Davids Boa Thread...or not!!

[Maligator]

Honestly, from what I know about David, he loves it! The only thing that is bugging him right now, is that he can't put his own 2 cents in. That's probably the hardest part for him. :blowhead:

Wayne

Ah. I don't know David. At all. I read what I see on here and I try to relate, I guess.

 

[vetusvates]

Couldn't have said it better my self.

We as ADULTS should be teachers here, on this forum, as well as in life. This forum is to share and educate. Not chastise those that are a bit annoying or we don't like. In life, as adults, we have choices. One of those choices is to ignore some one we don't like. If I don't like what a thread is about, I have the choice not to post in it, just like every one else. Or I can be childish and post some snide remark to prompt responses. David is 16 and still a child any way you look at it. He has grown over the past year and has done very well to try and change his ways. But certain people could care less and only judge him by his past or the fact he's a kid.

He knows more about the care of reptiles than any kid I've ever known. I would much rather David ask questions here than not at all. He has the heart and passion for this hobby that we as adults should embrace and nourish. His generation are the ones that will be continuing to fight for this hobby and other animals later in life. Banning him for an entire year is too much IMO. Not that my opinion matters much.

I tell this to my kids all the time--You can't like every one and not every one will like you. It's just the way of life. Just ignore the ones you don't like and be good to the ones you do.

What she said.
Thank you, Becky. Could not have said it better myself.
You and Danielle are both making my job easy tonight. And by job I mean my usual tortuous, verbose ramblings.

David could be doing what he is doing...without the forum. Luckily, unlike myself at his age, he has had this forum to foster him, albeit mostly passively.
I had a room full of snakes at 16, few books, and no forum. Hmmm....life is such a process. Wouldn't want to be 16 again, especially this day and age.

And, coming out of a mid-winter funk of a brown-out, I'm certain David has his ups and downs---we've even been privy to one or two. I would hate for him to walk away wounded, with bad feelings about the hobby.

 

[desertanimal]

We as ADULTS should be teachers here, on this forum, as well as in life.

If I wanted to be a teacher 24/7, I'd have become a parent. I don't. I want to be a teacher about certain topics only, and for only part of my day. There's nothing at all wrong with that choice.

But certain people could care less and only judge him by his past or the fact he's a kid.

Certain people do, it's true. But other people, actually I think the people who are participating in this thread, are judging him by things he did in the past couple of days.

Banning him for an entire year is too much IMO. Not that my opinion matters much.

I agree.

Hahaha! Even when he doesn't cry foul or argue, he still gets bullied. He's getting bullied right now and isn't present in the conversation.

We apparently have a very different definition of what bullying is. Expressing your distaste for the way someone handles him or herself is not bullying. He definitely gets bullied and baited, but that is not happening here.

And I really don't care how old he is. I only care how a person acts. I don't hang out with immature 30 year-olds any more readily than I hang out with immature 16-year olds. (I'm actually not age-ist, although I recognize that in earlier posts here I may have sounded so.) And I don't give him or anyone else special dispensation for being young, either. If I feel that I smell something fishy in a thread, I'm going to say so, regardless of whose thread it is, regardless of their age. That's not bullying.

He's being talked about here, that much is certain, but he's not being bullied.

 

[Kokopelli]

Enough... for Pete's sakes, enough. This absurd line of defense people have created for David is ridiculous.

24 friggin' days ago, that's 3-4 weeks folks, he posted his "I has a shiny" thread in which he made some out of place remarks.

I don't know why people have decided to make an example of him but IMHO some users here are:

1- Either feel, on some level, misplaced sympathy for David due to their own experiences at some point of being picked upon

2- Being way over-zealous about forcing education down his throat.

David will be forced to deal with the consequences of his past behavior- which was condescending, rude and immature to the extreme. These things should not be constantly defended. Can he change? sure he can- but do not expect everyone to swallow the "he is a changed man" argument when only 24 days ago he pretty much proved that he has work to do.
To me that thread sounded just like him- people who know him personally... alright. But I thought it was him, it fitted the bill.

Had any single one of you acted like a complete idiot to a whole community for so long- would you really expect the impression to just "fade away"?
Why should this happen for David then?
It is not acting like an adult to defend him- there's a lot of self righteousness bleeding into the tone of some posts here, and I disagree with it.

On the other hand,

I received -13- reps on my comments on " I has shiny" thread- and I was incredibly saddened to see that a post that pretty much forced a human being to look at himself in the mirror in negative light received so many applauds... heck, it's way more than any other post I ever made here.

David indeed has been dealing with the consequence of his actions for a long while, and some people, even when asked, do not take a breathing space and stay clear- the internet, unlike real life, doesn't effectively force a "cool-down" time, as the two arguing parties can pretty much log on whenever they want.
People who feel as though they had enough... stop responding.

Some of the posts here are far too "black or white"... two extremities... Either David's an angel and everyone's picking on him, or that he is some kind of a lunatic-child that needs education to be forced upon.

I don't believe David is a bad kid, but I do believe that just like every single organism on the face of this planet- he would have to reap what he had sowed- he guaranteed himself a hard time by acting as he did- it doesn't take an adult to know that you can't go around patronize people twice your age and then be accepted easily into the community.

Some people will be inclined to give him a second chance- and I salute them. Some will not and I -cannot- blame them, for it is not a demand anyone here has the position to make.

The people who defend him all the time... I would have accepted the constant flow of criticism if he was innocent, but he isn't. Heck, few of these "would be" defenders made revolting comments about others quickly and without basis not so long ago either.

So, to sum things up, as far as I am concerned- David will have to own up to what he had caused. He is not guilt-free, and therefore I cannot demand that everyone forgive him.

To the ones who constantly criticize him... I suggest giving yourself and him a breather... you know, if things happened in your neighborhood... you simply wouldn't go to his apartment..- thus allowing things to chill on both ends.
To constantly enter his threads though is to make sure the conflict will repeat itself... spare yourself the energy waste and frustration. I disagree with the notion that it is our job to be teachers... lead by example... sure, but it is up to said person to decide if he wants to follow or not.

 

[v_various]

Some of the posts here are far too "black or white"... two extremities... Either David's an angel and everyone's picking on him, or that he is some kind of a lunatic-child that needs education to be forced upon.

I've been thinking the same thing. Maybe that's part of the reason for the ban? It has totally polarized this board, in a very bad way. Those who want to mentor/coddle him, and those who think if he's old enough to drive he's old enough to not act like a total butthead.

I mean, it's worse than any political or religious thread I've seen, even the bad ones. Maybe we all need a year to cool down as much as he does :shrugs:

 

[Kokopelli]

In all honesty I disagree with the ban concept on David at the moment.
Had he been deserving of a ban, it should have happened immediately after his misconduct.
This time however, he really wasn't the one who posted, so on what basis should he be punished? Due to a retrospect of something that happened month+ ago and was re-awakened due to someone else?

If you believe a ban is justified, ban him immediately after an act... not like this.

I am not judging those who are in favor of his banning nor those who oppose... I do believe however that a decision from the admins should take effect immediately following the act which warrants the ban. If at the time it was considered unnecessary... than it should not be enacted until such time as he/if he stumbles again.

 

[Jenstar]

Now I'm questioning whether people get annoyed by my threads about my new snakes and other pets I acquire. I do like to show them off, but I like to see what everyone else has got too. It kinda makes me not want to post pics of my pets anymore. I hope if anyone has a problem with me they would just tell me and not talk behind my back.

Sorry for hijacking the thread, but I didn't feel like making a new one.

 

[vetusvates]

Originally Posted by Kokopelli
Some of the posts here are far too "black or white"... two extremities... Either David's an angel and everyone's picking on him, or that he is some kind of a lunatic-child that needs education to be forced upon.

I've been thinking the same thing. Maybe that's part of the reason for the ban? It has totally polarized this board, in a very bad way. Those who want to mentor/coddle him, and those who think if he's old enough to drive he's old enough to not act like a total butthead.

I mean, it's worse than any political or religious thread I've seen, even the bad ones. Maybe we all need a year to cool down as much as he does :shrugs:

I have to disagree with this post script proselytizing.
I am neither black nor white. Nor am I in need of a cool-down.
That is why I twice posted a link for others to see the thread in the administrative/site discussion (sub)forum, where the subject was David's latest questionable behaviour. So people could see both sides of the argument. So people could see that I, in opining for leniency, had examined both sides of the state of affairs.

It is easy to come in and philosophize and pontificate at the end of the football game....on the psyche and dispositions of the opposing crowds in the bleachers. But it is impotent and inconsequential. Which, actually, could apply to my act of defending David, itself.
I am not so captivated by the illusion of my own sanctimonious words that I cannot objectify here, either, as a matter of fact. Thank you very much.

It is not so easy, at all, to empathize with someone very very different than one's self. Even harder to stand up for their right to be different.
Fear and loathing of "the other" is older than language. Older than cave drawings.
Acceptance of "the other" is, relatively speaking, a more modern notion. Evidently more modern/innovative for some than for others.

 

[Kokopelli]

I have to disagree with this post script proselytizing.
I am neither black nor white. Nor am I in need of a cool-down.
That is why I twice posted a link for others to see the thread in the administrative/site discussion (sub)forum, where the subject was David's latest questionable behaviour. So people could see both sides of the argument. So people could see that I, in opining for leniency, had examined both sides of the state of affairs.

It is easy to come in and philosophize and pontificate at the end of the football game....on the motives of the opposing crowds in the bleechers. But it is impotent and inconsequential. Which, actually, could apply to my act of defending David, itself.
I am not so captivated by the illusion of my own sanctimonious words that I cannot objectify here, either, as a matter of fact. Thank you very much.

It is not so easy, at all, to empathize with someone very very different than one's self. Even harder to stand up for their right to be different.
Fear and loathing of "the other" is older than language. Older than cave drawings.
Acceptance of "the other" is, relatively speaking, a more modern notion. Evidently more modern/innovative for some than for others.

We'll have to agree to disagree then- I did not post here sooner because like it or not there's quite the geographic gap.
The polarization of attitudes have been here for a long while now, throughout most if not all of David's posts- not in retrospect.

Eric- there are ways to defend a person. To defend his right to express himself, sure. But I am referring to the people who encourage his behavior while basically saying "don't heed all of those adult idiots"- and I simply can't agree with that notion.

Both sides are guilty- however, as David was the one who is the very cause for the attitude he is receiving, I can't, in good conscience, blame those who decide -not- to forgive him for it.

Your arguments are solid and true, had David been guilt-free. Once he did not respect other people's boundaries I cannot demand that they respect his... not after such a chain of consistencies.

Personally, yes, I believe some people have lost objective perspective here- else I believe things wouldn't have been this emotional. Some responses from both ends were far too personal, extreme and IMHO, distasteful.

A lot of people will have to become more flexible in their concept of who is wrong and who is right... because fact of the matter is, no one here said something that didn't have -some- degree of truth. However, I think -some- people should look at the bigger picture rather than stick to an ideal they cherish and blind themselves to everything else.

 

[vetusvates]

Oh Oren. We are far far more more similar than dissimilar, my friend.
Even the words "agree" and "disagree" are rather...too black and white, at times.
There are many shades of grey in this thread, and I think most posts have been quite wise and civil.

And I'm not proclaiming David's innocence by a longshot.
Just wishing for leniency.
With my poor little humble opinion.

Daing, y'all are keeping me up late. LOL.
Actually, I've got three computers on, trying to figure out how to synchronize iTunes playlists. Lordy, Lordy.

 

[Kokopelli]

Oh Oren. We are far far more more similar than dissimilar, my friend.
Even the words "agree" and "disagree" are rather...too black and white, at times.
There are many shades of grey in this thread, and I think most posts have been quite wise and civil.

And I'm not proclaiming David's innocence by a longshot.
Just wishing for leniency.

Daing, y'all are keeping me up late. LOL.
Actually, I've got three computers on, trying to figure out how to synchronize iTunes playlists. Lordy, Lordy.

That's humanity for you, it would have been awfully boring if everyone thought the same.
I understand your request... I however do believe that one cannot be angry with how people respond to his own negative actions. You can't demand that you will be shown tolerance when you displayed none.

On the personal level I believe I have been quite tolerant... even if harsh at times when I responded to displays of arrogance.
I never complained to the admins, as far as I recall I did so only once ever- and it wasn't David who I wrote about... heck, I ended up criticizing and defending David in the same threads mostly.

I can't ask the same of people who were really hurt though.

 

[Lucille]

leniency

I agree that a lenient approach would be a positive choice since David has been trying to improve himself.

I had made, privately, a suggestion that his forum be returned to him, and that he then be temporarily restricted to it. That would accomplish two things: Those who did not want to read a David post for whatever reason would not have to because they could see that a thread originated in his forum and could skip over it should they choose to do so. (And he of course could not pull threads from general chat because all his threads would be in his forum).

As well, it would be an incentive to him to keep his posts appropriate because essentially if anyone wanted to interact with him they would have to go to his forum.

He's a good kid. I've seen people who were actually out to harm Rich's sites from time to time and no one would say that of him. He's come a long way, in my opinion, and a very bright kid.

 

[Kokopelli]

I agree, as I already stated, on a personal level.
However, aside from encouraging others to do so... I can't make any demands and therefore seek a solution that takes into account the fact that not everyone's willing to embrace said approach.

I for one do not believe David has done anything right now that he should be restricted or banned... he hasn't done anything in that post- it wasn't his doing, so why should he be affected when in truth he was not involved.

I also feel that restricting him in such a way is problematic due to two counts:
1- why should he receive treatment which others may not have enjoyed or will enjoy in the past if they did something wrong?
2- Restricting him puts a "sign" on him... that he is "different", basically, you may end up creating an alienating effect which I don't think should take place.

I don't see any need to change the approach towards David right now, as indeed he wasn't involved in the earlier thread.

He got a chance to see the possible consequences of his actions in this thread- he knows he is on thin ice but off the hook...

JMHO

 

[tricksterpup]

Well I was the one who posted the thread in the discussion section. I never made mention of his name. Never ever stated anything on who it was. But sure enough I got attacked there for attacking him or that I was jealous for not having a medallion or forum here.

I am and have been a mod on other sites. Most forums a mod can have just access to their one section and no more. I just found it annoying that a thread can be moved by a non Global Mod here back and fourth as such. I am not sure what ability that paid subscription has but it really bothered me. Does that person have the ability to moderate me in General CC?

But the defenders of David attacked me there, it was before he was banned but sadly everyone knew who I was talking about, even the Good guys for David. That tells you something of his behavior.

Yes, I have attacked David in the beginning, then I started to ease up on him. As teenagers go, he does take care of his animals and cares for them. I think as he grows, he will be a good member of our hobby and will do some serious good in it. I have praised his behavior in some of his posts.

Then as Oren said, his behavior falls and he starts acting like an ass and is rude to members here who try to guide him. He has some rude and hurtful things and I remind him that reputation is a major factor in our hobby. The way you act and the way you treat people is a major factor in our hobby.

lol and my first reaction to his boa thread was the truth, it was a David Troll thread but not by David himself.

To be honest, I do think a Ban is in order, not a 1 year one but maybe a 1 month - 3 month ban. I do think he needs to look hard at what he has sown in the past. And yes, Rich is putting down a spanking on the kid. As many have stated in 80% of his posts there is some drama following him and his posts. To be honest, if you ran a forum and got that much drama from 1 member what would you do? Keep them around? or Ban them all together?

 

[wstphal]

When I came here only a little over a year ago David was a know it all herp keeper, disrepectful, unable to take and use critisism, and usually made a complete donkey's rear out of himself.

Fast forward a year and I see a boy trying to learn here, in love with a hobby we all are just as passionate about, and IMO someone who has grown a lot. He's 16 and has faults, but who here doesn't? Of any member on this forum hands down he is goaded and provoked the most, and still maintains his tone far more than he did in the past.

I would hope Rich chooses not to ban him for a year and take his improvement into consideration. There are maybe 10 people who disagree, but whatever happened to being mature and using the ignore button? David has never threatened, cursed at, or violated any major site rules. He's guilty of being 16, a little cocky, and sometimes too excited for his own good, but if he's banned what does that ultimately teach him? You learn social norms and etiquette by being social and being corrected, not being stiffled. I hope he gets to hang around and continue to flourish by being guided and not humiliated every time he posts. If I were constanly treated the way he is I would have left, but he has really tried to show people he's serious about changing by staying.

By the time I arrived here, David had apparently started getting better behaved, but even I could see massive improvement in his behavior here. It's not my place to say what should happen, that's up to Rich & I realize it, but I hope it won't be a year's banning!

 

[LBoz]

Does anyone have some aspirin? Rich might need them to get through this thread.

 

[Dinah]

Really everybody can't you all see how ridiculous you are being? In 175 posts, how much everyone hates David is mentioned in at least half of them but only about a handful of times has anyone even mentioned the person who broke into another members account and started things this time. Really the account hacker is the person who was out of line this time not David, Quetzalcoatl is the one everyone should be angry with. FOCUS PEOPLE!!

The idea that a bunch of grown adults cannot let things go and at the very least stop bashing the kid now that he has been sent away and now that he is unable to even defend himself is absolutely ABSURD. Whatever he has done in the past (no matter how rude or buttheaded it may have been) it is in the past, but right now in the present all I see is a bunch of angry spiteful adults picking on a kid who isn't even able to stick up for himself. How can you call yourselves adults when you are behaving just as childish as the child in question? I am not in any way saying David is an angel by a lot of accounts he has been a butthead but the only person who's behavior you can control is your own and a lot of you are doing a really bad job at controlling your own behavior and as a result you are acting just as bad as David is accused of having been.

I will be honest typically speaking I really like this forum, and many of the people who are on it, and as far as I know people here think I am ok as well, but some of the things that people are upset with David about make me wonder if anyone can do anything right here. For example I have heard people complain about him posting look at me posts and bragging about his new animals and such. I just posted a week or two ago all about us getting our snake, and nobody seemed to have a problem with it in fact I got many congratulations so how is it different? How is it ok for me to show off/brag by putting up a thread about my new animal but then it isn't ok if David does it?

It makes me wonder why nobody picked on me for showing off when I posted a pic of Zelda? But then I really already know the answer, it is because I am an adult and already have a clear sense of what is acceptable treatment and if someone had treated me badly about sharing I would have known how to handle myself and I would not have ended up frustrated and angry. In fact I would know exactly when it is appropriate for me to tell you to take a hike. In short nobody is going to mess with me because I know how to stick up for myself appropriately and so as a target I am not as much fun.

I have heard that he doesn't take the advice given to him, well so what? Who cares if he doesn't take our advice, just because someone asks a question that does not obligate the person to do what you suggest. In your real lives if you give advice to someone do they have to then listen to you and do what you advise...NO of course not. Being new to snakes I have received a lot of advice but that does not mean I accepted and did all of the things advised. How could I even? Often times the advice given conflicts with other just as knowledgeable peoples advice.....I am pretty sure Lboz and wade would have me marinate/defrost my mice in my mouth with Tequila as the liquid, where as Nanci also a very knowledgeable person suggested warm water and a cup for thawing purposes. Obviously I was not able to follow everybody's advice in that thread so does that mean I don't accept advice? Remember there is a difference between giving advice and being controlling.

At 16 kids are still learning how to handle themselves that is why it is important to be GOOD EXAMPLES! And if you don't want to be a good example then the least you could do is leave him alone and not antagonize him and let those who have the temperament/desire to be an example do it. I cannot believe for one second that as an adult you cannot figure out some way to not read his threads if they bother you as much as you say they do. So if reading his threads is a choice and you know that he bugs you then why do you read his threads? To me it appears that because David can be difficult he has become the forum punching bag. It seems to me that there is indeed bullying going on in this forum but it does not seem to me that David is the bully. And it is really REALLY pathetic that a bunch of adults don't have anything better to do with their time than bully a kid.

 

[LBoz]

I am pretty sure Lboz and wade would have me marinate/defrost my mice in my mouth with Tequila as the liquid, where as Nanci also a very knowledgeable person suggested warm water and a cup for thawing purposes. Obviously I was not able to follow everybody's advice in that thread so does that mean I don't accept advice?

No. Clearly it just means that you don't accept the PROPER advice!!

I'm out of Rep, so I can't give you any, Dinah, but I couldn't agree more. Who are we to be judge and jury over what David brings into his home? That's up to his mother to decide. As animals go, they could do MUCH worse than being owned by David. And as far as his need for attention, don't we ALL crave acceptance in our endeavors? We might not all go about it in the same way, but the need and desire is there, whether we admit it or not.

 

[Teddy Roosevelt]

No, Dinah, it's because your first snake is quite a bit different than your umpteenth snake, with 3 more coming next month and 5 new lizards and on and on.

But honestly it doesn't really matter anymore. What's done is done. Q is gone and David is still here, albeit in read-only mode.

 

[Dinah]

No, Dinah, it's because your first snake is quite a bit different than your umpteenth snake, with 3 more coming next month and 5 new lizards and on and on.

Well what about Robbie? He has a bunch of snakes, but I am still excited when he posts pics of his new additions. Or Ceduke? I bet that beautiful indigo she just got isn't her first snake either but I was thrilled to see its pics. I just don't understand how on a corn snake board with a ton of people who really like reptiles, how is it inappropriate to post pics of your snakes/reptiles?