• Hello!

    Either you have not registered on this site yet, or you are registered but have not logged in. In either case, you will not be able to use the full functionality of this site until you have registered, and then logged in after your registration has been approved.

    Registration is FREE, so please register so you can participate instead of remaining a lurker....

    Please be certain that the location field is correctly filled out when you register. All registrations that appear to be bogus will be rejected. Which means that if your location field does NOT match the actual location of your registration IP address, then your registration will be rejected.

    Sorry about the strictness of this requirement, but it is necessary to block spammers and scammers at the door as much as possible.

Why I Hate Hybrids - Controversial

AWWWWW!!!! I leave for 8 hours to get some sleep and I have to read a farging novel!!! That ain't right! Gawd! When I catch back up I might have something more constructive to say.........
 
DeadIrishD said:
how can you trick a snake thats prone to eat another snake tricked into breeding? it reminds me of preying mantids, if they dont wanna mate belive me the female will kill the male.
Click to expand...
Kingsnakes will not only eat corns, they will eat other kingsnakes too. Not always, maybe not "often" but they do eat other kings. Given the reaction my two kingsnakes have to movement, I'm still wondering if I will have to "trick" them to breed each other. :grin01:

Female mantids will eat the male WHILE they are breeding. :eatpointe
 
Okay, I'm only to like post #30 here and I'm starting to get nostalgic for some simple logic from back in "the day". You know, back when a cornsnake was only defined as such if it were Elaphe guttata, and the separating factor was if it were an eastern corn (E. g. guttata) or a great plains rat (E. g. emoryi) but in both cases was still considered a corn because they were the same species, just differing subspecies. When we think about it, then we'd also have to add intermountain rats, rosy rats, mexican corns, and kisatchies to the list of "DO NOT CROSS BREED". LOL! All any of these snakes differ from one another is subspecies (E. g. intermountan, E. g. rosacea, E. g. meahllmorum, and E. g. slowinskii respectively) But there are ever-changing taxonomic classifications, and I believe (though I am not 100% certain on this one) that emoryi, guttata, and slowinskii have diverged into seperate species basically making it: Pantherophis guttatus (with subspecies P. g. guttatus, and P. g. rosaceas), Pantherophis slowinskii, and Pantherophis emoryi (with subspecies P. e. emoryi, P. e. meahllmorum, and P. e. intermountanus).

My question now is this: How did we go from cornsnakes that have 6 subspecies, to corns that have only 2, with the other 4 being seperated into 2 new species? Was there really that much of a difference to begin with and we just didn't see it?? With the exception of the intermountain rat, the others have natural ranges that cross over each other, so why didn't we just break off the intermountains into their own species, and leave the other 5 alone??
 
Gary...

You forgot the Mason's and their Temples of Doom...yeah, yeah...they first let Corns and Kings intermingle !!


;)
 
Now that I'm caught back up...... Which part are we actually discussing now?? The breeding itself, what makes a hybrid, the filthy irishmen??? I think that I'm lost more than I was back on post #35. LMAO!!!!
 
(sillymode)
It's a known fact there's a society of the five wealthiest people in the world, called the Pentaverate, who run everything and meet three times a year at a secret country mansion in Colorado, known as "The Meadows."
Click to expand...
Ooooh... do they do tours like Glen Eyrie does? ;) I tried getting the people at Cheyenne Mountain to let me see the Stargate, but they denied it even existed. ;)

(end sillymode)
My question now is this: How did we go from cornsnakes that have 6 subspecies, to corns that have only 2, with the other 4 being seperated into 2 new species?
Click to expand...

Genetic testing. Apparently there were enough genetic differences to cause scientists to label them as separate species.

-Kat
 
E. g. guttata said:
My question now is this: How did we go from cornsnakes that have 6 subspecies, to corns that have only 2, with the other 4 being seperated into 2 new species? Was there really that much of a difference to begin with and we just didn't see it?? With the exception of the intermountain rat, the others have natural ranges that cross over each other, so why didn't we just break off the intermountains into their own species, and leave the other 5 alone??
Click to expand...
I think it helps to take taxonomy for what it really is. It is not an exacting "this thing is in this category for all time" but a way to understand how different living things are related. (It is also not a moral compass that is meant to say that one animal should or should not breed with another.)

Take a family tree. Mr Smith and Mr Johnson are "not related" because they don't know of any relatives between them. However, if you draw the family tree backwards far enough, you will find that they do in fact have at least one ancestor in common. So are they related or are they not related? The answer depends on "how related" you mean?

The point of taxonomy is the same thing, but on a much grander scale. The idea nowadays is that all living things do have common ancestors somewhere. Classifying by species (genus, family, order, etc) is a way to describe "how related" any living things are to each other, based on (for one) how far back any common ancestors are expected to be found. Those classes are like trunk, branch, twig, etc. on the family tree.

One of the "dividing lines" used to say they are in the same "species" is whether or not they would belong to the same "breeding group." But of course this is also an arbitrary line. Do corns in Dade county Florida interbreed with corns in New Jersey? Not directly, but indirectly they do.

Since the tree is always growing, the classification has to be adjusted here and there to reflect the current understanding of how things are related. If you were able to take a time machine and go back and build a perfect family tree for all living things 100 million years ago, that tree wouldn't look like a perfect family tree from today. There would be new branches, some branches would have stopped growing, some branches would have split into two or more, and in some places two branches would have merged into one.

One of the guidelines used in determining whether two things are from the same breeding group or gene pool is if there are any natural barriers. The reason is that if you took direct siblings of cornsnakes and isolated them into two different environments where the two halves couldn't interbreed, they would eventually end up diverging, to the point where they could be classified as "different species" even though both groups originated from the same two ancestors. But at what time do you arbitrarily decide that they are two different species? There is no "right answer." If taxonomy is taken as if there is supposed to be one, it doesn't work or make much sense. But if you take it for what it's worth, it's a useful tool. :)
 
  • Like
Reactions: Kat
I'm sure most of you know that I do not have a problem with hybrids. I think they are interesting. They are capable of producing some awesome looking specimens. It is a "process" (for lack of a better word) that can cause stronger, hardier specimens. There is a term that no one has mentioned yet. It is hybrid vigor. The definition is: Increased vigor or other superior qualities arising from the crossbreeding of genetically different plants or animals.

I can understand and appreciate it if someone wants a pure collection. That's their right, and I respect that right. I expect the same in return.

I am also a firm believer that ALL hybrids and ALL pure specimens should be labeled honestly and correctly. That goes hand in hand with respect, in my opinion.

I read a comment in this thread about how someone wasn't going to buy snakes from anyone that breeds creamsicles. I think that if you buy from a reputable breeder, then you don't have to go to those extremes. It would be a shame to limit yourself by choosing to distrust all breeders who happen to disagree with you about hybrids. :rolleyes:
 
I think I should reiterate....
I am not a "creamsicle person" due to the emoryi thing, and if I have a choice of 2 smalltime local breeders, one who breeds creamsicles and "others" and one with NO creamsicles...I KNOW who I would buy from and who I would run from.
But in the case of someone like Kathy Love, that is, how they say, a whole 'nother ball o' wax!
 
starsevol said:
I think I should reiterate....
I am not a "creamsicle person" due to the emoryi thing, and if I have a choice of 2 smalltime local breeders, one who breeds creamsicles and "others" and one with NO creamsicles...I KNOW who I would buy from and who I would run from.
But in the case of someone like Kathy Love, that is, how they say, a whole 'nother ball o' wax!
Click to expand...

Thats a darn shame you'd base your decision that way. A lot of small time breeders take as much pride in what they breed and how they breed them as any of the bigger, well known corn snake breeders. Finding a breeder who's honest in their representation of their animals is the key, and you'll find them from the bottom tier on up to the top, as well as those who have no problems misrepresenting their stock.
 
starsevol said:
I think I should reiterate....
I am not a "creamsicle person" due to the emoryi thing, and if I have a choice of 2 smalltime local breeders, one who breeds creamsicles and "others" and one with NO creamsicles...I KNOW who I would buy from and who I would run from.
But in the case of someone like Kathy Love, that is, how they say, a whole 'nother ball o' wax!
Click to expand...

I had mentioned creamsicle breeders and "red flags" before. Starsevol's reply sums up my position pretty well too. Don S. (SMR) works with creamsicles and emoryis, but I had zero reservations about purchasing from him.

But the whole reputable breeder concept is relevant to more than just hybrid concerns. There are many small-time "phenotype" breeders out there, who don't really care about the genetics much. They may have several kinds of hypos or anerys mixed around in the offspring, but they sell them by look. You bring home an ultra-charcoal, thinking you bought a hypoA-anery to breed with the one you already have, and the ghosts you hoped to produce turn out all normal.

"Caveat Emptor" applies to corn purchasing big time.
 
cka said:
Thats a darn shame you'd base your decision that way. A lot of small time breeders take as much pride in what they breed and how they breed them as any of the bigger, well known corn snake breeders. Finding a breeder who's honest in their representation of their animals is the key, and you'll find them from the bottom tier on up to the top, as well as those who have no problems misrepresenting their stock.
Click to expand...

I know this wasn't directed at me, but since I posted that I shared starsevol's view, I should clarify mine. You are absolutely correct in your defense of small-time breeders. It's up to me to determine if a small breeder is being honest in their representation, and if their answers to my questions satisfy me. If they have satisfied these requirements, I would not hesitate to buy from them. Heck, I hope to be a small-time breeder soon myself, so I wouldn't want to perpetuate any prejudices against them! And I'll be prepared to be held to the same level of scrutiny that I hold the breeders to when I purchase. :)
 
Roy Munson said:
But the whole reputable breeder concept is relevant to more than just hybrid concerns. There are many small-time "phenotype" breeders out there, who don't really care about the genetics much. They may have several kinds of hypos or anerys mixed around in the offspring, but they sell them by look. You bring home an ultra-charcoal, thinking you bought a hypoA-anery to breed with the one you already have, and the ghosts you hoped to produce turn out all normal.

"Caveat Emptor" applies to corn purchasing big time.
Click to expand...

I think that is the whole idea of "reputable breeder". Big or little, it is how honestly they represent their stock. I have seen sellers on the auction site selling phenotypes with poss hets because they got them mixed up or didn't know who fathered a clutch. That would bother me much more than if they happened to also breed hybrids.(I label all my vivs so that I know for sure who is who and my records are straight and I am not near breeding yet) I do like a lot of hybrids but also want to know that what I buy is what I was looking for-pure or otherwise. I am not going to lose sleep over it, but I do ask questions. The more I learn the more questions I ask. If they care about their product and reputation, they will have no problem giving you background info on the snakes you purchase.
my .02 again.
 
I am in RI. The breeder I got Katie from who had a collection of creamsicles and never told me if she was a rootbeer (but she is alot more brown than red) has moved. I don't know where she is and wouldnt go back to her anyway.
The breeders I got Kasey and Calvin from are from out of state, and I do not know their names. I got Kasey and Calvin at shows 9 years ago.
The breeder who gave me Kelsey, and owned the parents of Sniper, Snafu and Sangria has left the state. I dont know where he ended up.

In my position, going to Kathy or Don S. and maybe paying a little more would be worth it to me. Their reputations are solid and their snakes are top notch....the REAL problem I have is with the husband...he seems to think I have "too many" animals.....
 
starsevol said:
I am in RI. The breeder I got Katie from who had a collection of creamsicles and never told me if she was a rootbeer (but she is alot more brown than red) has moved. I don't know where she is and wouldnt go back to her anyway.
The breeders I got Kasey and Calvin from are from out of state, and I do not know their names. I got Kasey and Calvin at shows 9 years ago.
The breeder who gave me Kelsey, and owned the parents of Sniper, Snafu and Sangria has left the state. I dont know where he ended up.

In my position, going to Kathy or Don S. and maybe paying a little more would be worth it to me. Their reputations are solid and their snakes are top notch....the REAL problem I have is with the husband...he seems to think I have "too many" animals.....
Click to expand...

The problem with this line of thinking, however, prohibits us small breeders from gaining reputation, because we're "not as safe". Now, I understand that people would preffer to have a reputable breeder as opposed to one without reputation, but what happens when all the others go out of business and the reputable passes away, you no longer can get your snakes if you wish, and the hobby eventually dies.
 
I guess you dont know RI!!
The only reptile club in the state disbanded last year. We couldnt get more than 5 or 6 people to come to the meetings.
As far as I know, there are no breeders in the entire state...just pet shops.
And Regal Reptiles...a HUGE pet shop...I dont know if they do their own breeding or not the it seems to me that the people there consider corns "junk snakes" because they are inexpensive. They would rather sell alligators...

There are not alot of options where I am. Remember in my first post when I said I got Kasey from a small show? He was the ONLY amel in the place. That show was put on by my now non existant reptile club. Not much has changed except that now, the ONLY reptile show in the state is put on once or twice a year by Regal...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top