stupid breeders why cant you just leave things be

[Vinman]

Okay, thanks a bunch for pointing those things out. So what about the amel corn thing you asked me about?

post 694 you must have not seen it I do the same thing sometimes

As you may know the first albino corn is a wild caught albino male caught in NC was bred to a emoryi before they bred it to a corn. You claim to have pure corn stock and then you go and say you have mutations in your colection. If they are corn snake mutations then your in the same boat with everyone else . You got hobby stock and most likely got something else besides corn snake in your animals

 

[Vinman]

Isn't there some designated hybrid forums for your disgussing all of those hybrid issues?. I wasn't aware that a "Honduran milksnake" or Gray-banded king had much to do with a cornsnake forum. Seems to me you wouldn't have to worry about any negative comments if you posted them where they belonged in the first place.

Yes and I posted that same thread there too.

This site also allows selling & discussing hybrid corns too, both of those animals are 50% corn

 

[dave partington]

Isn't there some designated hybrid forums for your disgussing all of those hybrid issues?. I wasn't aware that a "Honduran milksnake" or Gray-banded king had much to do with a cornsnake forum. Seems to me you wouldn't have to worry about any negative comments if you posted them where they belonged in the first place.

Perhaps that question could be addressed in the appropriate place.
http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=6

 

[snakepunk]

Do we even have a working definition of species? The classic definition involves organisms that can breed with each other.
The terms "cornsnake", "kingsnake", milksnake, etc seem rather artificial to me.

Twenty years ago, a creamsicle was considered an intergrade. Now it's a hybrid. Rosy ratsnakes were considered a different subspecies of corn, but now nobody (that I'm aware of) is claiming that cinders are intergrades (although I did have a very weel known breeder tell me personally that they were black rat crosses :nope

And I'm sure some of you have heard about the 2008 paper claim gopher snakes are actually ratsnakes.

What changed?

Who's to say in another 20 years that all ratsnakes, kings, gophersnakes won't be considered just ONE species?

If this is the case, and think that it is, than the whole hybrid argument is moot.

 

[Vinman]

Do we even have a working definition of species? The classic definition involves organisms that can breed with each other.
The terms "cornsnake", "kingsnake", milksnake, etc seem rather artificial to me.

Twenty years ago, a creamsicle was considered an intergrade. Now it's a hybrid. Rosy ratsnakes were considered a different subspecies of corn, but now nobody (that I'm aware of) is claiming that cinders are intergrades (although I did have a very weel known breeder tell me personally that they were black rat crosses :nope

And I'm sure some of you have heard about the 2008 paper claim gopher snakes are actually ratsnakes.

What changed?

Who's to say in another 20 years that all ratsnakes, kings, gophersnakes won't be considered just ONE species?

If this is the case, and think that it is, than the whole hybrid argument is moot.

Pituophis shoud be in the same group as Pantherophis as far as I'm concerned. because if obsoletus is more closely realted to obsoletus than guttatus, then that is the smoking gun right there that they should all be Pantherophis.

 

[Nanci]

Once again, could we get back on one of the many subjects about SNAKES in this thread, rather than whether the general population does or does not like DMong??

 

[DMong]

post 694 you must have not seen it I do the same thing sometimes

Yeah, I didn't see that particular post of yours. Yes, you must be referring to Bechtel's first breedings in 1961 from the amel captured in 1953 (N. Carolina), then the Love's getting some and breeding them to other similar things, such as emoryi. I'm pretty sure that I know far more than you are giving me credit for about many snakes in the hobby, certainly not just cornsnakes. Me saying that I have some morphs here never suggested they had to be cornsnakes, although I do have a couple, and have certainly owned more in previous years as well. I am also aware of many more suspect types in the hobby. I know the hobby history's and natural history's of all sort of stuff that most people aren't aware of. I know of one amel corn that was produced from some wild caught S. Carolina stock that were collected many years ago by a good friend of mine, and it was produced from a huge clutch of two normal parents, so there is no way those two just happened to be anyone's escapee amel hets or there would have been more produced, as well as in the successive future clutches they had.

I also know of people that went up and down the entire eastern seaboard releasing many corn morphs too, and some were said to be released on the 50,000 acre Okeetee estate property. Almost anything is possible now days because of the irresponsibility of so many that are in this hobby now.

The bottom line is that there have been all sorts of authentic morphs of different types of snakes over the many years, but it doesn't take very long for a good number of them to be mucked-up by people. I'm quite certain it will be the very same way with the newly-discovered locality-specific intergrade "moonshine" t-plus rats when I make them available next year. Over time it will likely happen again to the only known authentic stock L.t.abnorma I have to after some years, just like they disappeared before back in the 90's. Some people will likely be crossing the moonshine's into just about anything they can find from hypo Everglades, to White-sided Black rat x amel Yellow rat, and anything else in between. Some morphs stay authentic (depending on who works with them), and others get botched up (also depending on who works with them)......that's definitely how the hobby works. I'm sure it will likely happen to this only known authentic bloodline of central highland Guatemalan milksnakes I have as well over time, but not by me or many others. Recklessness and not knowing the differences in the Latin ssp. is what caused them to totally vanish in the 90's. They were melted down into the "hobby Hondo" melting pot slurry too, just like many of the other Latin ssp. are. It's what happens when there are so many different people involved with all their very different breeding ideas.

 

[DMong]

Yes and I posted that same thread there too.

This site also allows selling & discussing hybrid corns too, both of those animals are 50% corn

Thanks, yes, I am very aware that they were 50% crosses.

 

[Vinman]

the first breeding of the wild albino male corn was crossed in cali with the emori I think by Vince shcite or one of his friends I know I spelled the name wrong.

Doug you got me wrong I know you know a lot about the hobby and it's history.

BTW I had thoes albinos . My friend caught Ricky Walters caught the adults. that produced the albino were F1 . I think Alec bought them off Creg Trumbour. I know the Island they were caught off of and promised Ricky I would not tell where they were caught. If those are the animals your talking about.

 

[DMong]

the first breeding of the wild albino male corn was crossed in cali with the emori I think by Vince shcite or one of his friends I know I spelled the name wrong.

Doug you got me wrong I know you know a lot about the hobby and it's history.

BTW I had thoes albinos . My friend caught the adults Ricky Walters. The adults that produced the albino were F1 .Alec bought them off Creg Trumbour The albinos are F2. I know the Island they were caught off of and promised Ricky I would not tell where they were caught. If those are the animals your talking about.

Oh, okay. I was talking about some that Howie Sherman hatched from a pair of wild-caughts some years back. I'll have to ask him what year that was. I was just talking to him the other day about the Outer Banks kings we both have. He just produced some insane aberrant/stripers this year too.

Yeah, Trumbower is a good dude too, he wanted one of my Outer Banks last year, but the other guy sexed the other one he wanted to pair my female with very incorrectly..LOL!

 

[Vinman]

I wanted to get some off Alec Estabrooks thoes were caught off a island off SC. If you have any contact info I like to get intouch with him I like to get some albinos from that stock I know those did not come from a relesed hobby stock .

 

[Ryan Beatty]

Here are some of those evul CORN hybrids. These are natural hybrids native to my snake building. :wavey:

 

[screamindemon17]

Thase r wicked looking

 

[Carpe Serpentis]

I see percentages listed on those evul hybrids Beatty eyes, but... are these first generations, sibling crosses, etc? I need more data evul hybridizer.

 

[Carpe Serpentis]

I guess the simplest reason to the question originally posted...Hybrids are so freaking cool looking.

 

[starsevol]

I guess the simplest reason to the question originally posted...Hybrids are so freaking cool looking.

Your opinion.
Not mine.

 

[Carpe Serpentis]

Your opinion.
Not mine.

And, you know that famous saying about opinions?

“Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation.”
― Oscar Wilde

The Road Not Taken --Robert Frost
I personally look at hybridizing like this....
TWO roads diverged in a yellow wood,
And sorry I could not travel both
And be one traveler, long I stood
And looked down one as far as I could
To where it bent in the undergrowth;

Then took the other, as just as fair,
And having perhaps the better claim,
Because it was grassy and wanted wear;
Though as for that the passing there
Had worn them really about the same,

And both that morning equally lay
In leaves no step had trodden black.
Oh, I kept the first for another day!
Yet knowing how way leads on to way,
I doubted if I should ever come back.

I shall be telling this with a sigh
Somewhere ages and ages hence:
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I—
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference.

I will always strive to live my own life. My life will not be a quotation nor will I walk the same path simply or the sake of walking a familiar path.

 

[starsevol]

I guess the simplest reason to the question originally posted...Hybrids are so freaking cool looking.

You stated your opinion as a fact. It is not a fact. It is an opinion. One that I don't share.

The colors are pretty enough, but they don't look like anything they are supposed to. You like it. Many don't. THAT is the fact, not that they "are so freaking cool looking".

Your endless babble and poetic ramblings won't change a thing.

 

[Carpe Serpentis]

You stated your opinion as a fact. It is not a fact. It is an opinion. One that I don't share.

The colors are pretty enough, but they don't look like anything they are supposed to. You like it. Many don't. THAT is the fact, not that they "are so freaking cool looking".

Your endless babble and poetic ramblings won't change a thing.

Opinions are not facts and that is a fact no matter how they are stated. With that said, "Your endless babble and poetic ramblings won't change a thing," statement is also written in the same manner as my opinion. You are stating that my babbling and poetic ramblings won't change anything as a fact.
Your statement however is not a fact. You can't know how everyone will react, change, or grow as a result of their interaction with others. So, this statement is an opinion and not based on any fact.

Now, my statement, "I guess the simplest reason to the question originally posted...Hybrids are so freaking cool looking." Now, my statement is understood to be personal or subjective as most consider it common knowledge that art or beauty in general is subjective or in the eyes of the beholder.
Now, if you want to toss around facts.... the facts are, "A species is often defined as a group of individuals that actually or potentially interbreed in nature. In this sense, a species is the biggest gene pool possible under natural conditions.There are lots of other places where the boundary of a species is blurred. It’s not so surprising that these blurry places exist—after all, the idea of a species is something that we humans invented for our own convenience!" http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=1487976

I'll let you mull over those facts, but in the end... realize that your opinion and mine as well have no real power over those facts. The facts will remain facts and our opinions will still remain our opinions. Now, if you wish to see how others outside of the snake community see beauty as it is related to snakes and hybrids thereof you could conduct ... a meta-analysis to determine if one group saw hybrids are more beautiful than pure species in a very real and logical way. My guess, and this is a guess, is that you would find that a great many people outside of the realm of snake politics would chose the snake hybrids as being more beautiful if a double blind study was done whereby the participants were not told that these snakes were hybrids and these were not. Now, if that were true, it would mean that your opinion that hybrids are not beautiful might be colored by the internal politics of the snake community/ies. that you frequent. Food for thought, but how many people with prejudices actually ever examine those prejudices with any real introspection? My personal thoughts on the matter is that perhaps if we all did this there wouldn't be as much racism, sexism, homophobia, or even the irrational fear of hybrids.....

 

[BloodyBaroness]

realize that your opinion and mine as well have no real power over those facts. The facts will remain facts and our opinions will still remain our opinions.

Do you even listen to yourself?

Opinions are like something that everyone has...

You have yours, Beth has hers, I have mine...and so on so forth.

At this point any worthwhile information or facts is being overshadowed by how much you are coming off as a pretentious child.

Real shame too, there was some interesting stuff in this thread, but it has been so clouded with chest puffing snark, who would waste time trying to read it?