stupid breeders why cant you just leave things be

[DMong]

Hey Carpe Serpentis.........now that you revived this thread full-throttle just like you wanted, have fun.

Time for me to bolt from here.....I can't take any more of this insanity, and shouldn't have ever posted anything when I saw the stink being stirred back up to the surface after it was long dead.

ta!-ta!

 

[Vinman]

If I tell the pet store owner or buyer of the store that I cut off the hemipens do you really think they are going to pass that info to the customer. They throw them in the same tank with all the other normal corns . They have no idea what is what. When I sell them corns they all go in the same tank. Some will sepreat the morphs some will keep them together.

 

[Carpe Serpentis]

I know, I can just imagine me asking my close buds if their nice authentic offspring has been castrated or not.

It reminds me of competing Mexican drug cartels that will do whatever it takes to ensure that what they do continues on for them at any cost..... :shrugs:

Now that simply is not true Dmong! There are plenty of friendly and ethical drug cartels! What is next? Your going to be telling us how there really were weapons of mass destruction?:nyah:

Personally, I just want to know that the snake I am buying is healthy and whole in the complete sense of the word whole. I don't want to buy a snake that has kinks has been castrated and has been sold to me as a pure corn when in fact he is 7/8s corn. I don't mind if he is 7/8s corn, I just want it disclosed upfront and I'd like the parentage if at all possible. Heck, I'd love to see pictures of the parents and siblings as well for his record book. But that is me and what I would like. If pictures of grandparents are available... I'd love those as well. I'm crazy like that.

 

[Carpe Serpentis]

:devil01:Take care Dmong. Its been real talking to you. Some interesting tidbits learned as well about both sides of the fence. So, definitely worth the heated discussion. Thanks for your time and your opinion on the matter. Thank you as well Vinman. I admit, I had my buttons pushed a few times on here, but it was a good learning experience for me. One thing is for certain, we can not all agree about anything in this world. If we did, there would be world peace and love and no wars at all. For anyone else I missed, I learned a lot from so many of your posts. Thanks for sharing. :bounce:

 

[Vinman]

Now that simply is not true Dmong! There are plenty of friendly and ethical drug cartels! What is next? Your going to be telling us how there really were weapons of mass destruction?:nyah:

Personally, I just want to know that the snake I am buying is healthy and whole in the complete sense of the word whole. I don't want to buy a snake that has kinks has been castrated and has been sold to me as a pure corn when in fact he is 7/8s corn. I don't mind if he is 7/8s corn, I just want it disclosed upfront and I'd like the parentage if at all possible. Heck, I'd love to see pictures of the parents and siblings as well for his record book. But that is me and what I would like. If pictures of grandparents are available... I'd love those as well. I'm crazy like that.

That is why you buy them off a honest breeder and not a petstore. I only did this to 3 males. like I posted before I dont like to make 3/4 corns

 

[Carpe Serpentis]

Vinman, I know you have your reasons for doing what you do. I know it makes sense to you. I also agree that it is better to get your breeders from a breeder rather than a pet store. I disagree with the importance of not making 3/4 or even 7/8th corns. I do however think that hybrids should have accurate records ideally. Especially when they look like a pure species. If a hybrid looks like a pure species and can is not detectable as a hybrid then its only value as a hybrid is if it is carrying a gene that is not present in the corn gene pool, but is not showing itself in the hybrid as it needs to be in a homozygous state to show itself. If that is the case then by all means, a 7/8 corn that holds a gene that can express itself when crossed to a sibling and result in a new phenotypical expression is well worth the trouble.
I also see your point of wanting to simply create something totally unique and different. Something readily apparent by even the beginning enthusiast as being a hybrid. I'm for the crazier the better myself as well. I don't like subtle changes so much as grandiose ones.

 

[Vinman]

A 7/8 corn is going to look pure. Now lets say you own one and sell it off as a pet and that person one day passes it to a pet store or another person and they forget it is a hybrid. or they sell it to a pet store and someone ends up breeding it. This is why the pure corns are tainted with other snakes now. The right thing to do is kill the females and castrate the males to preserve the pure bloodlines. It is so hard to find pure colubrids these days because of all the hybrids that get passed for pure. Maybe you don't care but their are a lot of us out there that do. all the effort to fide out that what we thought were intergrades in La are 2 new subspecies You have to look at the big picture. Is cool that you just like a pretty snake but if you want a pure one you should be able to have one. These 3/4 and 7/8 corns are messing up the gene pool for those of us that want to keep pure corns. I can hope you can see my point. I don't like to write and have problems like a eye hand coordination problem and I'm dyslexic and don't spell well so if you like to discuss it further you cal call me and I can go into detail. I will be up till 12:30 am

718 792 2593

 

[Carpe Serpentis]

The solution is simple honesty and even ACR registered hybrid snakes. Still, the accuracy of the records depends on the honesty of the registering breeder. With a registered hybrid, the owner will never have to worry about remembering. It will be well documented. I understand your concerns. There will always be unethical people or people whose ethics differ from yours. I understand both sides of the argument. You'll just have to trust me on that or not. In the end, it doesn't matter as I and others like me will do exactly what they want regardless. Some will do it ethically and as others have pointed out... some not so ethically. I'd much rather promote the registering of hybrids than to have them go out to homes without any documentation as to their lineage. Hybrids should be held to higher standards than non-hybrids in my opinion.

 

[Kokopelli]

First off I'm of the opinion that people should stop shoving their noses up into other people's anal glands and publicly announce if they judge in favor of said scent or not ( I don't see Carpe Serpentis doing it)
I think people are very selective about what they consider to be facts. I also think that people are confusing being rude and repetitive with being logical.
So… this is what I know:
1- Snakes as a hobby have been established prior to accurate classification of many species. There are very few snakes you can reliably classify and determine as pure without a single shred of doubt.
2- Reliably acquiring ‘pure’ animals means removal from the wild- this is the only 100% foolproof way of doing what purists preach. So by favoring preservation of a species within the hobby, you’re jeopardizing their natural preservation status.
3- Just as people are capable of lying and sell hybrids, people can lie and sell “pure” animals as well.
Lastly… the fact that I want things to be conducted in a certain way does not mean I go around and insult anyone who doesn’t see things my way. The approach presented in this thread is elitistic and kind of arrogant… people who disagree aren’t necessarily less smart than you… in all truth, I think they have a more solid grasp of the true state of affairs. What is it with people trying to apply “purity” and hierarchy to life-forms anyways? ( I guess that’s a question for another thread).
If one truly wishes to preserve a species, be a conservationist and preserve these pure species where they belong, in the wild. If you want to do so within the hobby, take into account that a) you are creating a demand and trend for something that might very well lead to exploitation and removal of the very animals you seek to preserve from their natural habitat. And b) you’re not the only person in the hobby, for good or ill.

 

[Kokopelli]

Ah and c) it doesn't make you better than everyone else.

 

[Carpe Serpentis]

Kokopelli, I like your style. I couldn't agree more with your post. I'm pure Homo sapien unless of course you count the Homo neanderthalensis several generations back, but I'm assured that was far enough back not to count in my pedigree. Besides, its not like it shows up more than once or twice.... We don't even discuss Homo heidelbergensis either as that was on my fathers, mothers side.

 

[dave partington]

For awhile I bought into the Ultra is a hybrid thing, but not so sure anymore.

I asked this before on this thread and received no response so I will try again

For all of the Ultra out there
which is usually reputed to come from a white oak phase gray ratsnake

breeders who have ultra in their collections:
How many visual white oak phase gray cornsnakes have you produced?

 

[Vinman]

For awhile I bought into the Ultra is a hybrid thing, but not so sure anymore.

I asked this before on this thread and received no response so I will try again

For all of the Ultra out there
which is usually reputed to come from a white oak phase gray ratsnake

breeders who have ultra in their collections:
How many visual white oak phase gray cornsnakes have you produced?

you won't see that dave after you cross a rat snake into a corn and then back to a corn again you should not see that much differance in the young from a pure corn . Back in 95 or 96 I caught a green rat in the Okeetee. It was around 4.5 feet it had red markings like a corn on its sides. I showed it to a local snake hunter and he agreeded with me it looks like it had some corn in it . The was another guy I know that used to work with hybrids . He moved from NJ to NC and found a corn black rat cross in the wild. Another collector in Fl told me he finds around 2 to 4 yellow rat corn hybrids in the wild every year. So corns and rat snakes hybridnize in the wild every now and then.

 

[Kokopelli]

Aren't naturally occuring hybrids considered integrates?
Also, this goes too shows just how much we know about what led to the creation of a classified species... the origin of many of the known species can actually be a product of such occurances.

 

[DMong]

For awhile I bought into the Ultra is a hybrid thing, but not so sure anymore.

I asked this before on this thread and received no response so I will try again

For all of the Ultra out there
which is usually reputed to come from a white oak phase gray ratsnake

breeders who have ultra in their collections:
How many visual white oak phase gray cornsnakes have you produced?

I'm sure the answer is none. The ultra/ultramels were indeed originally produced from a "frosted snow" x cornsnake breeding. The "frosted" part of the equation of course being the white oak gray ratsnake influence that was used. Additionally, the odds of anyone ever producing any ultra/ultramel-looking snakes from a random corn x gray rat crossing is about as likely as them stumbing over a pirate's chest of gold bars walking down a crowded beach. It just so happened that some mutant gene in those first crossings did in fact line up allelic-wise on the chromosome to produce a bizarre incomplete dominance trait that is allelic with amelanism now known as ultra/ultramel.

Being that the gray rat influence of those much earlier breedings has been out-bred into so many countless more cornsnakes since then, there is no way on earth any of these ultra/ultramel "corns" would ever display any phenotypic gray ratsnake markers. However, even though they basically "look" like authentic cornsnakes now from all the successive out-breedings to cornsnakes, they are still hybrids genetically, just more diluted down with much more cornsnake influence is all. :duck:



~Doug


~Doug

 

[DMong]

Aren't naturally occuring hybrids considered integrates?
Also, this goes too shows just how much we know about what led to the creation of a classified species... the origin of many of the known species can actually be a product of such occurances.

No, when the natural ranges of two or more neighboring subspecies meet together and overlap, they are naturally-occurring intergrades. Two seperate species that breed in nature or captivity are considered hybrids, such as a P.guttatus x any obsoletus complex would be a hybrid. A naturally occuring breeding of a California king x Desert king (splendida) in southeastern Arizona is an example of an intergrade, and by the same token a Yellow x Black Rat breeding from South Carolina "greenish rat" would be another example of a natural intergrade.

 

[Kokopelli]

Right, but if two species met in the wild, that would indicate that said subspecies might be overlapping or neighboring to one another, no? unless you're betting that this is due to pets escaping into the wild, creating said hybrids?
I am talking about Vinman's post.

 

[Vinman]

Right, but if two species met in the wild, that would indicate that said subspecies might be overlapping or neighboring to one another, no? unless you're betting that this is due to pets escaping into the wild, creating said hybrids?
I am talking about Vinman's post.

The black rat X corn happened in a remote area of NC. It was a adult what did it bred with in the wild another rat por a corn????? What about the green rat withnthe red/orange eyelets runnung down the leanth of the body. I never seen that before and the same with John green who grew up in Jasper Co. Where did that snakes mother or father who had corn in it breed to besides another green rat. Did it also breed with corns too. Why do Okeetees and other low land corns for SC have a higher keel to the scale than other corns do. What about all the yellow rat corn hybrids in Fl. I remember seing a wild caught corn in a pet store about 15 or more years ago that was funky looking . you could see it had yellow rat in it. So how many deluted hybrid corns are in the wild are there with rat snake in them. The funny thing here is when DNA studdys were done about 10 years ago obsoletus is more closely realated to Pituophis than gutta according to Bob Fenga

 

[starsevol]

For awhile I bought into the Ultra is a hybrid thing, but not so sure anymore.

I asked this before on this thread and received no response so I will try again

For all of the Ultra out there
which is usually reputed to come from a white oak phase gray ratsnake

breeders who have ultra in their collections:
How many visual white oak phase gray cornsnakes have you produced?

Dave, Rich Z seems to think that the ultra gene is pure corn. I can't remember where he posted about it but you should ask him.

 

[Nanci]

Does Rich Z think they are pure corn, or just that the history is so muddied and the original people involved are gone or won't talk about it or don't remember, so the truth has been lost? that there is no _proof_ that they are not pure corn?