stupid breeders why cant you just leave things be

[starsevol]

No more lumpy open pollinated tomatoes for you Sweetie.
But hey, are hybrid snakes organic? What about non-hybrid snakes, are they organic? Are any snakes GMO's? Has a snake ever been patented? Monsanto might be missing the boat on this one.

Dave sweetie, open pollinated tomatos are heirlooms, most varieties over 100 years old and many much older.
The tomatoes carried by Lowes, Home Depot etc are HYBRIDS! I won't touch em with a 10 foot pole!!

And kudos to you for culling the pure looking babies. I know it had to be hard to do, but very responsible. Wish every single hybrid breeder out there had your ethics.

 

[Bonkers_Scar2011]

I don't have a problem with your ideas and fascination with hybrids.

But you don't let others have an opinion, I think your ten times worse and defo no victim, cause you keep arguing with them cause they don't agree with you. How many people have said they have a problem with the blah-blah-blah rather than the actual issue about breeding hybrids? Think more than the other way round.

 

[Carpe Serpentis]

Human beings are considered the same species Homo sapiens. There are no real races of humans as we can all interbreed and have fertile young. I propose that same definition is true for snakes that can breed and produce fertile young.
You can agree with me or not, but in the end the concept of species as defined by anyone is simply a man made definition.... so pick your sides.
"The biological species concept defines a species as members of populations that actually or potentially interbreed in nature, not according to similarity of appearance. Although appearance is helpful in identifying species, it does not define species."http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evosite/evo101/VA1BioSpeciesConcept.shtml

 

[Carpe Serpentis]

I don't have a problem with your ideas and fascination with hybrids.

But you don't let others have an opinion, I think your ten times worse and defo no victim, cause you keep arguing with them cause they don't agree with you. How many people have said they have a problem with the blah-blah-blah rather than the actual issue about breeding hybrids? Think more than the other way round.

So, I'm to understand that voicing my opinion makes it okay to belittle me? If you have a problem or issue with discussing an issue or debating an issue or even with me... there is no need to belittle me. Simply put, argue your point well, leave it alone, but do not resort to name calling or defending those that do. Thats just bully tactics and it is not effective in promoting any meaningful dialogue.
I like hybrids:wavey:

 

[starsevol]

I understand, it is my opinion. I concede that. Can you see why a great many hybridizers would keep silent? Shaming someone into silence by belittling them or their efforts is beneath me personally. Blaming the victim of such abuse... is seriously beneath me. You don't have to agree with me, but if your going to debate with me I'd like a modicum of decency and respect to be shared between us before things get out of hand and escalate. I will try and do my best to show that same respect and decency back. Is that too much to ask?

Well yeah....kinda. And I am not debating, not really.

You might be a delightful guy, who knows. But it is impossible for me to wrap my head around your views when you see hybridization as the hobby evolving and I see it as the hobby crumbling.

 

[DMong]

I think people are just getting tired of your constant posting and desperately trying to get your point across. We all get your idea, after your first post. No need for all of this. Don't think the hybrid thing is the big issue anymore, I think it's your posting. You should really agree to disagree with some people and move on to loving your hybrids but without talking about it sooooooooooo much!
Don

Yeah, him "constant posting" would be the understatement of the century!!

My entire email list is clogged up with several feet of his endless hybrid philosophy. I wish he had a different army mission to address, or philosophy book to work on instead of this dead horse thread.... I mean for chrissakes! when is enough....ENOUGH!!?? :headbang: :headbang: :headbang:

 

[Carpe Serpentis]

It is a faulty argument that I don't let others have their own opinions.

Everyone has their own opinion and no one can take that from them. You own your opinion. No one else owns that. No one makes you belittle someone or call them stupid, charlie brown, or any other disparaging remarks. You do that stuff on your own and it speaks volumes about your character and your state of mind at that particular moment in time. You own your own actions, speech, and even your own inactions and silence. You own all of these things.

 

[Vinman]

This is just way out of hand . Bottom line it weather you like them or not Hybrids are here to stay. There is a right way and a wrong way to make hybrids. The wrong way is what screwed up the whole hobby by tainting good bloodlines. It is so hard to find pure animals these days. If anybody does not realize this then your not a true hobbyist. If you are one of the people that say I don't care if they are pure so long as they look pure you have no business in the hobby. Most of these animals you can not get from their country of origin. They have been closed down for many years with out much chances of opening back up again. People like myself want to work with a pure animal then we should have that right to do so . By tainting then lines it makes it impossible to let people like myself to have that option. That is the challenge in breeding pure stock. Once it is tainted there goes the challenge of trying breed a species..

The whole purpose of making hybrids is to create something different . Not to back breed it into a species so no one can tell if it is pure or not. That is a waste of time and ruins the hobby. If you don't care then like I said before you have no business breeding animals. The problem lies with not understanding and having the respect of a species. That was the whole purpose of the hobby to keep pure animals in the pet trade with out having to ravage natural populations and be able to obtain a species once you could no longer get them from where they occur in nature once they were protected or country's closed down the importation . To say I don't care if people back breed and ruin lines is totally selfish. I'm not saying you don't do hybrids but have some respect for the species and the people that want to work with them by taking the responsibility in working with hybrids the right way so not to taint pure stocks. This way eveybody get to enjoy the hobby.

 

[Susan]

The actual debate ended a long time ago. Unfortunately, one sole is still up on the podium making his argument to an empty room and all the cleaning staff wants is for him to finish his closing statement and go about with the rest of his life so they can do the same.

 

[DMong]

Well yeah....kinda. And I am not debating, not really.

You might be a delightful guy, who knows. But it is impossible for me to wrap my head around your views when you see hybridization as the hobby evolving and I see it as the hobby crumbling.

 

[Carpe Serpentis]

Well yeah....kinda. And I am not debating, not really.

You might be a delightful guy, who knows. But it is impossible for me to wrap my head around your views when you see hybridization as the hobby evolving and I see it as the hobby crumbling.

If you are trying to wrap your head around my views then that speaks volumes for you. I didn't say you had to agree with my views.
I would say that my personal feeling is that this is a very ethnocentric (for lack of a better word) atmosphere in here. You can have open and civil discussions and dialogue about a subject. The culture of the hybridizer could be largely suppressed with such negative comments. Regardless, isn't there enough room to have hybridizers, line-breeders, wild purists, and the like? Aren't they all capable of keeping records and if so, aren't they all equally fallible in their ability to keep those records straight?


Ethnocentrism is judging another culture solely by the values and standards of one's own culture. The ethnocentric individual will judge other groups relative to his or her own particular ethnic group or culture, especially with concern to language, behavior, customs, and religion. These ethnic distinctions and subdivisions serve to define each ethnicity's unique cultural identity. Ethnocentrism may be overt or subtle, and while it is considered a natural proclivity of human psychology, it has developed a generally negative connotation.

 

[starsevol]

The actual debate ended a long time ago. Unfortunately, one sole is still up on the podium making his argument to an empty room and all the cleaning staff wants is for him to finish his closing statement and go about with the rest of his life so they can do the same.

Susan, NOW I see the end of the Carol Burnett show. Remember that cartoon of her in the maid's outfit cleaning up when the show was finished?

Dayum I am old!

 

[mattsnake]

I don't think hybrids occur in nature very often if at all. Maybe very rarely. And the fact that natural hybrids may come into being does not justify these massive hybrid breedings of corn x random colubrid. These hybrid breedings are very wide spread and reading these threads make it seem like it is a worldwide epidemic. I think corn hybrids have gotten totally out of control and everything is going into a terrible colubrid mush.

 

[Bonkers_Scar2011]

No, voicing your opinion is absolutely 100% fine, we all do it!

BUT

posting every ten seconds and then the same stuff over and over again? We all understood your passion for hybrids in your very FIRST post on here. There was no need for the other 100.000.

 

[starsevol]

If you are trying to wrap your head around my views then that speaks volumes for you. I didn't say you had to agree with my views.
I would say that my personal feeling is that this is a very ethnocentric (for lack of a better word) atmosphere in here. You can have open and civil discussions and dialogue about a subject. The culture of the hybridizer could be largely suppressed with such negative comments. Regardless, isn't there enough room to have hybridizers, line-breeders, wild purists, and the like? Aren't they all capable of keeping records and if so, aren't they all equally fallible in their ability to keep those records straight?


Ethnocentrism is judging another culture solely by the values and standards of one's own culture. The ethnocentric individual will judge other groups relative to his or her own particular ethnic group or culture, especially with concern to language, behavior, customs, and religion. These ethnic distinctions and subdivisions serve to define each ethnicity's unique cultural identity. Ethnocentrism may be overt or subtle, and while it is considered a natural proclivity of human psychology, it has developed a generally negative connotation.

Sorry, nope. No room at the inn. Unless a hybridizer has Dave's ethics and destroys anything that looks pure all I can see is a horde intent on destroying the hobby.

 

[DMong]

This is just way out of hand . Bottom line it weather you like them or not Hybrids are here to stay. There is a right way and a wrong way to make hybrids. The wrong way is what screwed up the whole hobby by tainting good bloodlines. It is so hard to find pure animals these days. If anybody does not realize this then your not a true hobbyist. If you are one of the people that say I don't care if they are pure so long as they look pure you have no business in the hobby. Most of these animals you can not get from their country of origin. They have been closed down for many years with out much chances of opening back up again. People like myself want to work with a pure animal then we should have that right to do so . By tainting then lines it makes it impossible to let people like myself to have that option. That is the challenge in breeding pure stock. Once it is tainted there goes the challenge of trying breed a species..

The whole purpose of making hybrids is to create something different . Not to back breed it into a species so no one can tell if it is pure or not. That is a waste of time and ruins the hobby. If you don't care then like I said before you have no business breeding animals. The problem lies with not understanding and having the respect of a species. That was the whole purpose of the hobby to keep pure animals in the pet trade with out having to ravage natural populations and be able to obtain a species once you could no longer get them from where they occur in nature once they were protected or country's closed down the importation . To say I don't care if people back breed and ruin lines is totally selfish. I'm not saying you don't do hybrids but have some respect for the species and the people that want to work with them by taking the responsibility in working with hybrids the right way so not to taint pure stocks. This way eveybodt get to enjoy the hobby.

Well said Vinman!.........Don Soderberg and I were just talking about those very same issues. It's absolutely SPOT-ON!, and I could not agree more.


~Doug

 

[Carpe Serpentis]

Again, I believe that there is plenty of room for purists, hybridizers, line-breeders, etc. The real issue to me, seems to be that records have not been kept properly. Take ownership of your hybrids, pure specimens, line-breed specimens, etc. Take good notes. Make pedigrees for your snakes and share the knowledge and there should be no problem. To be honest, I hear the grumbling about how impure snakes, hybrids, etc. have infiltrated blood lines. I get that, but that is no ones fault except for those that let it happen. One should expect that if something is important to you that you will take measures to ensure that you get what you expect. This means, if you like hybrids.... enquiring from other hybridizers and getting as much detail as you can, but not filling in that detail with bs either. It is probably better to leave it as an unknown then to make a mistake.
Purists, if you kept records and only introduced snakes with equally kept good records... there again would be no problem. I'm beginning to think that the snake hobby as some of the most unethical people I have ever met where mislabeling specimens is done on purpose simply to make a quick buck as you have something new and improved?
Seriously, this grieves me, but if that is the case then it can be changed. If it is not the case... then there is no issue. People are ethical and honest and only deal with others that are ethical and honest.

 

[Nanci]

Sorry, nope. No room at the inn. Unless a hybridizer has Dave's ethics and destroys anything that looks pure all I can see is a horde intent on destroying the hobby.

Ethics? Creating lives so you can, God-like, choose which shall live and which shall die, for YOUR sole enjoyment? Sick sick sick.

 

[Bonkers_Scar2011]

And as he says himself, AGAIN

Again, I believe that there is plenty of room for purists, hybridizers, line-breeders, etc. The real issue to me, seems to be that records have not been kept properly. Take ownership of your hybrids, pure specimens, line-breed specimens, etc. Take good notes. Make pedigrees for your snakes and share the knowledge and there should be no problem. To be honest, I hear the grumbling about how impure snakes, hybrids, etc. have infiltrated blood lines. I get that, but that is no ones fault except for those that let it happen. One should expect that if something is important to you that you will take measures to ensure that you get what you expect. This means, if you like hybrids.... enquiring from other hybridizers and getting as much detail as you can, but not filling in that detail with bs either. It is probably better to leave it as an unknown then to make a mistake.
Purists, if you kept records and only introduced snakes with equally kept good records... there again would be no problem. I'm beginning to think that the snake hobby as some of the most unethical people I have ever met where mislabeling specimens is done on purpose simply to make a quick buck as you have something new and improved?
Seriously, this grieves me, but if that is the case then it can be changed. If it is not the case... then there is no issue. People are ethical and honest and only deal with others that are ethical and honest.

Good Night peeps, happy discussing but I desperately need my beauty sleep haha

 

[SnakeAround]

Vinman and starsevol, I think it is quite rude to say that people that do not care (a lot) about their animals being pure should not have a place in the hobby. And that other people's goals are to have pure species in the hobby is true, that does not mean that is the only right goal. Your idea of wrong and right is an opinion based on your values. That is fine but that does not mean other peoples values should not have a place. I still do not see why those who are so eager to have pure species, are so worried about stained lines, whilst they also state they know where to get pure animals. As long as people who care less do not go out to steal pure animals and stain them, what is the problem????? Why are purists dictating what others in the hobby should have as goals and what their values should be all the time? It is a hobby in which each of us is free to choose a goal, whether purists like it or not. Of course people like Carpe and me will go on defending our selves against this. But do we tell purists that hey have no place in the hobby? Not seen that happening..... and talking about repeating opinions and shoving opinions down other peoples throaths...I think I have seen purists show up in threads about hybrids more than once to state their opinion about it without being asked to... why don't you guys just avoid hybrid threads?

And Nanci that does bother me too!