stupid breeders why cant you just leave things be

[starsevol]

I think I got through the first 3 sentences before my mind said "blah blah blah there he goes again".

The thing that really stands out to me, well 2 things actually....first is that from the minute you joined here you seem intent on shoving hybrid garbage down everyone's throat. The fact remains, this is a CORNSNAKE site. I can't help but wonder why you aren't spending your time on a forum which caters to your special hybrid abominations.
The second thing is that I do believe I remember you mentioning that your profile pic is a picture of your son. While his service is commendable, and most parents are proud of their kids, I wonder using his picture is a bit self serving. As if you know you can cause trouble but if people think that profile pic is you, maybe they won't say anything...just seems a bit "off" to me.

And I am not the first nor the only one to notice the abundance of hybrid threads since you joined either.

 

[Carpe Serpentis]

So again, "Your endless babble and poetic ramblings won't change a thing," as stated by Starsevol... that is your opinion and not a fact. As much as you would like your opinion to be fact, it is not one I think a double blind meta-analysis would bear out. The facts are there is no clear definition of a species and there are no clear dividing lines between many so called species. This is why hybrids of corns are found in nature. Cornsnakes simply don't care who we think they should breed with based on our idea of what a species is. We are placing our ideas of what is okay to breed with what when we limit the gene pool for cornsnakes. This simply would not happen in the wild. An irrational fear of something that already happens in nature (hybrids) and has been happening since before we first named cornsnakes a species... is simply beyond my willingness to accept. I personally prefer the broader definition of species as, "A species is often defined as a group of individuals that actually or potentially interbreed in nature. In this sense, a species is the biggest gene pool possible under natural conditions." as defined by Berkeley...http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evosite/evo101/VADefiningSpecies.shtml
By this definition, any snake that can interbreed with another snake and produce viable offspring capable of further interbreeding are classed as one species or group. That is my preferred working definition. With that being said, all hybrids that are infertile are not members of the same species. Those that are fertile are the same species. Note, I did not say same subspecies.

 

[Christen]

Do you even listen to yourself?

Opinions are like something that everyone has...

You have yours, Beth has hers, I have mine...and so on so forth.

At this point any worthwhile information or facts is being overshadowed by how much you are coming off as a pretentious child.

Real shame too, there was some interesting stuff in this thread, but it has been so clouded with chest puffing snark, who would waste time trying to read it?

Somebody rep her for me, PLEASE!!

 

[starsevol]

Do you even listen to yourself?

Opinions are like something that everyone has...

You have yours, Beth has hers, I have mine...and so on so forth.

At this point any worthwhile information or facts is being overshadowed by how much you are coming off as a pretentious child.

Real shame too, there was some interesting stuff in this thread, but it has been so clouded with chest puffing snark, who would waste time trying to read it?

Autumn, you actually got that far? Wow, you do have some intestinal fortitude! I didn't come close. I fell asleep sometime after the third sentence.
And I do tend to agree with you. His posts positively scream pretentious child, among other things.

 

[starsevol]

Somebody rep her for me, PLEASE!!

I tried, but I need to spread it first.

 

[Carpe Serpentis]

Do you even listen to yourself?

Opinions are like something that everyone has...

You have yours, Beth has hers, I have mine...and so on so forth.

At this point any worthwhile information or facts is being overshadowed by how much you are coming off as a pretentious child.

Real shame too, there was some interesting stuff in this thread, but it has been so clouded with chest puffing snark, who would waste time trying to read it?

The question is... do you listen to yourself Bloody B? Seriously, name calling.... i.e. calling someone a pretentious child is really not helping you and if you think calling someone a pretentious child is any different than cussing at them I think you have missed the intended result of cussing at someone. The intention of a hurtful comment, denigratory remark, swearing, etc. is to try and cause psychological or emotional hurt. Your comment is no different than if I were to swear at you and call you inflammatory remarks. I will not stoop so low as to do that. Either try and speak logically to me and defend your point logically or simply discuss your opinion, but do not stoop so low as to use belittling as a tactic to build a case for yourself as it doesn't work nor is it conducive to any meaningful dialogue.

 

[Christen]

Thanks for trying Beth. I just find it a shame that I, someone who actually had the same views as him are starting to not like hybrids because the opinion is being pushed down everyone's throats.

 

[diamondlil]

Hold on a minute. This site is not just a cornsnake site. There's no giant sign saying only people who love pure corns are allowed in. There's discussion of just about every aspect of life in the general chitchat, DYK forum and in the social groups.
As the original subject of this thread is about hybridisation and whether it's acceptable, this is entirely the right place for someone who loves hybrids to nail their colours to the mast.

 

[starsevol]

The question is... do you listen to yourself Bloody B? Seriously, name calling.... i.e. calling someone a pretentious child is really not helping you and if you think calling someone a pretentious child is any different than cussing at them I think you have missed the intended result of cussing at someone. The intention of a hurtful comment, denigratory remark, swearing, etc. is to try and cause psychological or emotional hurt. Your comment is no different than if I were to swear at you and call you inflammatory remarks. I will not stoop so low as to do that. Either try and speak logically to me and defend your point logically or simply discuss your opinion, but do not stoop so low as to use belittling as a tactic to build a case for yourself as it doesn't work nor is it conducive to any meaningful dialogue.

Blahblahblah....sounds like the posts of a pretentous child to me too. Just another example of " Knowing how to use big impressive words does not mean you are informed".

 

[Carpe Serpentis]

Now, I have read all of these posts... and was castigated for not having read them all... when I first came here to this thread (note, that was assumed and not fact), and yet... I find that I can be belittled and called names such as pretentious child. My point being, you don't have to agree with me, but either engage in meaningful and well thought out posts or simply leave it alone. There is no need for belittling anyone because of their opinion or stated facts.

 

[Nanci]

Anyone else want an infraction? Step right up! No more name calling- thank you!!

 

[starsevol]

Hold on a minute. This site is not just a cornsnake site. There's no giant sign saying only people who love pure corns are allowed in. There's discussion of just about every aspect of life in the general chitchat, DYK forum and in the social groups.
As the original subject of this thread is about hybridisation and whether it's acceptable, this is entirely the right place for someone who loves hybrids to nail their colours to the mast.

Yes J9, I agree. But it seems it is all the agenda this one has, all he posts about. He is allowed to do whatever he wants of course, but why he is not more involved in a forum that LOVES and accepts his stuff is beyond me. He isn't about to change minds here, unless like Christen, he wants to turn people off hybrids.
On second thought maybe I should encourage him to post even more!!

 

[Bonkers_Scar2011]

Done Christen

 

[Carpe Serpentis]

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/your-zesty-self/200905/what-we-get-wrong-about-shame

There is a psychology of shame and yes, it does work to get people turned off so to speak. Belittling another or trying to shame another works as a warning to others that might be interested in the subject, that this is taboo. Shaming another or attempting to shame another to control behavior or actions is shameful, but it is not what I am attempting to do.

 

[starsevol]

Natural intergrades, while never as beautiful as the their origins are one thing.

Taking 2 animals of different species from entirely different areas that never ever would have run across each other in the wild, tricking them into mating when they wouldn't choose to by switching females, breeding 2 species where one is food for the other.....that's entirely different.

My opinion of that will never ever change.

 

[Christen]

Done Christen

Thank you!!

 

[Bonkers_Scar2011]

There is a psychology of shame and yes, it does work to get people turned off so to speak. Belittling another or trying to shame another works as a warning to others that might be interested in the subject, that this is taboo. Shaming another or attempting to shame another to control behavior or actions is shameful, but it is not what I am attempting to do.

Well then chill a little. I have no problems with hybrids, I am not a supporter nor am I against the idea of breeding more hybrids. BUT you have certainly put me off this thread and I LOVE learning all about snakes in general.

I do not think that people want to belittle you, it's your tone of voice so to speak.

Your tone of voice may say more than the actual words you use. This important feature of everyday speech is so powerful that it can actually propel you to successful heights or keep you stuck in a lowly position.

 

[Carpe Serpentis]

Natural intergrades, while never as beautiful as the their origins are one thing.

Taking 2 animals of different species from entirely different areas that never ever would have run across each other in the wild, tricking them into mating when they wouldn't choose to by switching females, breeding 2 species where one is food for the other.....that's entirely different.

My opinion of that will never ever change.

Your first point... natural intergrades... I accept that you don't think they are as beautiful as the originals... (however you define originals :uhoh
I think you may be saying that hybrids found in the wild are okay, but not something you would personally like. I get that, but its opinion and holds as much weight as an opposite opinion at best.

Now, your 2nd argument that different species from entirely different areas.... I understand what you are saying here as well, but again.... realize that is also probably more opinion than you realize as well. Note, I said probably. Let me explain. Boundaries of species/localities etc. overlap. Hybrids occur wherever perceived boundaries are and there is compatibility. Now, if we accept that fact... then we must realize that gene flow between fertile hybrids are assimilated back into the water or pool of genetic diversity of that local/species. etc. What this means is that there is a constant influx of genetic diversity from similar species/locals/etc. where there is the ability to do so. Now, if we take this a step further and realize that this influx at one end of the breeding ground or barrier from a hybrid can eventually find its way to the other side or barrier of the breeding grounds and breed outwards to another species/local that it would never have had access to physically. This can occur as long as their is no physical barrier which means that a snakes genetics from a location in Canada could eventually find its way down to Peru. Yes, it would be serially diluted over time and distance with each mating, but it could very well happen. This is what I am looking at when I see a hybrid or hybrid possibility. Saying the genes from a snake found in Canada could not naturally migrate down to Peru over time is not true. It could and most certainly has. This is where evolution comes into play and man defines it as he would see fit to describe complex interactions between different groups or populations of groups over time and how they change.... the terms we use and the definitions we use to describe these processes or interactions are largely subjective. The fact of evolution however is not an opinion. It is a fact as much as any other theory of science is a fact. This means, that evolution is as much a fact as gravity is a fact. Will species receive genes from any source/other species etc. over time? The answer is yes, so long as the two remain compatible enough to produce fertile offspring and no real barrier is present. I look at hybrids as constantly being a source of genetic influence in species and the only true species as being those that are incapable of producing fertile offspring. That is my opinion, but it is as much a fact as anyone else's definition of species as all definitions of species are man made.



http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/test-case/201106/shame-you-do-you-use-shame-control-others

 

[Carpe Serpentis]

Well then chill a little. I have no problems with hybrids, I am not a supporter nor am I against the idea of breeding more hybrids. BUT you have certainly put me off this thread and I LOVE learning all about snakes in general.

I do not think that people want to belittle you, it's your tone of voice so to speak.

Blaming the victim. http://crcvc.ca/docs/victim_blaming.pdf

That is all I have to say about that.

 

[starsevol]

Your first point... natural intergrades... I accept that you don't think they are as beautiful as the originals... (however you define originals :uhoh
I think you may be saying that hybrids found in the wild are okay, but not something you would personally like. I get that, but its opinion and holds as much weight as an opposite opinion at best.

Now, your 2nd argument that different species from entirely different areas.... I understand what you are saying here as well, but again.... realize that is also probably more opinion than you realize as well. Note, I said probably. Let me explain. Boundaries of species/localities etc. overlap. Hybrids occur wherever perceived boundaries are and there is compatibility. Now, if we accept that fact... then we must realize that gene flow between fertile hybrids are assimilated back into the water or pool of genetic diversity of that local/species. etc. What this means is that there is a constant influx of genetic diversity from similar species/locals/etc. where there is the ability to do so. Now, if we take this a step further and realize that this influx at one end of the breeding ground or barrier from a hybrid can eventually find its way to the other side or barrier of the breeding grounds and breed outwards to another species/local that it would never have had access to physically. This can occur as long as their is no physical barrier which means that a snakes genetics from a location in Canada could eventually find its way down to Peru. Yes, it would be serially diluted over time and distance with each mating, but it could very well happen. This is what I am looking at when I see a hybrid or hybrid possibility. Saying the genes from a snake found in Canada could not naturally migrate down to Peru over time is not true. It could and most certainly has. This is where evolution comes into play and man defines it as he would see fit to describe complex interactions between different groups or populations of groups over time and how they change.... the terms we use and the definitions we use to describe these processes or interactions are largely subjective. The fact of evolution however is not an opinion. It is a fact as much as any other theory of science is a fact. This means, that evolution is as much a fact as gravity is a fact. Will species receive genes from any source/other species etc. over time? The answer is yes, so long as the two remain compatible enough to produce fertile offspring and no real barrier is present. I look at hybrids as constantly being a source of genetic influence in species and the only true species as being those that are incapable of producing fertile offspring. That is my opinion, but it is as much a fact as anyone else's definition of species as all definitions of species are man made.



http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/test-case/201106/shame-you-do-you-use-shame-control-others

Seems to me if the breeder has to trick a snake into breeding, maybe the snakes knows better than the breeder what should be, and what shouldn't......