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stupid breeders why cant you just leave things be

DMong said:
Thanks for the biology lesson there. It's too bad you won't apply this same knowledge in lowering the huge numbers of unidentifiable, mislabeled and bogus counterfeit stuff out there in the hobby instead of producing and promoting much, much more. :awcrap:

"All of this is really moot though if one considers that what defines a species is man"

BTW, most actually "define" themselves as their own uniquely distinct entities over countless years of evolving into what they are today. Man merely describes them and the notable differences that set them apart from each other. At least when I breed things and sell someone a snake, it is still the same type it was before I started and can be distinguished as a specific type of snake. That's the big difference between caring and careless.
Click to expand...

Bogus and counterfeit stuff.... Bogus as in not genuine and counterfeit as in passing off something not genuine for something else could be considered a valid concern, but that is not something an ethical hybridizer does. An ethical hybridizer/breeder will not sell you a corn snake found in Raleigh, N.C. if it was merely bred in Raleigh, N.C. from corns found in Raleigh and Wendell. An ethical hybridizer/breeder will tell you that it is a corn snake and the parents originated from Raleigh (male) and Wendell (female). If they have failed to keep such records they will simply tell you that as well as perhaps the purpose of the hybridizer is to simply select the best color, pattern, etc. and no real concerns or data are kept on the original locals or types? Is this your definition of what is ethical and what is not?
Do most breeders keep detailed records of exactly which local each snake was from? So that the lineage of each corn snake can be traced back to the wild from each and every mating? If such records are kept by breeders then I don't know how a bogus or counterfeit snake could enter into your collection. I think we have solved your problem. Those that would like to keep local specific snakes should track each mating and the origin of each snake used in that mating. A basic pedigree chart should be sold with each snake. Do you provide a pedigree chart that traces each and every snake back to its wild caught origins? If so, I think your problem is solved. You have no worries from any hybridizer unless hybridizers are falsifying such pedigree charts which is a completely different story altogether. Regardless, lets not put the blame on a lack of organization of some of the purists onto the hybridizers. If purity is your goal... keep track of it and maintain it, but stop blaming the hybridizers for not helping you with your goal or your pedigree charts.
 
:santa:A species is defined as a group or population that can interbreed to produce fertile offspring. This is why Homo sapiens are grouped into one species despite the fact that we have different skin colors similar to how some snakes have different skin colors. Its not the wrapper that makes us who we are. Food for thought.
Still, I feel your main grind is not actually with hybridizers. It is with other purists who fail to keep accurate pedigree charts tracing the lineage of each and every cross back to the same local specific group of similar looking organisms. I'd suggest not buying your snakes from purists that fail to meet those standards of yours or else realize that some unknowns will inevitably creep into your own breeding programs. If your beef is still with the hybridizers... I would have to question why are you and other purists getting your snakes from hybridizers that are not keeping accurate records of lineages (pedigree charts) and if your not getting snakes from them... then you can continue with your projects unhindered as can the hybridizers.:cool:
 
Carpe Serpentis said:
:santa:A species is defined as a group or population that can interbreed to produce fertile offspring. This is why Homo sapiens are grouped into one species despite the fact that we have different skin colors similar to how some snakes have different skin colors. Its not the wrapper that makes us who we are. Food for thought.
Still, I feel your main grind is not actually with hybridizers. It is with other purists who fail to keep accurate pedigree charts tracing the lineage of each and every cross back to the same local specific group of similar looking organisms. I'd suggest not buying your snakes from purists that fail to meet those standards of yours or else realize that some unknowns will inevitably creep into your own breeding programs. If your beef is still with the hybridizers... I would have to question why are you and other purists getting your snakes from hybridizers that are not keeping accurate records of lineages (pedigree charts) and if your not getting snakes from them... then you can continue with your projects unhindered as can the hybridizers.:cool:
Click to expand...

Ive got some real ground-breaking news for ya, any "honest representation" of a man-made intergrade or hybrid is basically LOST when they leave the honest sellers table, and the offspring, and their offspring's offspring, etc.. will typically get unknowingly sold as whatever they happen to best represent at any given point by whoever happens to have them and label them..........where is the guess-work in that?

You seem to think you have all the answers for everything, but it's just a bunch of wishful drivel to drive your wreckless agenda machine. That is not how the hobby works, and if you think it is, you are more lost than I even first thought.

Also, most of this won't ever effect most of the things I work with, but it certainly DOES and WILL affect the vast majority of the hobby's stuff that are far less experienced and don't know the true difference of things, and don't know the right sources that can often take many years to know of. Again dangit!, this is not specifically regarding corns at all, even though this IS a cornsnake forum, but rather ALL types of snakes. Notice it's NOT called the "hybrid.com" forum either....so WTF???
 
:sidestep:stupid breeders why cant you just leave things be?
That was the question. I was attempting to answer that question as well as some reservations that purists might have to hybridizers desires to hybridize.

Your wishful drivel :madeuce:comment to further denigrate :blowup:my stance that accurate records are important and must be kept by the purist who wishes to keep their specimens pure or of a given does not detract from my stance. Yes, I understand that once they leave the honest purists hands or honest hybridizers hands these records may be lost. If you buy snakes with lost records or lost pedigree charts you as a breeder or hybridizer are contributing to that loss and no one else. You have to make a conscious decision and that decision is do I value the pedigree more or do I value the beauty of the snake in question more? If the answer is that you value the beauty more than you have not lost anything if you buy what pleases your eye. If you value the pedigree more, then you have cut off your own nose when decide to purchase a snake that has an unknown pedigree. My simple advice is keep records to ensure you are breeding the exact location variety to the same exact location variety if that is your goal. Keep meticulous records so that you can track each and every specimen all the way back to its point of origin in the wild. Heck, keep track of the exact grid coordinates if you want and map those out. I am sure there are others that would appreciate your work and work with you. But, do no blame the hybridizer for hybridizing or fouling up your pure specimens. It is the person who fails to keep records of their specimens origin or breeding or the person that fails to ask for these records and no one else's fault. I create a hybrid. You don't want that hybrid in your pool. I get that. Don't invite unknowns into your pool and there won't be unknowns in your pool.:cool:
 
The long and short of it is if you want records of your pure local derived specimens and you want to prove that your specimens are all derived and bred back to wild specimens all found in Raleigh, N.C. and not specimens from Raleigh breed to specimens from Hanging Rock N.C. then that is your responsibility to do so and others that share a similar goal as you. It is not anyone else's responsibility to do this for you and it is certainly not the hybridizers responsibility to keep those records for you. Share records of what you think is noteworthy and I am sure there will be others that take your side and will covet those records as much as you do. If however, you can not account for a single specimens complete history (pedigree chart) all the way back to its point of origin in the wild... I think you have a moot point even with your own stock.:bomb:
I'm not saying that you can't produce those documents for each and every snake in your collection, but it is something to think about. It is something to ponder. Who's responsibility is it to keep records and who gets to decide what is important to keep records about each specimen? I'd like to think there is room for both hybridizers and purists and I'd like to think that purists can and will take responsibility for keeping their lines pure by whatever definition you choose to use to define pure. Perhaps breeding a Raleigh, N.C. cornsnake to a Hanging Rock N.C. is close enough to consider it not going over the line. Perhaps, to a more staunch purist if the snake is found at grid coordinates that are more than 100 meters apart that snake should not be allowed to breed to its counterpart. Now, if we consider time variables in evolution and movement... perhaps the location and time of each wild caught specimen should be kept as well? Cornsnakes may be determined by one group of purists to be able to breed only when they are found within a certain distance from each other and a certain time. Imagine those records? For me, I can imagine a purist that would only allow corn snakes found at the 35.843866-78.474162 to breed with corn snakes found within +- 0.001862 of that to breed. Anything found outside of that range would be deemed too far away and thus not from the locality in question.
 
Carpe Serpentis said:
:sidestep:stupid breeders why cant you just leave things be?
That was the question. I was attempting to answer that question as well as some reservations that purists might have to hybridizers desires to hybridize.

Your wishful drivel :madeuce:comment to further denigrate :blowup:my stance that accurate records are important and must be kept by the purist who wishes to keep their specimens pure or of a given does not detract from my stance. Yes, I understand that once they leave the honest purists hands or honest hybridizers hands these records may be lost. If you buy snakes with lost records or lost pedigree charts you as a breeder or hybridizer are contributing to that loss and no one else. You have to make a conscious decision and that decision is do I value the pedigree more or do I value the beauty of the snake in question more? If the answer is that you value the beauty more than you have not lost anything if you buy what pleases your eye. If you value the pedigree more, then you have cut off your own nose when decide to purchase a snake that has an unknown pedigree. My simple advice is keep records to ensure you are breeding the exact location variety to the same exact location variety if that is your goal. Keep meticulous records so that you can track each and every specimen all the way back to its point of origin in the wild. Heck, keep track of the exact grid coordinates if you want and map those out. I am sure there are others that would appreciate your work and work with you. But, do no blame the hybridizer for hybridizing or fouling up your pure specimens. It is the person who fails to keep records of their specimens origin or breeding or the person that fails to ask for these records and no one else's fault. I create a hybrid. You don't want that hybrid in your pool. I get that. Don't invite unknowns into your pool and there won't be unknowns in your pool.:cool:
Click to expand...

I certainly don't blame the hybridizers or other man-made ssp. crossers for anything I own or work with, because they don't have anything to do with my collection. However, they are why so many indistinguishable, misidentified, and imposter-type snakes are indeed in the vast majority of collections of the hobby mainstream.

Anyway, we will surely agree to disagree, so with that said, not a whole lot more can be said that hasn't already been addressed.

Just for the record, the "hobby Honduran" morphs are the only exception to this of course, but those are what they are today from an entirely different set of circumstances for decades practically from day one of their importation decades ago. That was caused by the native collectors, then the importers and exporters not knowing the differences, or many times where they were even collected in the first place, and then labeling them as whatever they thought they might be or where they thought they came from. This is yet another bit of complicated politics and "red tape" all in itself, but I am happy to say that I do know where to acquire very authentic L.t.hondurensis from central Nicaragua, as well as several other truly authentic locale-specific milksnake ssp. The general hobbyists don't have the slightest clue as to where to acquire these types of things, but I think this is also a fabulous thing anyway, or else these snakes would also be just as mucked-up as most of the other snakes in the general hobby.


~Doug
 
Just to give all of you the ugly truth I been keeping corns since 1983 in that time I have seen many corns crossed with emoryi, kings, milks, bulls and gophers. Some breeders bred these back to pure corns. A lot of those offspring looked like pure corns. A lot of those animals went to people who in time went out of the hobby or sold them to pet stores. Some of those animals were no doubt bred back into corns. I know of one breeder that took a 3/4 corn and 1/4 cal king and bred that to a pure corn. He sold them to people at the White plains reptile show. He produced them for a few years and always sold them as corns. How may other people did the same with other 3/4 corns crossing them back to corns. Where did all those corns ended up. The Corns snakes that people keep today with all the mutations are mutts. Sorry but this is the truth. The colorful gene mutations we all have come to love have been tainted. Corns are the cannery of the snake world. In nature corn hybrids have been found in the wild with yellow, Grey and black rats. So whats is a pure corn. How dose one decide where and when what is pure. I know between the north and south Carolina there is a void of corns in the wild there is also a different scale count in corns that live in north and south populations.

Any breeder claming to have pure corns that got into the hobby in the last 10 years is full of crap. The only way is if you have locality corns that can be traced to the wild and all the animals used in that line be traced back to the wild. Other than that if you have mixed locality, all animals in that were used in that line have to be traced back to wild caughts
 
Vinman said:
Just to give all of you the ugly truth I been keeping corns since 1983 in that time I have seen many corns crossed with emoryi, kings, milks, bulls and gophers. Some breeders bred these back to pure corns. A lot of those offspring looked like pure corns. A lot of those animals went to people who in time went out of the hobby or sold them to pet stores. Some of those animals were no doubt bred back into corns. I know of one breeder that took a 3/4 corn and 1/4 cal king and bred that to a pure corn. He sold them to people at the White plains reptile show. He produced them for a few years and always sold them as corns. How may other people did the same with other 3/4 corns crossing them back to corns. Where did all those corns ended up. The Corns snakes that people keep today with all the mutations are mutts. Sorry but this is the truth. The colorful gene mutations we all have come to love have been tainted. Corns are the cannery of the snake world. In nature corn hybrids have been found in the wild with yellow, Grey and black rats. So whats is a pure corn. How dose one decide where and when what is pure. I know between the north and south Carolina there is a void of corns in the wild there is also a different scale count in corns that live in north and south populations.

Any breeder claming to have pure corns that got into the hobby in the last 10 years is full of crap. The only way is if you have locality corns that can be traced to the wild and all the animals used in that line be traced back to the wild. Other than that if you have mixed locality, all animals in that were used in that line have to be traced back to wild caughts
Click to expand...

That totally supports what my point has always been in the first place, and it is nothing I don't already know all about in my 46 years of snake keeping. There are definite exceptions to some of what you stated there of course, but yes, there are COUNTLESS thousands of mutt corns, kings, milks, rats etc.. everywhere in the hobby. I see it every single day in all different types of snakes.

Thanks for helping prove my points, even though I don't think you ever intend to...LOL! :duck:
 
What about cornsnake morphs that pop up in the wild, such as anery, amel, hypo and motley? Are those mutts??
 
I just sate what I know not trying to prove or disprove anyones posts. As for Publan and sinaloans milks, it is funny that they have the same hypo genes as Hondurans and all of a sudden poped up a few years after hypo hundorans were al the rage. The whole hobby is full of hybrids. I on the other hand have stoped buying corn mutartions for years with the exception of the cinder from RZ. I will only buy corn mutations that are pure and have not been crossed into hobby stock. I like hybrids but do not belive in breeding a 50/50 cross to a pure animal that was used in the cross. I try to breed my hybrids to other hybrids to make something that does not occure in nature. If i do back breed I kill off any female young and castrate the males that look pure so not to commentate the gene pool . I have a 3/4 corn 1/4 MBK albino I refuse to sell to anyone because I'm afraid of what someone is going to breed her to. I bred her to my cornduran but had very little luck with the eggs either heat kills the eggs or they come out unferital. I hope to get young next year so I can breed those to my F2 50/50 gray band corn. The same goes for my 50/50 grayband corn. It is a f2 50/50 cross and looks like a pure gray band. I don't want to sell her to anyone and I don't just want to cross her to anything that my will make young that look pure.
 
Nanci said:
What about cornsnake morphs that pop up in the wild, such as anery, amel, hypo and motley? Are those mutts??
Click to expand...

find me some and I'll get rid of the stock I have. I know of one breeder with locality corns from a Island off S.C. the F1 adults probuced albinos. I lost them a few years back I hope to get more off him if he stills breeds them. I know Hypos naturally occor in Tampa. I would like to get mutations of everything if I could find them from wild caught stock
 
DMong said:
I certainly don't blame the hybridizers or other man-made ssp. crossers for anything I own or work with, because they don't have anything to do with my collection. However, they are why so many indistinguishable, misidentified, and imposter-type snakes are indeed in the vast majority of collections of the hobby mainstream.

Anyway, we will surely agree to disagree, so with that said, not a whole lot more can be said that hasn't already been addressed.

Just for the record, the "hobby Honduran" morphs are the only exception to this of course, but those are what they are today from an entirely different set of circumstances for decades practically from day one of their importation decades ago. That was caused by the native collectors, then the importers and exporters not knowing the differences, or many times where they were even collected in the first place, and then labeling them as whatever they thought they might be or where they thought they came from. This is yet another bit of complicated politics and "red tape" all in itself, but I am happy to say that I do know where to acquire very authentic L.t.hondurensis from central Nicaragua, as well as several other truly authentic locale-specific milksnake ssp. The general hobbyists don't have the slightest clue as to where to acquire these types of things, but I think this is also a fabulous thing anyway, or else these snakes would also be just as mucked-up as most of the other snakes in the general hobby.


~Doug
Click to expand...

You are going to have to explain some things for me so I can understand you better. " The general hobbyists don't have the slightest clue as to where to acquire these types of things, but I think this is also a fabulous thing anyway, or else these snakes would also be just as mucked-up as most of the other snakes in the general hobby." per Doug.

Now, why is it that the general hobbyists not knowing where to acquire pure specimens is a fabulous thing? I think personally that if they knew where to acquire these prized specimens that more people might actually try to breed pure specimens and keep good records of each local specific type and so on and so forth. It might be a source of pride for breeders and hobbyists alike to say, I have my pure specimen such and such from this breeder along with pedigree charts and certificate of authenticity. Are there not enough pure specimens to go around to satisfy the desires of those who want to breed pure specimens? What about those that would like to keep track of parentage and location for their own hybrid projects? If the local-specific stock is in such shortage that it can not fill the demands of even the purists and must be kept secret are you worried inbreeding becoming a problem with this small stock of select specimens? If I had access to something so rare and could prove it, I would stand behind it 100% and shout it from the roof tops. I would share my love of pure specimens with others and not hoard them as some secret treasure only to be given out to select individuals in the right club. I'm not saying that is what you are doing, but it sounds that way from my perspective. Clarify anything I have grossly misinterpreted if you would.
:sobstory:
 
Carpe Serpentis, you're not gonna have any succes with this discussion, the giant gap between DMongs view and yours (which is mine) cannot be crossed let alone be closed. Don't know if you have read this entire thread but I used all your reasoning and different approaches already... I love to read your posts though, they are well written and completely logical to me :) I can not understand either why purists worry so much about a hobby population they do not get snakes from whilst the people that do get snakes from it, don't care (much) about it themselves. And if they do start to care, they can just ask DMong or other purists for snakes...
 
SnakeAround said:
Carpe Serpentis, you're not gonna have any succes with this discussion, the giant gap between DMongs view and yours (which is mine) cannot be crossed let alone be closed. Don't know if you have read this entire thread but I used all your reasoning and different approaches already... I love to read your posts though, they are well written and completely logical to me :) I can not understand either why purists worry so much about a hobby population they do not get snakes from whilst the people that do get snakes from it, don't care (much) about it themselves. And if they do start to care, they can just ask DMong or other purists for snakes...
Click to expand...

I realize what you are saying my friend and I have read your posts. I also realize that talking to some people that are so engrained in their own beliefs that they can not see the same logic that you and I see as plainly as the nose on our faces is largely a moot point, still... there is always the chance that either party may have some insight into the others way of thinking if enough intelligent discussion is made. Slim as that chance may be.... Prejudices are hard to work out. I am not prejudiced against the purist or the hybridizer. I support both sides of the argument. I think it is wonderful that some are trying to keep specimens pure to a a specific location even.... I also think there is much to be learned from hybridizing different species and yes, much to be gained in the way of eye candy as well.:cool:
 
Vinman said:
I just sate what I know not trying to prove or disprove anyones posts. As for Publan and sinaloans milks, it is funny that they have the same hypo genes as Hondurans and all of a sudden poped up a few years after hypo hundorans were al the rage. The whole hobby is full of hybrids. I on the other hand have stoped buying corn mutartions for years with the exception of the cinder from RZ. I will only buy corn mutations that are pure and have not been crossed into hobby stock. I like hybrids but do not belive in breeding a 50/50 cross to a pure animal that was used in the cross. I try to breed my hybrids to other hybrids to make something that does not occure in nature. If i do back breed I kill off any female young and castrate the males that look pure so not to commentate the gene pool . I have a 3/4 corn 1/4 MBK albino I refuse to sell to anyone because I'm afraid of what someone is going to breed her to. I bred her to my cornduran but had very little luck with the eggs either heat kills the eggs or they come out unferital. I hope to get young next year so I can breed those to my F2 50/50 gray band corn. The same goes for my 50/50 grayband corn. It is a f2 50/50 cross and looks like a pure gray band. I don't want to sell her to anyone and I don't just want to cross her to anything that my will make young that look pure.
Click to expand...

Hi, may I ask how do you castrate a snake? you can pm me if you prefer.
 
So when you castrate snakes do you tell the people who buy them, or is it a secret? It's been rumored that some breeders castrate males secretly in order to prevent competitive breeding down the line of the high-end morphs they sell. That disgusts me.
 
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