What's the weight of your largest '05?

[SnakeAround]

Hey Preit, what's wrong with our teeth?! Mine are great! I even plan to stop my extra insurance for teeth care because I hardly ever have to pay more than the regular checking.....

 

[ecreipeoj]

I didn't know it was a race...I've read it's better to grow them slowly than stuff them all the time to grow them quickly. Walt

And everyone thinks it's cool how fast your corns grow?? From my past reading experience here, power feeding (yes, that's what the above is describing) has never been accepted, To each his own, but I'll keep my corns on a more natural and healthy growth cycle and wait for them to be ready for breeding, not push them to fit MY schedule.
Duff

Plain and simple, according to the experts, it's not a good idea.
Duff

I have seen similar things in writing too by the so called experts, but I am not sure what it is based upon. It is probably an attempt to be politically correct more than anything else. I would like to see some of these kinds of statements backed up with some studies or facts, and not just the opinions of others. The definition of an expert is anybody with more experience than the average person on a particular subject. I think we would all qualify as experts on the best way to raise Corns Snakes and we have a lot of different expert opinions being expressed here. This is a subject that will always have very split opinions on the subject and there is no correct answer. We all have to come to our own conclusions about the way we want to raise our Corns.

I really do not know where statements like this comes from. “Ill keep my Corns on a more natural and healthy growth cycle”. What facts or studies are they basing these statements on? There is very little comparisons we can make to the way we keep our Corns in captivity to the natural conditions they are exposed to in the wild. Why is it more healthy to raise a Corn Snake slowly than rapidly? This statement says that feeding them a minimal amount of food and stretching their growth rate out is better than feeding them and optimum amount. We do not mimic the temperatures that nature places upon Corns in the wild. We do not adjust the temperatures up and down constantly during the normal day cycle or expose them to minimal temperatures for months on end or long extended brumation cycles like they are exposed to in the wild. We don’t cause them to be exposed to hurricanes, flooding or cold snaps which wild Corns have to endure at one time or another.

We keep them at optimum temperatures all year round. There is nothing natural about this at all. How can we compare the growth rate of a wild Corn that does not have optimum temperature conditions to the growth rate of a Corn in captivity that is given optimum temperatures. If Corns raised under these different conditions are grown at the same rate, then the feeding schedule of the captive Corns has to be drastically reduced to match the growth rate in the wild. I think if we give our Corns optimum temperature and housing conditions in captivity, then giving them giving them optimum feeding conditions is not wrong. We are talking about voluntary feeding not force feeding. I personally believe that there are two times when we can not over feed a Corns Snakes, that voluntarily takes the food item. During their first two years of life and while feeding females in the spring when they are getting ready to produced offspring if optimum temperature and housing conditions are provided. .When they get full, they will not take more food, it is the frequency that we can regulate. I think Corns are like people, they are all a little different and we have to learn to recognize the differences and adjust accordingly.

The so called experts are the people who have been breeding and raising snakes for a long period of time. I think that we would all agree that a very obese snake is not a healthy snake. I also know that every breeder that I have ever known has raised snakes up in two year and bred them on a very regular basis. Each and every one of them, and this takes a very regular feeding schedule of an average of 5 days to accomplish. We can throw in a few 3 day feedings and a few 7 day feedings, but they are not going to make it on an average of 7-10 day feedings. Are all of the experts guilty of power feeding or are they feeding there prides and joys, optimally? Most big breeders, which are our experts we are talking about, end up raising more snakes than they can take care of optimally and eventually it takes three years to raise up many of their breeders, but most of them still get a few special projects up to size in two years. I think if they were given a choice, they would like to see all of their snakes fed just a little more.

I respect everybody’s right to express an opinion about the proper way to raise a Corn Snake, but everybody does not have Corns for the same reasons. I am personally in a race to raise my Corns. Time is money, and an extra year of time and feeding, is time and money wasted. Every year, I loose the race with many of my Corns, and I regret it every time. I know I could have put in just a little more effort, which translates to more feedings and my two year olds would be just a little bit bigger. I don’t know how you guys can regulate when your females will ovulate, but mine will do it whether or not I want them to and if they have some more size on them, it is definitely better for them.

I am in a race to produce the first Lava Bloods. Why you may ask? Notoriety?, Perhaps. A feeling of self accomplishment? Perhaps. A Lava Blood in 2006 will mean a great deal to me, in the long run, as far as production, compared to producing some in 2007. I also know that somebody else wants to produces some Lava Bloods in 2006 too. If I do not win the race, I will congratulate the winner and bow gracefully, but I hope I don’t have to live with the knowledge that I could have fed them just a little more and I know it. I am wrong for saying that I am in a RACE to raise my Hets for Lava Bloods to produce a Lava Blood before anybody else. I don’t think so, just like I do not think that if somebody wants to take three years to raise their breeders or if they don’t want to breed there Corn at all and raise them more slowly is wrong either. Not breeding Corns is certainly not natural is it? I do not see any facts that support one side or the other conclusively. None of these methods are natural and therefore, automatically healthier for our Corns. In nature, very few hatchlings survive their first year. The ones that do, I suspect, eat at every opportunity that they can and stay out of sight.

Now look what I have done, I spent a lot of time writing this up, when should have been feeding some of my Corns. I think I will go check my Pied sided Blood and see if he is ready to meet another fuzzy. I find myself giving him food twice as often as any of my others and he just keeps growing! I love the ones that always take the food items off the tongs and land on the other side of the cage in doing so. Here is the link to the other POST I made in the XXXL Corn Snake Thread if anybody is interested.

 

[johnbort2]

Newbies opinion (me) I got my first corns in August of '05. I tend to do a LOT of reading on anything that interests me. I am getting back into the hobby after a long respite from keeping reptiles. Previously, when I kept reptiles, the information wasn't available (no internet) and I gained knowledge through my own observations and learning from those in my Herp Society. I had a red tailed boa and a ball python in the same cage. Fed them at the same time with live rodents. Never had any problems and both of them grew to adulthood. I would never do that today, but, my animals all prospered regardless. Just because some consider this or that powerfeeding doesn't mean he/she is not doing right by their animals. Most of my snakes wouldn't feed unless they are hungry. Do some individuals have different metabolisms through genetics? I don't know, but maybe it's possible?(otherwise every snake of the same type would grow to exactly the same size) I just think there are veriables and there are absolutes. ex. variable things could be feeding frequency and absolute might be something like not keeping colubrids with boas.
I appreciate any input from ANY of you and am always trying to learn better practices, but I hate reading the flaming that goes on in these places sometimes, simply because someone strays from some unwritten guidline. :flames: My opinion....and I'm done. Thank you please drive through and come again :bang:

 

[zwyatt]

My three biggest 05's are all males.

Hatch Date Weight
6/20 32.1g
7/5 36.4g
Unknown (Junish?) 33.5g

It's funny because in the beginning I could have sworn they were hardly growing. Now I feel like I can almost see the changes from week to week. Even in some of my smaller 05's.

 

[Jynx]

Joe, I could not have said that better myself. I applaud you, and hope that everyone in our community takes your words to heart. *cough cough*

I honestly can't believe that some people would extend such a trivial argument when there is obvisouly no harm being done. I put my pants on right leg first... lets start an argument with that as I'm sure some people would say "That's the wrong way to do it!" Am I you? No. Is Dean you? No. Do your methods work for you? Do my methods work for me? Do Dean's methods work for him? Answer to all: yes. Will/does everyone always agree with everyones' methods 100% of the time? Absolutely never, and they never will. The point is that a responsible keeper learns the specific needs of those in his/her charge (even the big breeders), and conforms to that charge's specific needs. The only way to do that in some cases is with trial and error. Dean has gone through trial and error, as have I, and as has anyone who has kept any animal in their entire life. No one gets it right 100% of the time. If it was that easy, what would be the point?

For the record, this is my feeding schedule. It has taken me a few years to come up with this schedule and, through trial and error, I have found it work very well for the developement of my collection. My snakes grow at a normal rate, and do not "spurt" to monster status. This is also just a standard schedule. Changes are made accordingly to fit any specific charges' needs.

small pinks: 1 every 3 days
large pinks: 1 every 4 days
small fuzzies: 1 every 5 days
large fuzzies and hoppers: 1 every 6 days
anything larger: 1 every 7 days (this does not include any adults that are large enough to eat small rats.

And further for the record, remember that younger corns have faster metabolisms and will acheive more growth and development in the first year than any other time in their life. I would rather "over nurture" and have a chubby yearling to slim down than stunt developement due to lack of nutrition.

NOTE: (Just because I know it will cause a snap of some sort) "You" does not mean anyone specifically. It is meant to be a very vague generalization.

 

[Roy Munson]

Joe, I could not have said that better myself. I applaud you, and hope that everyone in our community takes your words to heart.

I applaud Joe's post, and your post too. The schedule you've developed happens to be indistinguishable from the one that I settled on. It works for me too.

 

[Duff]

Ok, so then why is it such a bad thing to house corns together? Some people do it without any problems, but anytime someone posts about it, they get flamed. Seems like a double-standard... Everyone has a right to do things that work for them, as long as it fits with your views (otherwise, it's wrong).

PS. "Your" meant in the general way, not specific to any one person.

 

[Preita]

And further for the record, remember that younger corns have faster metabolisms and will acheive more growth and development in the first year than any other time in their life. I would rather "over nurture" and have a chubby yearling to slim down than stunt developement due to lack of nutrition.

NOTE: (Just because I know it will cause a snap of some sort) "You" does not mean anyone specifically. It is meant to be a very vague generalization.

Here is your :flames:
In reality I feed pinks every 4 days too. I don't really think there is anything wrong with what it, & different things work differently.

Dean-
I still giggle over the image of you cramming food down a hatchling's throat with a Popsicle stick :grin01:

 

[Preita]

Ok, so then why is it such a bad thing to house corns together? Some people do it without any problems, but anytime someone posts about it, they get flamed. Seems like a double-standard... Everyone has a right to do things that work for them, as long as it fits with your views (otherwise, it's wrong).

PS. "Your" meant in the general way, not specific to any one person.

Maybe (& I'm just saying maybe here no definitives) it's because hatchlings along with adults are opportunistic feeders & would gorge themselves of their own accord if allowed. I'm not sure that they would actively seek the company of another snake besides breeding.

Just a thought, don't :flames: me

 

[Jynx]

Ok, so then why is it such a bad thing to house corns together? Some people do it without any problems, but anytime someone posts about it, they get flamed. Seems like a double-standard... Everyone has a right to do things that work for them, as long as it fits with your views (otherwise, it's wrong).

PS. "Your" meant in the general way, not specific to any one person.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion... whether or not it makes an impact is up to the person it was directed to. People will do things the way they see fit, no matter what the subject material or the context. You can either take it (and offensively at that) or leave it.

Flaming is such a bad thing... yet you are so quick to do it eh Duff?

Opinions are like ***holes right? You know the rest...

 

[Roy Munson]

Ok, so then why is it such a bad thing to house corns together? Some people do it without any problems, but anytime someone posts about it, they get flamed. Seems like a double-standard... Everyone has a right to do things that work for them, as long as it fits with your views (otherwise, it's wrong).

PS. "Your" meant in the general way, not specific to any one person.

I don't recall flaming anyone over cohabitation. For years, I kept corns communally, and I've related my experiences with this numerous times. I never personally saw an incident of cannibalism, but I've seen many reliable accounts of it on this board and elsewhere. I did personally witness the reproduction of undersized females, male combat, and what I consider stress related reactions.

This is how I see it. I execute my feeding schedule because I feel it is the healthiest schedule for my snakes. Cohabitation provides zero benefit to the snakes, and is only employed for the convenience of the keeper. My feeding schedule is anything but convenient for me. There is no double-standard here. Practices that benefit the keeper and offer nothing but risk to the snakes should be discouraged. I still haven't seen any evidence to support the idea that my feeding schedule puts any of my snakes at risk. You certainly haven't provided any.

 

[Preita]

Cohabitation provides zero benefit to the snakes, and is only employed for the convenience of the keeper..

This is exactly why I think people get so upset about the whole cohabitation issue. I also think this is why those kind of arguments turn into personal attacts.

 

[Duff]

I still haven't seen any evidence to support the idea that my feeding schedule puts any of my snakes at risk. You certainly haven't provided any.

It is widely accepted as a potential long-term health issue by many long time keepers and experts. At least in the reading and research I've done since getting into this hobby. I've even seen threads on this site completely against the practice. No, I don't have any exact scientific studies, but, by the same token, I have yet to see any exact scientific studies that corns don't have any benefit to safe co-habitation (and just for the record, I'm not defending co-habitation, as I don't think it's worth the risk, just using it to make my point about opinions on this board). The point is, there is potential long-term health issues to such an aggresive feeding schedule. If you have no selfish interest in growing your snakes as fast as possible, then why take the risk? Whatever the underlying reason for wanting quick growth, I fail to see how it could ever be in the interest of the snake, and not based on some keeper oriented desire, which is the same basis used to shoot down co-habitation. Does it really make sense that it could be beneficial for hatchlings to be in an almost constant digestive state? Doesn't it seem logical that their bodies could use time to rest/recover in between feedings?

This is not pointed at any single person, btw, even though I included a partial quote from Roy. It's the practice I don't agree with, not any one person. I feel passionately enough about this issue to speak out even if it does make me a bad guy.

 

[Mary-Beth]

Does it really make sense that it could be beneficial for hatchlings to be in an almost constant digestive state? Doesn't it seem logical that their bodies could use time to rest/recover in between feedings?

I don't claim to know anything about snake physiology, but ponder this... How would a person feel if someone made them wait for their last meal to um... exit before they were allowed to eat again.
:shrugs: Food for thought. (Bad pun intended :grin01: )

 

[Roy Munson]

It is widely accepted as a potential long-term health issue by many long time keepers and experts. At least in the reading and research I've done since getting into this hobby. I've even seen threads on this site completely against the practice. No, I don't have any exact scientific studies, but, by the same token, I have yet to see any exact scientific studies that corns don't have any benefit to safe co-habitation (and just for the record, I'm not defending co-habitation, as I don't think it's worth the risk, just using it to make my point about opinions on this board).

If it's widely accepted, why have I never seen it posted anywhere that there are potential long-term health issues related to the practice of feeding hatchlings on a 3-day schedule when they are on pinkies? I've seen this schedule (or similarly agressive schedules) advocated by the likes of Joe Pierce and Kathy Love. Maybe you can show me the opinions of your dissenting experts. On the other hand, I have seen a large number of photos of hatchlings full to the bursting point from consuming their clutchmates.

The point is, there is potential long-term health issues to such an aggresive feeding schedule. If you have no selfish interest in growing your snakes as fast as possible, then why take the risk? Whatever the underlying reason for wanting quick growth, I fail to see how it could ever be in the interest of the snake, and not based on some keeper oriented desire, which is the same basis used to shoot down co-habitation. Does it really make sense that it could be beneficial for hatchlings to be in an almost constant digestive state? Doesn't it seem logical that their bodies could use time to rest/recover in between feedings?

I'm interested in providing my snakes with the healthiest feeding schedule possible. Mine have thrived on this schedule. Human infants are in an almost constant digestive state, because it is a time of maximum growth. It seems logical to me that most very young animals not only benefit from this state, but require it for optimal health.

This is not pointed at any single person, btw, even though I included a partial quote from Roy. It's the practice I don't agree with, not any one person. I feel passionately enough about this issue to speak out even if it does make me a bad guy.

Well, as long as you keep this impersonal, I don't think voicing your opinion makes you a bad guy. I just don't think you've supported your opinion in any way. My opinion is supported in Kathy Love's corn snake manual, and by other experts (e.g. Joe Pierce). I haven't seen your opinion supported by anything, anywhere. :shrugs:

 

[Duff]

I don't claim to know anything about snake physiology, but ponder this... How would a person feel if someone made them wait for their last meal to um... exit before they were allowed to eat again.
:shrugs: Food for thought. (Bad pun intended :grin01: )

Don't think you can really compare human/snake digestive systems, but since you brought it up, the other side of the coin: How would a person feel if they had to go from 1 gut busting (which is pretty much how snakes eat, I think everyone can agree on that, at least) Thanksgiving/Holiday meal to the next with barely any time to rest in between?

 

[Mary-Beth]

Don't think you can really compare human/snake digestive systems, but since you brought it up, the other side of the coin: How would a person feel if they had to go from 1 gut busting (which is pretty much how snakes eat, I think everyone can agree on that, at least) Thanksgiving/Holiday meal to the next with barely any time to rest in between?

LOL! I think if we had to wait 3 days in between we'd be ready for that next gut busting meal!

 

[Preita]

I don't really know that human digestion can relate to reptile digestion. But most people eat 3 meals a day, that means that we are in a constant state of digestion.

 

[ecreipeoj]

There are some disadvantages to housing Corns together if you ask me, but it can be done safely if certain precautions are taken. Cannibalism does occur in Corns. My Opal lost the battle with this Aztec Lavender. I have always kept my hatchling Corns together after they shed while I was waiting to set them up and offer them their first meals. I lost this Opal due to that practice.

I have also lost Corns to cannibalism due to another practice that I do not do any longer. I would put an entire clutch in a tall bucket and throw in a hand full of pinks to see which ones would eat right away. I lost some hatchlings due to this practice and no longer do it. Some hatchlings would eat one pink and stop and others would eat four or five pinkies for their first meal. Many would eat two or more. Some ate a pink and a sibling! It seems to me that if the opportunity presents itself, baby Corns will take full advantage of power feeding themselves, which would be the case if a nest site was found in the wild.

A disadvantage to housing Corns together is possible entanglement and death if you feed them together. Most people avoid this by separating them during feeding, which would take too much time for me, with a large collection. Advantages of housing Corns together for small collections is reduced housing requirements and generally they are set up in a terrarium for viewing. I have housed snakes together when I bred Burmese, Indian and Ceylonese Pythons. I did not have the room to have individual cages and housed several large female Pythons together, I could not easily separate 16 foot Pythons during feeding, but tried to feed them in different corners. I had entanglement problems due to one finishing first and trying to steal another’s. Talk about fun! Try separating 16 foot Pythons that do not want to let their prey get away.

I think snakes are extremely adaptable or they would not survive in the wild. I think they take full advantage of feeding opportunities when they arrive. Why do baby snakes grow in length when fed more and not just get fat? They grow in relationship to the amount of food they get and their age as well. There is a balance and there is a maximum growth rate compared to age, that can be obtained without going outside normal growth rate if you ask me. When we give them constant perfect housing conditions and even skip hibernation during the first year, optimum growth can be achieved safely. I believe that optimum growth is well with in the normal capabilities of all snakes when the opportunity presents itself and it is not abnormal grow rate, it is normal growth rate, given the circumstances and conditions.

On an opposite note, and perhaps to help offer proof that rapid growth is not harmful, the opposite can be true as well. Snakes are extremely adaptable to the conditions they are faced with. I once bought an Indian Python from a reptile house that was three years old and only three feet long. I almost do not see how this is possible without some obvious visual malnutrition signs, but the snake looked healthy. They had only feed him once ever 14 days and when he reached a point that the food item was only maintaining his size, he stopped growing. He wasn’t kept at high temps so he survived. I kept my male breeding Pythons at a reasonable size with this practice as well. They would get maximum food in take their first two years but after that, it was reduced to something that would only maintain their size and they did not grow any more, but remained healthy. This 3 foot, 3 year old Indian Python was taken home and I started feeding him aggressively. He grew to a normal size of 12'6" and was a perfect breeder for me for many years. For those that do not know, 12-14 feet is a normal adult size for Indian pythons. They do not reach the size of huge Burmese by any means. Ceylonese Pythons are even smaller and I never had a female that reached 11 feet.

I would say that housing Corns of different sizes together is asking for it, especially if you are not feeding them as much as they would like. I can certainly see an adult Corn eating a smaller one, since a hatchling can eat a hatchling, which this photo proves.

 

[cornsnakekid92]

Don't think you can really compare human/snake digestive systems, but since you brought it up, the other side of the coin: How would a person feel if they had to go from 1 gut busting (which is pretty much how snakes eat, I think everyone can agree on that, at least) Thanksgiving/Holiday meal to the next with barely any time to rest in between?

I do not think it is gut busting for them because that is how they eat and they are use to it, and who says that snakes are not suppose to live shorter life's and be fed every four days? Maybe we, The Keepers and just prolonging their life which was not meant to be. Either way can not Be prov-en so that is why each keeper does what works for them, and all Dean was doing was sharing his feeding schedule and that was his opinion and it does not have to be the same as his so why don't you just leave him alone? :shrugs: