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stupid breeders why cant you just leave things be

Nanci said:
Does Rich Z think they are pure corn, or just that the history is so muddied and the original people involved are gone or won't talk about it or don't remember, so the truth has been lost? that there is no _proof_ that they are not pure corn?
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I hope he comes in here and repeats what he said before, but I seem to remember him saying that he has worked with ultra extensively and with all he has hatched he has never seen any indictation that they were not pure corn...and that the people who started the rumor (he named them, I don't remember the names) are not always the most trustworthy of sources and that they may have had an agenda for stating that ultra came from gray rats.
Now I could be horribly wrong on this, but this is what I remember.
 
It's not a super-old thread. Probably in the last 12 months or so. It could probably be exhumed. Maybe I'll try later. Probably just search for posts by Rich containing grey gray rat and ultra.
 
My 2 cents

JMHO

My VMS Tequila Sunrise stuff springs from a highly frosted ultramel anery A. I think she is a hybrid, I also think she is a descendant of the "Gray Snow" line of "frosted creams", gray rat/corn morphs strictly by breeding results I was able to compare to the few pics you can actually find of true "frosted creams" and tracking what breeders had them from the two original breeders, Falcon and Barr. Where or how "ultra" was introduced to this specific line I can't say. I don't think being a "white oak" gray rat would have made any differrencr; "white oak" was based on locality. It's not a morph gray rat...
 
If a corn from a known hybrid line actually ain't distinguishable from a said to be pure corn, who says it is not as pure as the pure corn is in reality? If you find a snake in the wild, one identifies the species by looks and certain features, usually not by DNA tests. Those wild caught snakes could carry as much alien material as a F6 known hybrid. I am pretty sure that everyone here knows that the percentages in hybrids are just averages. Backcrossed F6 is said to be 50% x 50% x50% x50% x50% x50% =1/64 of the alien ancestor but in reality an f6 hatchling can have inherited just 1/205 of alien genes. That is why some hatchlings look exactly like the species one started with and others still have some hybrid markers; the latter might actually exist of 1/16 of alien genes.
 
Well, some people, like DMong, _care_ about the 1/205 alien genes, and many do not. The people who _do_ care are a whole 'nother layer of hobbyist. I just yesterday sent out my "purest" pair of locality corns to a new home- a son and daughter of WC parents from a key. Hate to see them go- but space is limited. I'm sure "purists" will value highly their near-WC history.
 
I am trying to say that any wild caught animal might be as stained as an F6 hybrid... without DNA testing one cannot know the true purity. So, the whole idea of pureness = wild caught to me seems a bit of a false truth, only acceptable by forgetting that nature does not care as much about purity as the purists do.
 
SnakeAround said:
I am trying to say that any wild caught animal might be as stained as an F6 hybrid... without DNA testing one cannot know the true purity. So, the whole idea of pureness = wild caught to me seems a bit of a false truth, only acceptable by forgetting that nature does not care as much about purity as the purists do.
Click to expand...

from what I seen and heard from collectors this is the case
 
Vinman said:
from what I seen and heard from collectors this is the case
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kinda makes one wonder what an f6 south florida yellow rat X corn would look like...ya know, when there are severe storms and lots of flotsam from the mainland gets swept down river current and washes up on an island beach and then lays around there for a few hundred generations...
 
what about all the hybrids that were in collections and reptile facility's that got wipe out by the hurricanes
 
Nanci said:
Well, some people, like DMong, _care_ about the 1/205 alien genes, and many do not. The people who _do_ care are a whole 'nother layer of hobbyist. I just yesterday sent out my "purest" pair of locality corns to a new home- a son and daughter of WC parents from a key. Hate to see them go- but space is limited. I'm sure "purists" will value highly their near-WC history.
Click to expand...

Well, first of all, the figure of "1/205 alien gene" thing is a complete crock since there is no such thing as being "het for hybrid". All of the successive offspring would still be hybrids, just more and more phenotypic of authentic cornsnakes as they are bred to more is all. I knew of a guy years ago that told another herpetologist buddy of mine that he could make more Guatemalan L.t.abnorma from one specimen after about two generations of selective-breeding them to the "hobby Hondos"........I've never heard of anything so ridiculous in all of my life!!. :roflmao: It is the same thing with just about every snake in the hobby, if they look pretty close, they are accepted as the "real-deal" over time simply from being out there for a while. Second of all, I would never claim that there is some degree of natural hybridization in the wild, because it does happen here and there. The main point and concern is that just because it can and does happen in nature now and then, this seems to be the big pseudo-justification "green light" for hybridizers and other man-made subspecific crossers to toss everything together like a salad muddying everything up as much as humanly possible intentionally AND accidentally from not knowing (or caring) what they actually have (ironically, much of it from the previous reasons I gave) then simply say....."oh, well it happens in nature, and how does everyone know their stuff is "pure", so what's the beef with me doing tons more of it intentionally here in my snake room?" Well, making as many countless thousands more of them in captivity on purpose sure as heck doesn't help matters out,.........that's really the entire "beef". Just because it is known to happen in the wild here and there, why does this have to be justification all the hybrid advocates constantly use for doing it??

Also, the term "pure" is really for chemicals and compounds rather than most living organisms since they evolve, even though people understand what is generally meant when it is used.

It's really odd how some people look at me as some sort of "bad guy" or breeder "police" simply because I am an advocate for keeping snakes as real as possible for others to be able to enjoy in the future.

I know, that's just horrible! :awcrap:
 
oops!.............

"I would never claim that there is some degree of natural hybridization in the wild, because it does happen here and there."


..........I meant ISN'T, not "is"..LOL!
 
ps, I also have morphs of many things too, but I don't change the species or subspecies they are when breeding them. Nothing wrong with morphs at all. And people that acquire them can plainly tell what specific types they are.
 
DMong, I think people see you as a "bad guy" because of how aggressive and "mean" you are when arguing or debating with someone. Just because it's your opinion and concern doesn't mean you have to be so condescending to others who do not agree.

That's my thought anyway, just from observing your posts from the side lines.
Don't try to force your opinions on, or ridicule others and your arguments are just as valid.
 
All of the successive offspring would still be hybrids, just more and more phenotypic of authentic cornsnakes as they are bred to more is all.
Click to expand...

If we couple this with Vinman's comment about the hybrid black rat/corn he mentioned a few pages back, we should just go ahead and assume EVERY wild caught snake, at least from NC and FL, are suspect hybrids, since it apparently does happen in the wild. :sidestep:

Doug I respect your (and every other hobbyist) opinion on this, I just don't agree with it. JMHO we are dealing with a "pet" snake population. Nothing about it is "pure", "real" etc. That being said if and when I want locality animals represented as honestly as possible well, you know I'll be contacting you :)
 
Tara80 said:
DMong, I think people see you as a "bad guy" because of how aggressive and "mean" you are when arguing or debating with someone. Just because it's your opinion and concern doesn't mean you have to be so condescending to others who do not agree.

That's my thought anyway, just from observing your posts from the side lines.
Don't try to force your opinions on, or ridicule others and your arguments are just as valid.
Click to expand...

You go girl Well put. Your getting points for this post
 
DMong said:
Well, first of all, the figure of "1/205 alien gene" thing is a complete crock since there is no such thing as being "het for hybrid". All of the successive offspring would still be hybrids, just more and more phenotypic of authentic cornsnakes as they are bred to more is all. I knew of a guy years ago that told another herpetologist buddy of mine that he could make more Guatemalan L.t.abnorma from one specimen after about two generations of selective-breeding them to the "hobby Hondos"........I've never heard of anything so ridiculous in all of my life!!. :roflmao: It is the same thing with just about every snake in the hobby, if they look pretty close, they are accepted as the "real-deal" over time simply from being out there for a while. Second of all, I would never claim that there is some degree of natural hybridization in the wild, because it does happen here and there. The main point and concern is that just because it can and does happen in nature now and then, this seems to be the big pseudo-justification "green light" for hybridizers and other man-made subspecific crossers to toss everything together like a salad muddying everything up as much as humanly possible intentionally AND accidentally from not knowing (or caring) what they actually have (ironically, much of it from the previous reasons I gave) then simply say....."oh, well it happens in nature, and how does everyone know their stuff is "pure", so what's the beef with me doing tons more of it intentionally here in my snake room?" Well, making as many countless thousands more of them in captivity on purpose sure as heck doesn't help matters out,.........that's really the entire "beef". Just because it is known to happen in the wild here and there, why does this have to be justification all the hybrid advocates constantly use for doing it??

Also, the term "pure" is really for chemicals and compounds rather than most living organisms since they evolve, even though people understand what is generally meant when it is used.

It's really odd how some people look at me as some sort of "bad guy" or breeder "police" simply because I am an advocate for keeping snakes as real as possible for others to be able to enjoy in the future.

I know, that's just horrible! :awcrap:
Click to expand...

When did I say het for hybrid? I am talking about the percentages used to state how much of each species a hybrid is made of: king x corn makes 50% corn, 50% king off spring, but that is where the exact percentage stops. People do however use the percentages to give an idea of how much of each (sub)species is in a snake. If a hybrdizer breeds such a 50/50% corn x king to a king, they call the off spring 75% king, 25% corn. I assumed you knew that. But what I'm trying to make clear is, that the hybrid parent might as wel pass mostly king copies of its genes or mostly corn. I am pretty sure you understand how inheritance works at that level. So, after a few generations of outcrossing and/or cross breeding, the percentage of each species varies a lot between hybrids of the same clutch, which is actually what many breeders find exciting about it.

Further, I am not justifying hybridization by saying it also happens in the wild. I was trying to explain that the amount of alien genes in a random hobby corn snake might on average be the same as the amount in a random corn taken from the wild. So, what's the use of taking them from the wild? Please go on doing what you do and be happy with it, but the whole concept seems bogus to me.
 
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