you get Flagyl in 250 mg. pill form, the dose for a 300 gram snake is 1/16th of the pill, so you have to do your best at judging what 1/16th would be, but I really don't think a bit one way or the other is going to have any adverse affects given the fact that it is pretty reptile tollerant if not gone way overboard on. Using a very accurate scale that measures tiny amounts such as a jeweler’s scale would make it very easy and very accurate.
Panacur (Fenbendazole) is given at the rate of 50-100 mg/kg of body weight once, and then again in 10-14 days.
~Doug
screamindemon17
New member
dmong thank you sooooo much . i will try and keep you popsted on him and again thank you
Carpe Serpentis
Hybrid Snake Lover
:bang:Taxonomic reclassification is an ongoing process, and different sources often disagree, granting full species status to a group of these snakes that another source considers a subspecies. In the case of Lampropeltis catalinensis, for example, only a single specimen exists, so classification is not necessarily finite. In addition, hybridization between species with overlapping geographic ranges is not uncommon, confusing taxonomists further. Kind of like what happens when someone from France marries a Belgian, American (Native American), Australian (Aborigine)... different mixes of physical traits ensues. Yes, all Homo sapiens have been are lumped into the same species and we can all interbreed with one another. There are some that would argue that certain groups of humans should not interbreed. I’m not a splitter. I’m a lumper. I’m a lover. I don't mind that my ancestors hybridized with Homo neanderthalensis. :flames:Whether we choose to include a animal as its own species, subspecies, or even confer upon it a new genus title does change. In short, I hybridize because I like to, but it can be argued that hybrids occur in nature and in the snake world in particular as geographic ranges do overlap and a quick google search will return abundant examples of naturally occurring hybrids thus muddying our view of what is a pure species, locality, etc.
Generally speaking, organisms sharing a common ancestor are closely related and are therefore classified into the same categories. The first step upon discovering an unknown organism, or a potentially new species, is to find a common anatomical feature that appears to perform the same function as those found on a different species. This is how humans attempt to classify life. Snakes and humans share a common ancestor with members of the Chordata family.
Kingsnakes, milksnakes, cornsnakes share 36 chromosomes. The closer the chromosome count and the more recent a shared ancestor the easer it is for a fertile offspring to result. Evolution is an ongoing process. Humans are a part of that process whether by direct or indirect interaction with that environment. I simply choose to be a more direct participant in that role for my personal enjoyment of hybrids. If you enjoy domesticated food, dogs, cats… you are enjoying the labors of hybridizers/breeders who are developing or shaping the evolution of a particular species or species in ways that would never have occurred in nature if it were not for our human intervention. If you enjoy any organism that has been selectively breed by man you have enjoyed the fruits of a hybridizer. To me, it is hypocritical to want or support the joys of hybridizing, line breeding, or selective breeding in any form and think that this is not something we have enjoyed as Homo sapiens. Turkeys so large they can not fly and can not mate in the wild and so much more of our food, dog breeds, etc. are the result of selective breeding. We are constantly evolving as is all life and we cannot deny our role in that evolutionary process. Walking around thinking that we are not doing changing how an animal evolves by selectively breeding or line-breeding an animal is like walking around with blinders on our eyes if you ask for my personal opinion. How an organism evolves under the care of the farmer, pet breeder, pet keeper, etc. will always be different than how that animal would evolve if it were simply left in nature. So, my personal thoughts on the matter are that if you are going to embrace our ability to alter an organisms phenotype from what would occur in nature that you are honest with yourselves in that endeavor and realize that it is only a matter of degree and time taken to create some novel phenotype that would never occur in nature occurs when you line-breed, hybridize, or otherwise take an animal out of its natural habitat and attempt to breed it. Either you are for these changes that may make an animal not as fit for its natural environment and you keep animals of wild origin or you are not and you don’t keep animals of wild origin. Regardless of all of these thoughts, if the intention is never to release these animals back into the wild… there is no real concern that can be justified for not hybridizing or line-breeding animals to create phenotypes that would never occur in nature. Again, my opinion.
Should we attempt to keep animals from going extinct? There have been several mass extinction level events in the worlds history and if every species was saved that ever existed this world would be very crowded and there would not be room for the new species that are being born and created. Will we even exist in the same form 160,000 years from now as we did when we first evolved into Homo sapiens some 160,000 years ago or will we go the same route of Homo neanderthalensis, Homo florensis, Homo erectus, and Homo ergastor? All of these other homo species had the use of fire, tools, etc and existed before us… but none of them survived in the natural environment. How many of our precious hybrid or line-bred domestic animals, flowers, etc. will survive once they are released from our care should we go extinct ourselves? Will the turkeys that we have line-bred to the point that they can not breed by themselves go extinct if we go extinct?:shrugs:
I think the answer is simple, what can continue to evolve will continue to evolve as long as life as we know it is possible on this planet. The simple act of us existing alters the evolutionary path of other animals and plants as we are all interdependent.
Generally speaking, organisms sharing a common ancestor are closely related and are therefore classified into the same categories. The first step upon discovering an unknown organism, or a potentially new species, is to find a common anatomical feature that appears to perform the same function as those found on a different species. This is how humans attempt to classify life. Snakes and humans share a common ancestor with members of the Chordata family.
Kingsnakes, milksnakes, cornsnakes share 36 chromosomes. The closer the chromosome count and the more recent a shared ancestor the easer it is for a fertile offspring to result. Evolution is an ongoing process. Humans are a part of that process whether by direct or indirect interaction with that environment. I simply choose to be a more direct participant in that role for my personal enjoyment of hybrids. If you enjoy domesticated food, dogs, cats… you are enjoying the labors of hybridizers/breeders who are developing or shaping the evolution of a particular species or species in ways that would never have occurred in nature if it were not for our human intervention. If you enjoy any organism that has been selectively breed by man you have enjoyed the fruits of a hybridizer. To me, it is hypocritical to want or support the joys of hybridizing, line breeding, or selective breeding in any form and think that this is not something we have enjoyed as Homo sapiens. Turkeys so large they can not fly and can not mate in the wild and so much more of our food, dog breeds, etc. are the result of selective breeding. We are constantly evolving as is all life and we cannot deny our role in that evolutionary process. Walking around thinking that we are not doing changing how an animal evolves by selectively breeding or line-breeding an animal is like walking around with blinders on our eyes if you ask for my personal opinion. How an organism evolves under the care of the farmer, pet breeder, pet keeper, etc. will always be different than how that animal would evolve if it were simply left in nature. So, my personal thoughts on the matter are that if you are going to embrace our ability to alter an organisms phenotype from what would occur in nature that you are honest with yourselves in that endeavor and realize that it is only a matter of degree and time taken to create some novel phenotype that would never occur in nature occurs when you line-breed, hybridize, or otherwise take an animal out of its natural habitat and attempt to breed it. Either you are for these changes that may make an animal not as fit for its natural environment and you keep animals of wild origin or you are not and you don’t keep animals of wild origin. Regardless of all of these thoughts, if the intention is never to release these animals back into the wild… there is no real concern that can be justified for not hybridizing or line-breeding animals to create phenotypes that would never occur in nature. Again, my opinion.
Should we attempt to keep animals from going extinct? There have been several mass extinction level events in the worlds history and if every species was saved that ever existed this world would be very crowded and there would not be room for the new species that are being born and created. Will we even exist in the same form 160,000 years from now as we did when we first evolved into Homo sapiens some 160,000 years ago or will we go the same route of Homo neanderthalensis, Homo florensis, Homo erectus, and Homo ergastor? All of these other homo species had the use of fire, tools, etc and existed before us… but none of them survived in the natural environment. How many of our precious hybrid or line-bred domestic animals, flowers, etc. will survive once they are released from our care should we go extinct ourselves? Will the turkeys that we have line-bred to the point that they can not breed by themselves go extinct if we go extinct?:shrugs:
I think the answer is simple, what can continue to evolve will continue to evolve as long as life as we know it is possible on this planet. The simple act of us existing alters the evolutionary path of other animals and plants as we are all interdependent.
DMong
colubrid connoisseur
If only all that had anything to do with people haphazardly and "willy-nilly" crossing things that make such a large majority of snakes in the hobby mainstream idistinguishable and muddied-up for OTHERS down the line, it might be relavant to the issue here. You are only trying to "pseudo-justify" creating all these indistinguishable mutt snakes because that is your agenda that you are promoting. Also, there is no doubt in my mind that the so-called "Isla Santa Catalina" Kingsnake (L.g.catalinensis) was completely bogus anyway. Either Van Denburgh & Slevin were blowing smoke about even finding it there on the tiny island in 1921, or the single specimen WAS found there by them, but got there somehow by flotsom or some other means. Whatever the case is, it's nothing more than an interesting looking aberrant L.g.splendida. :laugh:
All those other examples you are coming up with won't screw up others stock. What does evolution have to do with tossing in a corn with a thayeri x Cal. king x Hondo x campbelli??, or even a Cal. king x Florida king that gets sold as an "axanthic" floridana?
It's fine if you want an entire lawn full of weeds, but when you go to all the neighbors yards and dig their nice grass and flowers up and plant your crappy weeds in and litter their yards with junk, then you are negatively effecting many others, and THAT is where the problem lies. The bogus counterfeit, indistinguisheabe, and misidentified stuff gets absolutely EVERYWHERE. You obviously don't see the correlation there because you are too busy trying to pseudo-justify that nothing really matters and every snake is just a snake no matter what kind it is, when that simply just ISN'T the case at all. Nothing wrong with countless neat morphs either, as long as they aren't produced from the bogus introduction of some other completely different type made out to be something they are NOT, but that isn't the case either!!. I think you have way more studying to do my friend. You being a "lumper", not a "splitter" is the understatement of the century dude. If you had your way they would ALL be one big "lump" of nothing. :laugh:
Carpe Serpentis
Hybrid Snake Lover
You make me smile now and that is a good thing. I don't propose that trying to pass a known hybrid off as a locally derived wild specimen is a good thing. I do propose however that once you take a species or whatever you wish to label your snake from its natural environment and begin to selectively breed it that you may very well be breeding that snake and selecting for what you want and not for what nature and natural selection would have done. You have effectively become an larger influencing factor in the snakes evolution than you would be if you simply walked past the snake in the wild. I think you could probably agree with that statement.
As for your weed comments, I would only ask... when does a weed go from weed status to flower status? Perhaps after that weed is selectively breed or hybridized it becomes the jewel we see today. Wild type roses, tulips, etc... are not the same as what you see before you in the grocery stores. Genetic drift, mutation, migration, and natural selection are basic components of evolution. What you have done by taking a snake out of its natural environment and breeding it is to effectively take out the natural selection component of evolution and replace it with the selective pressures of the breeder/hybridizer.
As for your weed comments, I would only ask... when does a weed go from weed status to flower status? Perhaps after that weed is selectively breed or hybridized it becomes the jewel we see today. Wild type roses, tulips, etc... are not the same as what you see before you in the grocery stores. Genetic drift, mutation, migration, and natural selection are basic components of evolution. What you have done by taking a snake out of its natural environment and breeding it is to effectively take out the natural selection component of evolution and replace it with the selective pressures of the breeder/hybridizer.
Carpe Serpentis
Hybrid Snake Lover
Which in a nut shell means, once you start breeding snakes... it becomes unnatural.
Carpe Serpentis
Hybrid Snake Lover
When you take an animal out of its natural habitat and breed them you have created an artificial bottleneck. Population bottlenecks occur when a population's size is reduced for at least one generation. Genetic drift acts faster in a bottleneck. Genetic drift reduces variation in small populations faster. Reduced genetic variation means that the new population of corn snakes you are producing may not be as adaptable to their natural environment.
Founder effects occur when a new colony is produced or started by a few members of an original population... something else that we can clearly argues happens once we bring animals out of their natural habitat and attempt to breed them. Again, we are looking at reduced genetic variation from the original population here and we must also confess that the sample of genetic material (snake from said locality) is a non-random sample of the genes in a typical population of that area. Simply put, you are meddling with nature once you take an animal or plant out of its original setting or environment and introduce it into a different environment (lab, house, etc.) You are meddling with the natural course of that snakes evolution. Hybridizers don't pretend that we aren't meddling with these things. We do them intentionally and quite often we create more weeds, but once in a while something spectacular comes along. Even rarer, someone takes that spectacular creation and line-breeds it to create a stable something spectacular.
Founder effects occur when a new colony is produced or started by a few members of an original population... something else that we can clearly argues happens once we bring animals out of their natural habitat and attempt to breed them. Again, we are looking at reduced genetic variation from the original population here and we must also confess that the sample of genetic material (snake from said locality) is a non-random sample of the genes in a typical population of that area. Simply put, you are meddling with nature once you take an animal or plant out of its original setting or environment and introduce it into a different environment (lab, house, etc.) You are meddling with the natural course of that snakes evolution. Hybridizers don't pretend that we aren't meddling with these things. We do them intentionally and quite often we create more weeds, but once in a while something spectacular comes along. Even rarer, someone takes that spectacular creation and line-breeds it to create a stable something spectacular.
DMong
colubrid connoisseur
:laugh01: :laugh01:
yes, that is the same ol' typical hybridizer pseudo-justification nonsense I always here.......it's just plain sad is what it is.
Wo said any captive-breeding is "natural"???, I sure didn't, and never will!. The POINT is that the species or subspecies doesn't change and they are still the same TYPE of snake they were to begin with, NOT some abomination someone dreamed up and threw together so people don't know what it is even supposed to BE anymore!!..........CAPICHE!????...............no, OF COURSE not!.... :shrugs: :shrugs: :shrugs:
Anyway, continue on with all of your multi-posts trying to convince me and everyone else that nothing matters because there isn't any reason to keep captive-bred snakes bred to their same like species and subspecies. And continue on with the "do whatever turns you on" mind-set that fits your twisted agenda best, because you and all the others that think as you do will do just that anyway.. I might as well be trying to make good sense to a rock or brick wall. I'm done with going around in silly circles with you about this. I've got way better things to do with my time than to completely waste it typing out posts only to roll my eyes at the ridiculous replies you keep coming back with.
Have fun adding all the worthless weeds and garbage to what's left of the snake hobby's nicely manacured lawns. All I can say is that I hope you have better judgement and common sense in real battle situations than you do snake breeding (doubtful).
:headbang: :headbang:
DMong
colubrid connoisseur
just a thought,.......it would be great if you could use all that inquisitiveness and "Frankenstein" experimenting mind-set for something beneficial and spend your free time mixing chemicals and compounds instead of animals. Then you could simply dump the useless stuff in the garbage and not into the hobby mainstream.
~Doug
~Doug
Carpe Serpentis
Hybrid Snake Lover
If there is a market for hybrids in the hobby mainstream then I don't think that you can call hybrids useless as they are fulfilling the role that they have been bred to fill. If every hybrid or cross that was once termed a mutt, but is now considered a breed received similar negative feedback from the purists of those breeds or species that were used to create that something new I shudder to think of how many may have been put off from breeding anything new. In the end, it is the collective (people that engage in the hobby of snakes) that determines what they like and what they will purchase and whom they will purchase from.
A selectively breed turkey that can no longer breed on its own because it is too large do so is something that breeders have done. Its not natural. The conditions that favored such a creation would never happen in the wild as they required mans intervention. Anytime you breed a plant or animal you are intervening with that plant or animals evolution in a way that very likely would not have happened in nature. You are dealing with the founders effect of a small population when you bring those animals out of the wild and a bottleneck occurs and only those genes from a very tiny pool or sampling that the breeder selects for consciously or unconsciously are dealt with for each succeeding generation. Simply put, you are no longer dealing with natural selection in a natural environment when you take any species out of its natural habitat. You are dealing with selection that is determined by man when you take any wild specimen and breed it to another wild specimen or otherwise. You are dealing with an unnatural environment created by man. All of these factors influence the genetics, phenotype, and thus the evolution of whatever species/locality etc. that you are working with. Hybridizers understand this well. :blowup:
Kokopelli
Resident Boa Fanatic
Er... people are acting as though there's some cosmic law dictating species classification... kind of forgetting that it is a human system of definition, which is also not without flaws.
Species classifications change all the time, and the fact that species that are not closely related still manage to produce viable young means that we make mistakes when we classify and define species and their relation to one another.
Being a purist in the hobby is such a heap of... well... bollocks. People started breeding snakes WAY before the notion of locality of species took root... for all we know, nothing in the hobby is pure...so... all sides should face the reality rather than jumping on a high horse.
These snakes are not meant to return to the wild... even in the wild integrates and so forth occur naturally... fact is, we know way less than we presume to.
Want to be a purist? by all means... go and collect animals from the wild... that's the best way to -preserve- natural value, by removing them from their natural habitat in order to serve some quasi-moral notion.
You're lucky enough to have offspring from WC stock? GREAT, preserve that and stop criticizing people who were less fortunate... people don't need to receive permission from anyone in order to breed their animals. That doesn't mean that EVERYONE should breed whatever they have at the moment(I really disslike that approach), but they are entitled to do so if they choose to.
Species classifications change all the time, and the fact that species that are not closely related still manage to produce viable young means that we make mistakes when we classify and define species and their relation to one another.
Being a purist in the hobby is such a heap of... well... bollocks. People started breeding snakes WAY before the notion of locality of species took root... for all we know, nothing in the hobby is pure...so... all sides should face the reality rather than jumping on a high horse.
These snakes are not meant to return to the wild... even in the wild integrates and so forth occur naturally... fact is, we know way less than we presume to.
Want to be a purist? by all means... go and collect animals from the wild... that's the best way to -preserve- natural value, by removing them from their natural habitat in order to serve some quasi-moral notion.
You're lucky enough to have offspring from WC stock? GREAT, preserve that and stop criticizing people who were less fortunate... people don't need to receive permission from anyone in order to breed their animals. That doesn't mean that EVERYONE should breed whatever they have at the moment(I really disslike that approach), but they are entitled to do so if they choose to.
Carpe Serpentis
Hybrid Snake Lover
I understand your sentiments Kokopelli where it concerns not wanting to breed just whatever you have at the moment. Ideally, that might go for anyone who wants to selectively breed and or hybridize snakes. Garbage in generally equals garbage out.
starsevol
Cohabbing is cruelty...
Doug, I love you! Marry me!! (ok ok so I am already happily married but we will find a wayyyyyy)
gsdbecca
New member
A weed is any unwanted plant in your garden. Same plant in different gardens could be a labeled as a weed or not a weed. Thus, I'd say it's a good analogy for this discussion.
Gardener out!
DMong
colubrid connoisseur
Doug, I love you! Marry me!! (ok ok so I am already happily married but we will find a wayyyyyy)
LOL!!,.....Yes, Beth, I knew you would easily see the good logic and common sense there.
ps,......I'm sure you also found his "Garbage in generally equals garbage out" comment just as bewildering as I did. Coming from him, it just couldn't BE any more ironic and twisted because "garbage in, garbage out is precisely what he is endorsing and promoting. :awcrap:
It makes one have to wonder what his idea of "garbage" is???......I guess it would be a snake you could identify simply by looking at it. :headbang:
Carpe Serpentis
Hybrid Snake Lover
Dmong, your comment that I am promoting garbage is an emotional comment and not one based on fact. The fact is, what one man considers a weed another considers a beautiful flower or even a food source. Take the dandelion for instance. Many consider it a weed, but it is edible. But, I am giving this sentiment of yours too much weight. It is subjective and to pretend it is anything other is simple fantasy. Denigrating hybridizers or the idea of hybridizing simply doesn't make your point valid or substantial in any way. At least in any good logic or common sense sort of way.:roflmao:
As for your idea of keeping pure specimens from on local or another, I'm not arguing that you can't try and do that. Perhaps the problem is not that hybridizers hybridize, but that those that would like to keep their "pure sample" pure don't in fact research and ensure they do in fact do so? Not that I really believe that is possible. Intergrades occur in nature and the genetic drift from one species to another does happen in nature as well as by hybridizing efforts.
Intergradation is the mixing of two distinct populations and that mixing often results in a body of genetic and phenotype differences around a distinct zone or belt of hybridizing where the two groups interact.
All of this is really moot though if one considers that what defines a species is man. The definition of a species being a group or population that can breed and produce fertile offspring.... i.e. they can breed freely with each other and produce viable offspring. When two individual populations evolve away from each other through genetic drift or some other mechanism to the point where they can no longer breed with each other they become their own species. Speciation is the evolutionary process by which new species arise. Speciation my be induced artificially, through animal husbandry (selective breeding and yes hybridizing).
So, let us discuss how a speciation. There are four types of speciation: allopatric, peripatric, parapatric, sympatric, and artificial.
Allopatric speciation (our first type) occurs when a species is separated into two groups separated by a geographical barrier ( an ex. of artificially produced barrier--your home). This barrier makes it impossible for the two populations to breed together. The genotypes of each population evolve separately. Different environmental pressures, mutations, natural selection, etc. over time and the inability to breed with both populations may result in two separate species. Can your pure specimens breed with the population at large from whence it came?
Peripatric speciation occurs when a small sampling of the genetic pool that may not be indicative of the entire pool becomes separated by a physical barrier or barriers. This barrier makes it impossible for the two populations to breed together resulting a phenomenon called the founders effect. A unique genotype different from the original population in that there is less genetic diversity is established. Is there less genetic diversity in your small collection than you would find in the wild?
Parapatric speciation occurs when their is a difference in environmental pressures over a large geographic area of which members of a population are spread. There is no physical barrier, just environmental differences that promote different genotypes with the end result being a new species. Are there different environmental pressures in your home where you preserve and breed your pure specimens? Long distances make it impractical to travel to reproduce with other members of the same species. Do long distances impair your pure snake from breeding with other members of its local? Is there a potential founders effect present?
Sympatric speciation occurs when some members of a group become dependent or evolve to like a different aspect of the same environment, food source, etc. Are your snakes feed the same as wild snakes? Is the environment different?
Artificial speciation is the creation of new species by people through animal husbandry, hybridizing, etc. Food for thought. :devil01:
As for your idea of keeping pure specimens from on local or another, I'm not arguing that you can't try and do that. Perhaps the problem is not that hybridizers hybridize, but that those that would like to keep their "pure sample" pure don't in fact research and ensure they do in fact do so? Not that I really believe that is possible. Intergrades occur in nature and the genetic drift from one species to another does happen in nature as well as by hybridizing efforts.
Intergradation is the mixing of two distinct populations and that mixing often results in a body of genetic and phenotype differences around a distinct zone or belt of hybridizing where the two groups interact.
All of this is really moot though if one considers that what defines a species is man. The definition of a species being a group or population that can breed and produce fertile offspring.... i.e. they can breed freely with each other and produce viable offspring. When two individual populations evolve away from each other through genetic drift or some other mechanism to the point where they can no longer breed with each other they become their own species. Speciation is the evolutionary process by which new species arise. Speciation my be induced artificially, through animal husbandry (selective breeding and yes hybridizing).
So, let us discuss how a speciation. There are four types of speciation: allopatric, peripatric, parapatric, sympatric, and artificial.
Allopatric speciation (our first type) occurs when a species is separated into two groups separated by a geographical barrier ( an ex. of artificially produced barrier--your home). This barrier makes it impossible for the two populations to breed together. The genotypes of each population evolve separately. Different environmental pressures, mutations, natural selection, etc. over time and the inability to breed with both populations may result in two separate species. Can your pure specimens breed with the population at large from whence it came?
Peripatric speciation occurs when a small sampling of the genetic pool that may not be indicative of the entire pool becomes separated by a physical barrier or barriers. This barrier makes it impossible for the two populations to breed together resulting a phenomenon called the founders effect. A unique genotype different from the original population in that there is less genetic diversity is established. Is there less genetic diversity in your small collection than you would find in the wild?
Parapatric speciation occurs when their is a difference in environmental pressures over a large geographic area of which members of a population are spread. There is no physical barrier, just environmental differences that promote different genotypes with the end result being a new species. Are there different environmental pressures in your home where you preserve and breed your pure specimens? Long distances make it impractical to travel to reproduce with other members of the same species. Do long distances impair your pure snake from breeding with other members of its local? Is there a potential founders effect present?
Sympatric speciation occurs when some members of a group become dependent or evolve to like a different aspect of the same environment, food source, etc. Are your snakes feed the same as wild snakes? Is the environment different?
Artificial speciation is the creation of new species by people through animal husbandry, hybridizing, etc. Food for thought. :devil01:
DMong
colubrid connoisseur
Thanks for the biology lesson there. It's too bad you won't apply this same knowledge in lowering the huge numbers of unidentifiable, mislabeled and bogus counterfeit stuff out there in the hobby instead of producing and promoting much, much more. :awcrap:
"All of this is really moot though if one considers that what defines a species is man"
BTW, most actually "define" themselves as their own uniquely distinct entities over countless years of evolving into what they are today. Man merely describes them and the notable differences that set them apart from each other. At least when I breed things and sell someone a snake, it is still the same type it was before I started and can be distinguished as a specific type of snake. That's the big difference between caring and careless.