What's the weight of your largest '05?

[Preita]

Either way can not Be prov-en so that is why each keeper does what works for them

It can be proven but it would need to be done in a trial with man snakes feed on different schedules through out their lives. This would take I'm imagining about 12 years to figure out if yes aggressively fed snakes have shorter lives.

It's just fine not to agree or practice the exact same husbandry as someone else. But maybe instead of judging it can be more of an information swap?

I would definitely say that 2 pinkies every 3 or 4 days isn't gut busting my biggest 05's are finished digesting & ready for more at that point.

I would think it depends on the gentics of that particular snake. I mean we have naturally overweight people & naturally thin people and that's all gentics, why not have snakes that do the same? & that also brings up the point of breeding snakes together that do that that bigness factor. Growing them quick would probably mean a lot of money to someone.

Just a thought (this is actually pretty intresting)

 

[ecreipeoj]

I would think it depends on the gentics of that particular snake. I mean we have naturally overweight people & naturally thin people and that's all gentics, why not have snakes that do the same?

This has been touched upon in this thread here and there. I have seen many different metabolisms in Corns. There are also many different feeding habits. Some Corns will eat just about anything and will take it off of tongs from the other side of the cage and nearly land on the floor every time. I love Corns with these feeding habits. Others will only eat fresh killed, thawed, live, fuzzies, mice, rats or lizards. I have even had some that would only eat something that was starting to smell! Pains in the ass, all of them, and more than likely they would all perish in the wild.

There are some differences in the digestive rate of some Corns and some other interesting factors. I have had some Corns that would eat like little piggys, but grew slowly compare to other Corns getting fed the same amount. I have also had some Corns that were nearly double the size of other Corns at one year of age, that were getting fed the exact same diet. Their systems metabolized food better or something and the nutrients went directly into growth.

I have also seen evidence from my experience that Corns metabolism rates can change with the availability of food. This makes perfect since, because they would naturally be exposed to robust years and drought years in the wild. If a feeding regiment of one normal sized meal for the size of the snake is fed every 10-14 days, some how a Corns metabolism slows down to match the amount of food availability and they are in a maintain mode. When the food supply increases, their metabolism increases and a growth period follows. When food is readily available for an extended period of time, such as feedings every three days, their metabolism stays in high gear and the go though a very rapid grow period. Their digestive rate seems to almost match the feeding schedule. They have already passed their meals from three days ago and are looking for more. The same seems to be true of a 5 day feeding schedule and so on.

I think some of the negative things that you hear about power feeding, comes from problems that can occur from young females that are bred when they are smaller than optimum. Many females die when they are less than the maximum age we might expect a Corn Snake to live in captivity and this may also be blamed on power feeding, when the cause of death is not really known. They are probably just getting “used up” by breeding them so much and die of something like old age. They are most likely way past the age they would live in the wild and I am sure they do not produce as much offspring in the wild as they do in captivity. Has anybody ever heard of a male Corn dieing at a young age due to power feeding? I have personally never had one die, where this was the suspected reason for the death. 99.9% of the time, the reason for most deaths of Corns is pure speculation anyway. Speculations is also being used to say that power feeding Corns shortens their lives. The facts to support this type of speculation does not exist and they have been taken out of thin air or made up.

I saw a post by somebody earlier, that said something like, we are extending the life of Corns in captivity and it is unnatural for them to be living more than 5 or 6 years or something like that. I couldn’t help but laugh and thought that would really get some responses, but it didn’t because they are probably right. About the only thing that we can really compare about wild conditions and captive bred conditions is during the spring time when the conditions in the wild and in captivity are similar. Other than that, I do not see any real comparison that can be made, especially long term growth rates compared to health. There probably are no long term health studies that could be done on wild populations, because the don’t live that long for many reasons. Trying to compare wild Corns with captive ones, almost seems like trying to compare ancient man with modern man. We used to live 1/3 of the time that modern man does and only 200 years ago, it was about 50% of the time. We have a 1000 and 1 studies today that spout risk factors of early death. Obesity is one. Everybody will agree that an obese snake is not a healthy snake for this reason, but how can a study on humans be related to Snakes? An obese male snake, may live over 20 years. How can power feeding Corns be compared to obesity in humans. It really can not possibly be and pure speculation is being used to come to these conclusions.

 

[cornsnakekid92]

It can be proven but it would need to be done in a trial with man snakes feed on different schedules through out their lives. This would take I'm imagining about 12 years to figure out if yes aggressively fed snakes have shorter lives.

)

i was saying that it can not be proven if they were ment to have lived long OR short, not if power feeding kills them faster. It can not be proven because who made them? If you say god....well you haven't persoonally asked him have you, It can not be proven, to the best of my knowledge.

 

[Preita]

i was saying that it can not be proven if they were ment to have lived long OR short, not if power feeding kills them faster.

Isn't that what the life expectancy is? Granted it can be vague, but I think that they have a natural range of life. It could be proved, the life expectancy of corn snakes could be tracked & studied in the wild, though it would be a tremdous undertaking. Almost everything has an answer

I think some of the negative things that you hear about power feeding, comes from problems that can occur from young females that are bred when they are smaller than optimum. Many females die when they are less than the maximum age we might expect a Corn Snake to live in captivity and this may also be blamed on power feeding, when the cause of death is not really known. They are probably just getting “used up” by breeding them so much and die of something like old age. They are most likely way past the age they would live in the wild and I am sure they do not produce as much offspring in the wild as they do in captivity. Has anybody ever heard of a male Corn dieing at a young age due to power feeding? I have personally never had one die, where this was the suspected reason for the death. 99.9% of the time, the reason for most deaths of Corns is pure speculation anyway. Speculations is also being used to say that power feeding Corns shortens their lives. The facts to support this type of speculation does not exist and they have been taken out of thin air or made up..

I completely agree with this. I don't think enough is known to completely disregard this practice. I don't know that it should be done all of a corns life, but maybe to get a jump start on growth isn't a bad idea.

I happen to agree with Deans technique just because (in my mind) it gets hatchlings off pinkies faster and on to more nutritionally substantial food.

I also think you are correct so state that maybe when people are crying foul that these snakes are dying of being power fed that maybe it is over breeding or breeding a too young snake. I think that over breeding causes more stress than eating more frequently. It does physically age females to produce young, most wild female animals loose massive body mass every time they give birth/ lay eggs not to mention all the nutrients of food items going strait to the offspring other than the mother. This in my mind is way more stressful & potentionally harmful than feeding every 3rd day.

I understand the debate over how to feed our animals, but I think that there has to be something more substantial to back up the claims that this practice shortens these animals lives. I definitely would be intrested in a study if ever one was conducted.

 

[SnakeAround]

Just on topic; my biggest '05 weighs 65 grams and measures 25,6 inch

 

[ecreipeoj]

I found this experts opinion on the subject that has been discussed here. I have known Bob Applegate for over 25 years and he is one of the pioneers of breeding snakes in captivity. There is very few people who could possibly qualify as a better expert on the exact subject we have been talking about, raising CAPTIVE SNAKE. Bob always takes a very common since approach to breeding snakes in captivity and it has been working for him for many more years than I have known him. I agree with his opinion on the subject and I can not remember a single breeder that I have ever talked to that has been around awhile, that limit’s the growth of their future breeders on purpose.

I don’t believe you can overfeed the babies at this point; offer two, three, even four meals a week. Make sure to use size-appropriate rodents. Each meal should leave a small but noticeable lump in the snake’s body.

If your snakes accept and keep their meals down, they will grow rapidly. Size is the important thing in sexual maturity, not age. I have had Pueblan Milks breed at 9 months and Durango Mountain Kings double clutch before their second birthday. Not all snakes accept food and grow this fast, but as long as they are getting long-not fat- it’s fine. Once they near their adult size (witch varies with species and individual) and start getting fat, slow down on the food. You do not want overweight breeder snakes.

If you don’t subscribe to the Reptiles Magazine, then I highly recommend that you do. There is always a wide range of interesting articles on reptiles each and every month.

 

[Duff]

But this and all the other expert opinions I've seen in favor of agressive feeding of babies have all come from breeders whose primary goal is to get breeding stock up to weight as fast as possible to maximize or at least increase profits. You even admitted that as your motivating factor for wanting rapid growth. I think that points to a potential bias in the opinions, so I personally will take them with the appropriate grain of salt. I keep getting asked to provide scientific proof that there are long-term consequences to the practice, but I have yet to see anyone point to any scientific proof that there aren't any long term consequences. Opinons of those with an interest in one side of the debate cannot be considered proof, IMO, so I personally will continue to err on the side of caution in what I consider the best interest of the animal I have choosen to care for.

 

[Roy Munson]

I keep getting asked to provide scientific proof that there are long-term consequences to the practice, but I have yet to see anyone point to any scientific proof that there aren't any long term consequences. Opinons of those with an interest in one side of the debate cannot be considered proof, IMO, so I personally will continue to err on the side of caution in what I consider the best interest of the animal I have choosen to care for.

You made the claim that the practices described by me and others are harmful to the animal's health. The burden of proof is on you to support that claim. I still wonder if you think my three months of 3 to 4-day pinky feedings is harmful, even though I go to a six-day when they're on fuzzies.

If this is all opinion against opinion, then I'll say that what you call erring on the side of caution is what I consider to be maintenance-feeding. To me it's almost as irresponsible a practice as true power-feeding. I understand why the big breeders do it with their available stock, but I think that feeding a 6-10 gram snake once a week is erring on the side of personal convenience. But I'm unlikely to change your mind, so I just wish you the best of luck with your snakes. Like my own, I'm sure they'll be fine.

 

[Mary-Beth]

....but I think that feeding a 6-10 gram snake once a week is erring on the side of personal convenience.

AMEN!
*Hi fives Dean :wavey:

 

[Duff]

... I think that feeding a 6-10 gram snake once a week is erring on the side of personal convenience.

I know I should just let this whole thing die at this point, but one of my biggest pet peeves is people putting words in my mouth. I never said I only feed my hatchlings once a week. I feed them on a 5 day schedule.

 

[Roy Munson]

I know I should just let this whole thing die at this point, but one of my biggest pet peeves is people putting words in my mouth. I never said I only feed my hatchlings once a week. I feed them on a 5 day schedule.

Well, don't be peeved this time, because I really wasn't referring to you specifically. I can understand how you got that impression, because I addressed you immediately after the statement. I should have been clearer. If you need to see a real example of your pet peeve, you need only go back to your early posts in this thread and see where you posted your guesses at my plans and intentions as if they were facts. Here's an example:

Hope you're at least gonna be apologetic to your breeding slaves down the road when they run down early from being pumped full while young. If you're that impatient, then maybe you should just find some adults instead of buying hatchlings and racing them up to weight.

 

[Preita]

but I have yet to see anyone point to any scientific proof that there aren't any long term consequences. Opinons of those with an interest in one side of the debate cannot be considered proof, IMO, so I personally will continue to err on the side of caution in what I consider the best interest of the animal I have choosen to care for.

People who lean toward a more aggressive feeding schedule have posted opinions & articles supporting their oppinion or showing that others in the breeding comunity follow similar practices. You keep asking for proof, but you provide none yourself. We can't be expected to do the research for your side of the argument.

Yes breeders that feed aggressively are hoping to get the animals up to size. This isn't just a hobby for some people, it's a business, a livelyhood.

I tend to believe that if a hatchling wasn't hungry it wouldn't eat as often. Dean's not forcing the food down their throats, & neither is Joe, they are offering food more regularly, but you discount the fact that the snake TAKES the food offered. If there was no hunger every 3 days the snake wouldn't eat.

Also the most aggressive feeding schedules involve pinks. These are not really nutritionally substantial food items & thus be broken down & used faster. These are basically the junk of the mice, & I feel the faster they are gotten over the better. (Just MHO )

 

[cornmorphs]

JESUS, what do you people feed your snakes?
my biggest is a late june hatchling and hes 68 grams. hes miles bigger than the rest, i would say most of mine are 40/50 now.
nearly 200? thats not normal is it?,

 

[breedingcolors]

My biggest 2005 is 36gr
My biggest 2004 is 137gr

They are all feed every 5-7 days except for my slow growers or smallest hatchlings witch are feed every 4-5 days. I feed them with rats as soon as they are big enough. They seems to grow faster this way.

 

[Duff]

... You keep asking for proof ...[/QOUTE]No, I'm not the one that keeps asking for proof. I simply made a rebuttal statement to those wanting proof of a risk before agreeing there may be. Again, people putting words in my mouth.

 

[Preita]

I keep getting asked to provide scientific proof that there are long-term consequences to the practice, but I have yet to see anyone point to any scientific proof that there aren't any long term consequences.

Your right, I read that wrong.

I do maintain that though you say it's a bad practice you have shown nothing that argues for you point of view is all I'm saying. Opinions or other.

You keep regurgitating the same few lines as to why you don't feed on such an aggressive schedule. "It's natural", "It's in the best intrest of the animal" Honestly we know if neither one of these is correct just because no one has ever sat down & done a study of wild corns & their eating patterns or even captive corns fed on two entirely different schedules. I think until there is a scientific study there will never be any concrete proof.

I do believe that it was said best when said that most corns dieing is unexplainable anyways & to attribute it to overfeeding is a reach.

 

[Mary-Beth]

JESUS, what do you people feed your snakes?
my biggest is a late june hatchling and hes 68 grams. hes miles bigger than the rest, i would say most of mine are 40/50 now.
nearly 200? thats not normal is it?,

I asked everyone about theirs because I wasn't sure if it was normal or not.
Now I know it's not.
I love my little, er ah, BIG Sharon though.

 

[cornmorphs]

My biggest 2005 is 36gr
My biggest 2004 is 137gr

They are all feed every 5-7 days except for my slow growers or smallest hatchlings witch are feed every 4-5 days. I feed them with rats as soon as they are big enough. They seems to grow faster this way.

i would have thought these were more normal figures?

i have a 2 year old that is 200 grams, and seh was a slow starter

 

[Taceas]

After reviewing Dean's schedule, I personally see nothing abhorrently wrong with it. Every 3 days might be a bit excessive for me, but we're talking about pinks here. There isn't much nutrition in them, as Preita has said. Once you get them onto fuzzies, something with more nutritional value they grow better. So why screw around wasting time they could actually have spent growing?

But he's not carrying on this schedule onto the larger food items, but is knocking back the frequency to every 6 days, which is what I do around here typically. Most of my hatchlings who're still on pinks have digested it in a day, and pooped out in 2. So why wait so many days before the next feeding. And the last time I checked, there are only 1 set of 5 days in a week, so it might as well be every week.

Unlike Preita, I think snakes are like dogs in that they could literally eat themselves to death. Once they've got food on the brain, that's all they think about. Which in the wild, its natural to gorge yourself when the vittles are plentiful to fatten up for potentially lean times. Its THIS mechanism that most people use to their advantage and the snakes disadvantage. They're just doing what comes natural, despite being captive bred and living in an aquarium. Despite the mutt genetics and eons of removal from the wild, my dog, if she finds a deer carcass, she's coming home "fully loaded". Hell, I do that when I know I'm going to my favorite down-home cooking establishment.

I don't think there is "proof" regarding either method (maintenence vs Roys) as to if its actually detrimental to the health of the snake in the long run. Power-feeding to me is carrying on such an aggressive feeding schedule with ALL sizes of food throughout the snake's life. And that common-sensically would be detrimental. But doubling up and feeding more pinks bugs you?

Joe Pierce has already voiced his opinion on the matter, and he is a very respected breeder. I don't think Joe would ever do anything that compromises the health of his animals. His animals are the healthiest I've ever ordered from someone. Although I think Rich feeds on a more conservative regimine, as I remember him saying he prefers his snakes to grow slower and doesn't usually breed until they're 3 years of age, even if they're the size to do it at 2 (then again Rich has entirely too many snakes to feed more often I'd think). So I think it all boils down to personal preference. And that is something you just can't change, you just have to accept it.

I personally think you need to find a new hobby or something, stirring the pot has gotten old. At the very least, all I see of Roy is his now expensive pink orders. If you don't order snakes from Roy in the future, I'm sure its no skin off his teeth. I wouldn't do business with you either considering how outlandish your attacks have been on the forum. So I guess that just leaves more hatchlings for me in the future, so that when they get here I'll "cram food down their throats with a chopstick" every 4-5 days like all of my own hatchlings get.

 

[Duff]

I personally think you need to find a new hobby or something, stirring the pot has gotten old. At the very least, all I see of Roy is his now expensive pink orders. If you don't order snakes from Roy in the future, I'm sure its no skin off his teeth. I wouldn't do business with you either considering how outlandish your attacks have been on the forum. So I guess that just leaves more hatchlings for me in the future, so that when they get here I'll "cram food down their throats with a chopstick" every 4-5 days like all of my own hatchlings get.

I haven't been stirring the pot, I made 1 rebuttal post to the "expert opinion" post from Joe, and then a couple defensive responses to people putting words in my mouth. Other than my initial, admittedly quick response on this thread, I think I've managed to keep myself well in control and rational. I'm more than done stirring this pot, but I'm not just going to sit back and let people continue to put words in my mouth. One last point, going along with the words in my mouth thing, I never at any point made reference or inference to Roy or any one else "cramming food" down a snake's throat, yet I keep getting attacked for saying that. I've noticed it's even become a running joke in other threads (I'm not stupid, I know what people are referring to). I also never used the work "clique", which became a big part of this thread originally. As soon as people stop putting words in my mouth and letting me have it for things I never said, I'm more than willing to let this whole debate go. I feel the way I do, others feel the way they do, everyone's made their points.